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What Condition is Your Condition In?

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 29, 2020 3:49 PM

Semper Vaporo
If "the Flu" is worse than "COVID-19", then how come the hospitals have not been overrun until now?  

They have.  Our local hospitals have gone on "diversion" a number of times this winter.  That means they don't have any available beds.

From the University of Minnesota:  "In its latest estimates on flu impact today, the CDC said the disease has sickened from 36 million to 41.3 million people this season through Apr 13, of whom 16.7 million to 19.4 million sought medical care. In addition, the disease has hospitalized 502,000 to 610,000 patients and killed 34,400 to 57,300."

From the same source: "The percentage of deaths due to pneumonia and influenza dropped to 6.6%, down from 7.0% the week before and below the epidemic threshold of 7.0% for the week."

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2019/04/us-flu-still-elevated-dropping-deaths-high-57000

A couple of weeks ago I checked the current reported flu cases for my county.  It was over 200.  Right now just five have been officially confirmed to have the virus.

Right now, per statistics on worldometer, the US death rate is 1.75%.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, March 29, 2020 7:40 PM

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, March 29, 2020 7:44 PM

If you look at 'coronavirus' you will get an idea of the type and structure involveed.  It is similar to some of the viral types causing 'common colds'.

The immune responses to viral infection are interesting and complex; many of them involve a generation of 'recognition' of features on the viral 'envelope' and then creation of ways to attack something displaying those features.  A 'novel' virus is one whose envelope is not recognized yet by the immune system, and against which the natural process of defense will be ineffective for some period of time.

The novel coronavirus in Wuhan differs from other similar coronavirus species in 8 key places, one of which is a spike protein highly specific to the human ACE2 receptor on many cell types.  This receptor is a key part of what is called the RAAS system, and effective selective infection of cells relatively rich in these receptors may be a key inducer of the cytokine storm (see interleukins 6 and 11) that is the current leading theorized cause of ARDS (which is the actual thing killing many of the victims)

When the virus was originally isolated and sequenced it was preliminarily called nCoV-2019, for 'novel coronavirus found in 2019'.  Upon further research this was deemed structurally similar to the coronavirus isolated in SARS, from 2003, and the designation was changed to SARS-CoV-2.  As of a couple of weeks ago there were two distinguishable strains of this (designated S and L for different amino acids in key locations on an envelope protein) but I don't think there is a formal naming convention to reflect that yet.

COVID-19 is a different naming convention, and stands for COronaVIrus Disease (presenting first in 20)19.  [Technically this should be pronounced with a long 'i', like the I in "excimer", but don't hold your breath waiting for it].  This is not a virus; it's the disease resulting from the virus infection.  As the ARDS in particular is an immune-system overreaction ... much as in the 1918 influenza outbreaks, but perhaps different in induction ... and not a direct viral-infection result, this is a better term to describe the lethality.  But not the antiviral aspects per se.  This can be a harder distinction to make than some media people ... and politicians and such ... care to make.

Influenza is a separate disease, involving very different virus types with different immune responses.  These have a habit of exhibiting more or less novel antigen presentation while retaining the ability to infect effectively and then multiply rapidly in the human body.  In particular the H1N1 type has caused periodic epidemics (1918-20 and 2009 being two famous ones, and most of the 'death toll' in the current under-the-radar 'fly epidemic' I think attributable to H1N1 clones).  This has essentially NOTHING TO DO with therapies or even approaches for coronavirus, and indeed some default magic-bullet treatments for 'flu' in emergency rooms -- notably Tamiflu and prednisone -- have already been demonstrated to do more harm than good in cases that have progressed or promise to progress to ARDS.

A simple way to remember the difference is to ask how far you'd get with the manual for a 7.3 Powerstroke trying to repair an 8-71T.  Or if you intended to use special tools or parts in the repair.  

 

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Posted by SALfan on Sunday, March 29, 2020 8:36 PM

blue streak 1

SAL.  Unconfirmed rumors that Albany hot spot came from attendance at a funeral ?

 

Came from looking at the Johns Hopkins University map of where cases are happening.  Three or four counties in the Atlanta area are bright red, so is Dougherty County (where Albany is located).  Those counties in/near Atlanta and Dougherty County are the only ones in GA with that high an incidence of corona virus. 

