When I was a kid in the early 1950's living in Pittsburgh one of the TV stations in introduction to their 6 PM new cast had a film clip of a B&O passenger train operating along the river and severing six or seven fire hoses that had been laid across the track with, with a great explosion of water.
I saw the same video several times in the "emergency operations" classes I attended back in my younger VFD days. If I remember correctly, it was cited as an example of where an Incident Command Officer gave an order to notify the RR but didn't check to make sure it had been it had been followed up.
tree68 BaltACD Not knowing the contacts for the railroads in your territory is a cardinal sin. Our dispatch has those numbers on speed dial. I can just call them, and they'll make the call. That's important on the law enforcement side than on the fire side - malfunctioning crossing protection is much more common than fires adjacent to the tracks. A problem in areas with a lot of small volunteer departments is relatively frequent turnover in the command ranks. We can hope that the knowledge gets passed along, but with any one department maybe getting one call a year involving the railroad, it's not necessarily high on anyone's list. CSX passes through twelve fire districts in the county. The short line only touches one.
BaltACD Not knowing the contacts for the railroads in your territory is a cardinal sin.
Our dispatch has those numbers on speed dial. I can just call them, and they'll make the call. That's important on the law enforcement side than on the fire side - malfunctioning crossing protection is much more common than fires adjacent to the tracks.
A problem in areas with a lot of small volunteer departments is relatively frequent turnover in the command ranks. We can hope that the knowledge gets passed along, but with any one department maybe getting one call a year involving the railroad, it's not necessarily high on anyone's list.
CSX passes through twelve fire districts in the county. The short line only touches one.
So only one district has even the potential of notifying the wrong party. Responder mentions railroad - Bingo! Call Railroad(s).
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Overmod tree68 Overmod This makes me wonder on Euclid's behalf whether special troughs between ties could be installed, ready to be easily swept out to fit a firehose at future need... Given the number of times that I can recall the need to lay hose across tracks in my area, it would be a waste of time. As MC points out, a simple phone call will stop the trains, at least for a while. Ah, but Balt has already alluded to the problem there: a simple phone call to whom? Even running to the nearest crossing and calling the number on the 'blue plate' will not help if you, in your haste, ignored the crossing of the other parallel railroad a few yards away... And I'd be tempted to look for nearby culverts before I'd go to the trouble of digging out between ties... What I was suggesting is a 'pre-dug' channel laid between two adjacent ties, with enough bending strength to hold the ties upright under load. You would put spacers in this during 'ballast regulation' and might want covers (with vents and drains, perhaps distinctively covered) in low-vandalism areas. In any case the 'digging' would be no more than clearing and sweeping the channel enough to get the hose through without puncture. A post in another thread, about girder rail alternatives, raises the possibility that this could be a metal channel actually spiked transversely to the adjacent ties, which would offer a bit more 'usable channel area' than the precast concrete I was imagining.
tree68 Overmod This makes me wonder on Euclid's behalf whether special troughs between ties could be installed, ready to be easily swept out to fit a firehose at future need... Given the number of times that I can recall the need to lay hose across tracks in my area, it would be a waste of time. As MC points out, a simple phone call will stop the trains, at least for a while.
Overmod This makes me wonder on Euclid's behalf whether special troughs between ties could be installed, ready to be easily swept out to fit a firehose at future need...
Given the number of times that I can recall the need to lay hose across tracks in my area, it would be a waste of time. As MC points out, a simple phone call will stop the trains, at least for a while.
Ah, but Balt has already alluded to the problem there: a simple phone call to whom? Even running to the nearest crossing and calling the number on the 'blue plate' will not help if you, in your haste, ignored the crossing of the other parallel railroad a few yards away...
And I'd be tempted to look for nearby culverts before I'd go to the trouble of digging out between ties...
What I was suggesting is a 'pre-dug' channel laid between two adjacent ties, with enough bending strength to hold the ties upright under load. You would put spacers in this during 'ballast regulation' and might want covers (with vents and drains, perhaps distinctively covered) in low-vandalism areas.
In any case the 'digging' would be no more than clearing and sweeping the channel enough to get the hose through without puncture.
A post in another thread, about girder rail alternatives, raises the possibility that this could be a metal channel actually spiked transversely to the adjacent ties, which would offer a bit more 'usable channel area' than the precast concrete I was imagining.