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Posted by MMLDelete on Monday, March 30, 2020 9:41 AM

Semper Vaporo

I have 3 thermometers... one digital and 2 glass bulb/mercury types... they all read within .2 ° of each other, but I can't get any of them up over 97.2°... how would I know if I need to contact my dorktor.

 
Do you mean that if you stick them into a pot of hot water on the stove, none would read above 97.2? I find it hard to believe you would have three bum thermometers, all similarly wrong.
 
So I'm guessing you are referring to your own temp. Which must be around 97.2. Don't know why you'd have a low temp, but I'm pretty sure if it was Covid or flu, your temp would be above 98.6, not below.
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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Monday, March 30, 2020 10:01 AM

Lithonia Operator
 Semper Vaporo

I have 3 thermometers... one digital and 2 glass bulb/mercury types... they all read within .2 ° of each other, but I can't get any of them up over 97.2°... how would I know if I need to contact my dorktor. 

 
Do you mean that if you stick them into a pot of hot water on the stove, none would read above 97.2? I find it hard to believe you would have three bum thermometers, all similarly wrong.
 
So I'm guessing you are referring to your own temp. Which must be around 97.2. Don't know why you'd have a low temp, but I'm pretty sure if it was Covid or flu, your temp would be above 98.6, not below.

 
In my mouth, either separately or combination. If I put them under the hot water faucet they can get up to well over 105 and match my kitchen meat thermometer within a couple of tenths of a degree when in the same stream of water.
 
I have never registered 'normal' (98.6°) on any thermometer, but the older I get the lower the max number I can get on any of them.
 
Oh, I also tried one of my remote non-contact thermometers, pointing it at my forehead, my temple, behind my ear and under my tongue...
 
Forehead -- 94°
Temple  --  94°
Behind ear -- 96°
Under tongue -- 96.6°
 
I think the condition of my condition is that I have one foot in the grave and I am digging furiously to make the hole deeper.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, March 30, 2020 11:04 AM

In the world of covid-19 I have been shingled, at least that is what my doctor says.  Aggrivating, not debilitating.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Monday, March 30, 2020 11:17 AM

   Semper, that reminds me:  a few years ago, I was reading the instructions for a new digital thermometer, and it listed "normal" readings for different locations (under tongue, armpit, etc.) and they were all one or two degrees lower than 98.6°.  This surprised me since I remembered reading 98.6° consistently under my tongue back in my thirties and earlier.  Lately, I have been reading lower temps, so maybe it's as you suggested, I'm sinking slowly into the crabgrass.

_____________ 

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Monday, March 30, 2020 11:19 AM

BaltACD

In the world of covid-19 I have been shingled, at least that is what my doctor says.  Aggrivating, not debilitating.

 

   Does that mean you now shed water?

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Posted by York1 on Monday, March 30, 2020 11:24 AM

Semper Vaporo
I have never registered 'normal' (98.6°) on any thermometer, but the older I get the lower the max number I can get on any of them.

Your post was interesting, so I looked up some info.  I read that normal body temperature for different people can range from 97° to 99°.  It even said that the "normal" temp of 98.6° was set in the 1800s, and that many believe the "normal" is actually closer to 98.2°.

I had never heard of this before.  I just assumed everyone was 98.6°.

York1 John       

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 30, 2020 12:10 PM

York1
I had never heard of this before.  I just assumed everyone was 98.6°.

Heck, there's even a song about it...  (There's your ear worm for today.)

I saw a story recently, I think in the paper, that 98.6 was, indeed, not "normal," following pretty much what's been said here.

So it does follow that it's less the temperature itself than the deviation from normal that is significant.  

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 PM

BaltACD

In the world of covid-19 I have been shingled, at least that is what my doctor says.  Aggrivating, not debilitating.

 

You've been shingled? Was that a hair cut? Or was that an attack of the shingles?

Be careful when taking medication for the shingles. A friend told me of his experience--the irritation would be so bad once a day that he would get up and run out of the house; his doctor gave some medicine and after taking it, he would have two running fits a day. My friend did not tell me what the medicine was.

Johnny

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Posted by MMLDelete on Monday, March 30, 2020 12:18 PM

Semper Vaporo

 

 
Lithonia Operator
 Semper Vaporo

I have 3 thermometers... one digital and 2 glass bulb/mercury types... they all read within .2 ° of each other, but I can't get any of them up over 97.2°... how would I know if I need to contact my dorktor. 