Police and Fire Departments that don't know 'the lay of the land' in their territories of responsibility are a danger to themselves and those they have been formed to protect. Not knowing the contacts for the railroads in your territory is a cardinal sin.
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alphasI had a fire chief in the suburban area around Pittsburgh tell me some years ago that piping with fire hose fittings on each end was permanently placed underneath the tracks in several key industrail locations in his area. Apparently, the hydrants on the other side of the tracks were on a different system with very low GPM capacity, so this enabled the firefighters to use a very high GPM system.
I had a fire chief in the suburban area around Pittsburgh tell me some years ago that piping with fire hose fittings on each end was permanently placed underneath the tracks in several key industrail locations in his area. Apparently, the hydrants on the other side of the tracks were on a different system with very low GPM capacity, so this enabled the firefighters to use a very high GPM system.
tree68 Overmod I do still think that digging out a crib transversely is a better approach to getting a hose across an active line ... True, but sometimes, when there's fire blowing out every window, you might tend to think "we'll deal with that later..."
Overmod I do still think that digging out a crib transversely is a better approach to getting a hose across an active line ...
True, but sometimes, when there's fire blowing out every window, you might tend to think "we'll deal with that later..."
Expediency can drive things to a bad ending without the proper protections. Laying hose across the rails of a active railroad without notifying the owner and getting the rail traffic stopped ensures a bad outcome when a train slices the hose in three.
OvermodThis makes me wonder on Euclid's behalf whether special troughs between ties could be installed, ready to be easily swept out to fit a firehose at future need...
Paul_D_North_JrOvermod - Without seeing it done, I think we're describing the same procedure.
Running rubber tires across it won't tend to cut or even displace it against something like a raised burr at the gauge corner that might cause trouble. Hence the exaggerated physical separation of each flanged wheel, in sequence, so that no matter what that flange won't come down and cause a modern Operation Moist Mop.
Naturally, if the crib can be opened enough to pass the hose through, and the subsequent inflation doesn't jack the track, you would have less trouble passing traffic (both truck and train) through, including ad hoc equipment on Brandt units (as in the cement mixer in the California tumbles into the sea thread). This makes me wonder on Euclid's behalf whether special troughs between ties could be installed, ready to be easily swept out to fit a firehose at future need...
Just call the number on the ENS sign ....soo much more effective. Then see the DOT number on the sign do its thing for pinpointing the site.
Disappointing that so many do not understand the value of that little blue sign in their cloistered existence.
I was a Port Chester N. Y. volunteer fireman when a fire erupted in a large factory that was a "steel in / steel out via rail" type of manufacuring and it was necessary to implace hose=lines under the New Haven's 4-track rail-line.
Overmod - Without seeing it done, I think we're describing the same procedure.
- PDN.
OvermodI do still think that digging out a crib transversely is a better approach to getting a hose across an active line ...
Paul_D_North_JrIf I had to get by there for some compelling reason - only access to a derailment or injury, for example - I'd raise the flanged wheels - each axle separately in this instance, because the crossing surface is also beyond - while going over the hump.
It might be simpler than that.
Remember that the tires are also 'guiding' (or can be with variable inflation pressure a la Schneider) so the flanges can be raised and the vehicle moved without derailing at low speed.
So you could reasonably 'hop' the leading flanged set over the hose, then lower it, drive the vehicle over the hose itself, then hop the trailing flange set. A little more time and attention, but much less tinker.
I do still think that digging out a crib transversely is a better approach to getting a hose across an active line ...
If I had to get by there for some compelling reason - only access to a derailment or injury, for example - I'd raise the flanged wheels - each axle separately in this instance, because the crossing surface is also beyond - while going over the hump.
On 'open track' or with less crossing beyond, wouldn't try it - too much risk of derailing while the flanged wheels are up in the air (whether intentionally raised in advance, or from going over the hump).
In any event, safer and better to find another place to 'put on'.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Firefighting/comments/7ke897/xpost_from_rpics_thats_not_how_trains_work/
Well your hi-rail truck should make it over the hose ?
alphasAssuming it was totaled, even 10 years ago a new FD aerial or tower was $1M to $1.4M depending upon whether it was a basic model or a more equiped model and also whether it was an individual purchase vs. part of a fleet purchase.
As I recall, it was a rear-mount. It was totalled. News stories gave the value of the truck as $600K, but the million dollar figure isn't far off the mark for a replacement.