 
Do you mean that if you stick them into a pot of hot water on the stove, none would read above 97.2? I find it hard to believe you would have three bum thermometers, all similarly wrong.
 
So I'm guessing you are referring to your own temp. Which must be around 97.2. Don't know why you'd have a low temp, but I'm pretty sure if it was Covid or flu, your temp would be above 98.6, not below.
 

 

 
In my mouth, either separately or combination. If I put them under the hot water faucet they can get up to well over 105 and match my kitchen meat thermometer within a couple of tenths of a degree when in the same stream of water.
 
I have never registered 'normal' (98.6°) on any thermometer, but the older I get the lower the max number I can get on any of them.
 
Oh, I also tried one of my remote non-contact thermometers, pointing it at my forehead, my temple, behind my ear and under my tongue...
 
Forehead -- 94°
Temple  --  94°
Behind ear -- 96°
Under tongue -- 96.6°
 
I think the condition of my condition is that I have one foot in the grave and I am digging furiously to make the hole deeper.
 

You are, literally, one cool dude. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, March 30, 2020 12:33 PM

Deggesty
 
BaltACD

In the world of covid-19 I have been shingled, at least that is what my doctor says.  Aggrivating, not debilitating. 

You've been shingled? Was that a hair cut? Or was that an attack of the shingles? 

Be careful when taking medication for the shingles. A friend told me of his experience--the irritation would be so bad once a day that he would get up and run out of the house; his doctor gave some medicine and after taking it, he would have two running fits a day. My friend did not tell me what the medicine was.

A seven day prescription of Valacyclovir.  We will see what the effects are - good or bad.  I attempted to get the Shingles vaccine last year, but the facility didn't have any.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by York1 on Monday, March 30, 2020 1:16 PM

BaltACD
A seven day prescription of Valacyclovir.  We will see what the effects are - good or bad.  I attempted to get the Shingles vaccine last year, but the facility didn't have any.

 

Good luck, Balt.  Hopefully the medicine keeps the pain down.

York1 John       

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, March 30, 2020 1:26 PM

Is coronavirus a living organism or just a chemical?

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 30, 2020 1:43 PM

Euclid

Is coronavirus a living organism or just a chemical?

It's a virus.  It must get inside a host organism to replicate.  The common cold is caused by a virus, as is the flu.  So is rabies, for that matter.  The SARS outbreak was caused by another strain of coronavirus.

There are a number of viruses.  Coronavirus is just one.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Euclid on Monday, March 30, 2020 2:03 PM

tree68
 
Euclid

Is coronavirus a living organism or just a chemical?

 

It's a virus.  It must get inside a host organism to replicate.  The common cold is caused by a virus, as is the flu.  So is rabies, for that matter.  The SARS outbreak was caused by another strain of coronavirus.

There are a number of viruses.  Coronavirus is just one.

 

But is it alive like a plant or animal, or is it just a chemcical compound or molecule?

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 30, 2020 2:18 PM

Euclid
But is it alive like a plant or animal, or is it just a chemcical compound or molecule?

Google is your friend.  I could look it up and c&p here, or you can just read it yourself firsthand.  It is not just a chemical compound or a molecule, however.

 

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Euclid on Monday, March 30, 2020 2:58 PM
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Posted by Overmod on Monday, March 30, 2020 3:10 PM

Take coronavirus as an example.  This is basically a complex molecule of RNA (ribonucleic acid) that has the capability of entering a complex cell and subverting the complicated cellular machinery of 'life' in ways that make copies of itself, plus some other key materials.

In order to protect the RNA from being lysed or otherwise denatured or consumed, some of what the virus has 'manufactured' is a structured protein coat (called a 'capsid') that self-assembles itself from constituent geometric units.  It also has more complex proteins, collectively called an 'envelope', among which are some that by configuration act to bind to features of cell walls and, if there's a fit, preferentially invade the cell walls and signal the capsid to release the RNA 'payload' into the cell.

You can essentially 'kill' a virus in a variety of ways, which act to ruin the delicate construction of the RNA genome inside the capsid.  Once the virus loses the ability to make any of a large number of critical components, it may no longer be able to compel or persuade the cellular machinery to work effectively to replicate it sufficiently to be infectious -- at which point natural processes within cells or in effective parts and systems of the immune response tend to destroy any remaining parts that trigger response.  Or to implement a well-conserved cellular response called 'apoptosis', which is the body's way of getting abnormal or 'unrecognized' cells to not only shut their internal machinery off, but cut themselves up for easy disposal.  Much of this has been documented within the past 20 years, and to me at least it's fascinating.  You will note that even viral genomes in active process of reproduction may be 'caught' by apoptotic response and cut up and destroyed by the same internal processes, shy of being targeted by components of the immune system response directly.

A virus cannot produce anything without an existing, and operational, cell which has key susceptibilities.  It is only an assemblage of complex molecules ... much like an only slightly less lethal aberration, a prion (which is a human protein structurally near-correct but that folds into operative shape a slightly different -- and energetically preferred -- way.)  But bring it into contact a with susceptible cell, and all the subsequent steps to infection, replication, cell lysis and assembly of new 'virus particles' will take place as "programmed", just as if intelligently directed by life.

Different antiviral strategies, and the sorts of things that defeat them or make them too dangerous or toxic for medical use, follow from this.  The reason 78% alcohol is an 'ideal' strength for actual coronaviral sanitizing is that this is the concentration that just solubilizes envelope proteins enough to allow alcohol to penetrate to the RNA genome and denature it (which occurs in about 2 min. after wet contact).  Higher alcohol concentration results in the envelope becoming impenetrable to inward diffusion of alcohol, so the genome stays intact ... and after the alcohol in the envelope has diffused or evaporated away, the spike proteins responsible for infectious attachment may re-self-assemble and the particle become infectious again upon contact and orientation.

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, March 30, 2020 3:59 PM

Sombody sent me a coronavirus information sheet from Johns Hopkins University.  I don't have the link, but in the document, it says this:

* The virus is not a living organism, but a protein molecule (DNA) covered by a protective layer of lipid (fat), which, when absorbed by the cells of the ocular, nasal or buccal mucosa, changes their genetic code. (mutation) and convert them into aggressor and multiplier cells.
 
* Since the virus is not a living organism but a protein molecule, it is not killed, but decays on its own. The disintegration time depends on the temperature, humidity and type of material where it lies.
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Posted by cx500 on Monday, March 30, 2020 7:43 PM

A little light relief.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0ci5EYb9qA

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 30, 2020 7:47 PM

A student an an area university tested positive, but wonders why he's in isolation, as he doesn't feel sick.

Makes one wonder how many others are in this situation.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Monday, March 30, 2020 8:06 PM

tree68

Makes one wonder how many others are in this situation.

WAY TOO many.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by 54light15 on Monday, March 30, 2020 8:12 PM

cx500- Judging from the comments on YT that song has gone...nah I won't say it. 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, March 30, 2020 8:21 PM

SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA, not a DNA-based virus.  It uses a different set of cellular 'machinery' from DNA-based viruses, and you might find the differences interesting.

Infection does not progress to changing the cellular genome directly (as a DNA virus can) but deals with protein synthesis more directly.

The specificity of SARS-CoV-2 is to certain cell-surface receptors found in relatively large numbers on those tissues.

Someone has a really wack idea of how viral infection and replication work.  A cell affected by a RNA virus does not 'mutate' into 'aggressor cells' (on oncogenic tumor tissue) but it can prime elements of the immune system to attack it, as well as recognized virus, and that response can involve induction of (irreversible) apoptosis.  If you study the particular cellular specificity and shifting antigens of HIV you will see part of the particular mechanism involved in that.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, March 30, 2020 11:17 PM

tree68

A student an an area university tested positive, but wonders why he's in isolation, as he doesn't feel sick.

Makes one wonder how many others are in this situation.

 

At least around 45000 reported cases like this in China as of March 2019.

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 1:20 AM

York1

 

Semper Vaporo
I have never registered 'normal' (98.6°) on any thermometer, but the older I get the lower the max number I can get on any of them.

Your post was interesting, so I looked up some info.  I read that normal body temperature for different people can range from 97° to 99°.  It even said that the "normal" temp of 98.6° was set in the 1800s, and that many believe the "normal" is actually closer to 98.2°.

I had never heard of this before.  I just assumed everyone was 98.6°.

The "average" temperature was found by one researcher to be 37C (not 37.0C) with the implication that temp may vary by 0.5C from that. 37.0C is 98.6F.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:23 AM

Semper Vaporo
WAY TOO many.

One could argue that not enough have been infected.  In theory, those who have had it are now immune and will be available to take care of those of us who have managed to dodge it so far.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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