Ironically, it was Truck 13...
samfp1943samfp1943 wrote the following post yesterday: In approximately the same time frame ( almost 10 years past- 04/2010) This one incident was documented in a Thread in a TRAINS Forum. See incident linked @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlUVQb1lsrU This little incident cost a Detroit area FD probably in the neighborhood of $250 K+ for their aerial truck ! Crying No idea what the damage to AMTRK was?
Assuming it was totaled, even 10 years ago a new FD aerial or tower was $1M to $1.4M depending upon whether it was a basic model or a more equiped model and also whether it was an individual purchase vs. part of a fleet purchase.
tree68 BaltACD Need to see how it survives a resonable train running over it. I do believe it's been found that the LDH doesn't like catalytic converters very well... Why someone thinks that can drive their Rolls Kanardly over the top of it simply amazes me. I suspect that, locomotive pilots not withstanding, the hose might survive a car or two rolling over it. It's plastic with reinforcement molded in. If there is a sheering force involved, of course, it would cut it.
BaltACD Need to see how it survives a resonable train running over it.
I do believe it's been found that the LDH doesn't like catalytic converters very well... Why someone thinks that can drive their Rolls Kanardly over the top of it simply amazes me.
I suspect that, locomotive pilots not withstanding, the hose might survive a car or two rolling over it. It's plastic with reinforcement molded in. If there is a sheering force involved, of course, it would cut it.
Tend to believe that the flange/rail interface creates a shearing force.
BaltACDNeed to see how it survives a resonable train running over it.
tree68 Paul of Covington Maybe those hoses are a lot tougher than I thought. In other words, I dunno. One of the vendors used to demonstrate a section of their LDH with several holes poked in it. Sprayed all over the place, but did not fail.
Paul of Covington Maybe those hoses are a lot tougher than I thought. In other words, I dunno.
One of the vendors used to demonstrate a section of their LDH with several holes poked in it. Sprayed all over the place, but did not fail.
Need to see how it survives a resonable train running over it.
Paul of CovingtonMaybe those hoses are a lot tougher than I thought. In other words, I dunno.
In approximately the same time frame ( almost 10 years past- 04/2010) This one incident was documented in a Thread in a TRAINS Forum.
See incident linked @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlUVQb1lsrU
This little incident cost a Detroit area FD probably in the neighborhood of $250 K+ for their aerial truck ! No idea what the damage to AMTRK was?
Lithonia OperatorIn the video from Maine, the engine seems to snag the hose, not cut it. What do you figure it got caught on? The hose was too low to be grabbed by anything in the pilot area. Could the wheels have pushed the hose along, like a crosstie gets pushed along for ballast spreading? That seems extremely unlikely to me, at that speed. But what did happen?
I was thinking that it might have been the "watermelon seed effect", the way you shoot a watermelon seed across the room by squeezing it at one end, similar to what you mentioned about the crosstie. The smooth steel of the rail and the wheels might have squirted it forward. But after looking at the clip with a lot of start-stop, it looked like the first set of wheels rolled over the hose and the second set pushed it forward. Also, it looked like the hose remained intact, which means the first set of wheels rolled over it without cutting it. It's not clear enough to tell for sure. Maybe those hoses are a lot tougher than I thought. In other words, I dunno.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Lithonia Operatorn the video from Maine, the engine seems to snag the hose, not cut it. What do you figure it got caught on? The hose was too low to be grabbed by anything in the pilot area. Could the wheels have pushed the hose along, like a crosstie gets pushed along for ballast spreading? That seems extremely unlikely to me, at that speed.
That's either 4" or 5" large diameter hose (not always easy to spot without some sort of reference). The minimum clearance above the rail for a pilot, snowplow, etc, is 3".
Dangling air hose?
As was said in "The Way It Was" by F. H. Howard in Trains in the mid-1970's (I think):
"The hose was in 3 pieces, the middle one exactly 4' 8-1/2" long . . . "
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In the video from Maine, the engine seems to snag the hose, not cut it.
What do you figure it got caught on? The hose was too low to be grabbed by anything in the pilot area. Could the wheels have pushed the hose along, like a crosstie gets pushed along for ballast spreading? That seems extremely unlikely to me, at that speed.
But what did happen?
Yep, it helps to call the right railroad. When in doubt, live a little and call two.
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