What is a signal awareness form?
Is that something on which an engineer notes (checks off?) that he saw the signals, and what their aspects were? For every signal on the run?
Or is it an advisory to the engineer, informing him/her what signals they will encounter along the route?
Still in training.
It's a log kept by the conductor.
Our's is called a Conductor's Report. Our instructions have them log all signals passed that are less than Clear, and I believe the speed at which they were passed. They are also to mark that the signal was called out between crewmembers in the cab. Also logged are defect detectors and messages received, temporary speed restriction flags and delays. It is also used as the Switch Position Awareness Form, noting time switches are used where required.
Beyond logging signals, those from other railroads would have to say what other info, if any, their railroad requires.
Jeff
jeffhergertIt's a log kept by the conductor. Our's is called a Conductor's Report. Our instructions have them log all signals passed that are less than Clear, and I believe the speed at which they were passed. They are also to mark that the signal was called out between crewmembers in the cab. Also logged are defect detectors and messages received, temporary speed restriction flags and delays. It is also used as the Switch Position Awareness Form, noting time switches are used where required. Beyond logging signals, those from other railroads would have to say what other info, if any, their railroad requires. Jeff
CSX requires signals and all the items Jeff identified to be announced by the crew on the Road Radio Channel - no need to remove crewmen's attention to write things down. The only written record is to be the Switch Position Awareness Form and even that gets communicated over the Road Radio Channel when the information is communicated to the Train Dispatcher,
In concert with the Radio Rules, when these things are acknowledged the train must properly identify itself, its direction and the track it is operating on.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks, Jeff and Balt.
There were several mentions of the SAF in the NTSB interviews with the Amtrak Cascades crew.
I have to wonder how on a passenger train, when the conductor is back in the train and interacting with passengers, how he could reliably see every signal. That would seem to me to be virtually impossible. Besides the conductor being busy, at night there are bad reflections on the windows from lights inside the car. And aren't block signals usually positioned higher than the top of the windows on a single-level coach, meaning the conductor would have to run to window every mile or so (often from the wrong side of the train, then duck and look up.?
Personally, I think passenger trains should have firemen. Period.
(Of course, I also think half the engines should be steam locomotives, and all freights should have cabooses. And all orders should get hooped up ... )
The form is not an FRA requirement, but something the individual railroads that use them came up with. Ours is only required to be kept by conductors of through freight trains and locals.
jeffhergert It's a log kept by the conductor. Our's is called a Conductor's Report. Our instructions have them log all signals passed that are less than Clear, and I believe the speed at which they were passed. They are also to mark that the signal was called out between crewmembers in the cab. Also logged are defect detectors and messages received, temporary speed restriction flags and delays. It is also used as the Switch Position Awareness Form, noting time switches are used where required. Beyond logging signals, those from other railroads would have to say what other info, if any, their railroad requires. Jeff
We only started doing this about a year ago. CN calls them CTC signal log forms.
CN requires that the indications of approach signals to a controlled location, and any other signal less than clear be written on the form, along with the speed and time. We also have to make a radio broadcast at each mile ending in the number five (5, 15, 25....), which must include the lead engine number, direction, and any upcoming restrictions before the next broadcast location. The "mile five" broadcast is also required in OCS (dark) territory, where it replaced a previously required broadcast one to three miles before each station. The "mile five" broadcast information is also to be written on the signal log form, along with detector readings.
Canada does not yet have the SPAF, but I believe it will appear here in the not too distant future. All the Canadian railways have had a lot of incidents where main track switches have been left in improper positions over the last few years.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Balt & Jeff and others, I am wondering how much "Stepping On" is occuring with the calling of these reports on the radio. I have noted a number of incidents of dispatchers channels where a crew's call gets garbled . another train's radio
Electroliner 1935 Balt & Jeff and others, I am wondering how much "Stepping On" is occuring with the calling of these reports on the radio. I have noted a number of incidents of dispatchers channels where a crew's call gets garbled . another train's radio
Lithonia Operator Electroliner 1935 Balt & Jeff and others, I am wondering how much "Stepping On" is occuring with the calling of these reports on the radio. I have noted a number of incidents of dispatchers channels where a crew's call gets garbled . another train's radio And I wonder how far even non-stepped-on radio calls can be heard. How in-touch with, say, the dispatcher, are trains these days? Are there repeater towers that cover most/all remote locations? (I'm talking about Class 1s and large regionals.) And Dude, are those required radio calls recorded, either at the train or at the dispatcher's office?
As I recollect on the RF&P Sub between CP M Street at the North End and CP Greendale on the South End a distance of 105 miles there are 8 radio transmitter/recievers available to the Train Dispatcher.
Every channel/transmitter the Train Dispatcher logs his radio/telephone console on to is recorded while the Dispatcher is on that channel. Locomotive radios have a range of approximately 10 miles (more or less depending on a host of atmospheric and geographical conditions). Sometimes two radio towers will activate when a train tones in the Dispatcher - there will generally be better reception by both the train and the Dispatcher on one or the other of the channels.
Once a train tones in the Dispatcher, the Dispatcher will usher the conversation to take place on the Dispatcher's Channel for the territory because of the likelyhood of any extended conversation on the Road Channel being 'walked on' by other using the Road Channel. Even with multiple radio transmitters and repeaters there are still 'dead spots' where for whatever the reason, radio waves will not reach. In as much as normal signal spacing these days is approximately 3 miles, with train lengths of 2 miles or more - when trains are running on Clear Signals they are normally spaced far enough apart that they won't walk on each other. Trains in opposite directions will communicate with each other as they pass. Some Dispatchers, when they have time, will monitor the Road Channel and it will be recorded while they are monitoring it.
Recording of the radio is a tool that is used to confirm the Train Dispatchers communications, not so much train crews compliance with radio rules.
CSX conductors operating out of New Castle, Pa. were required to record all signal indications, the speed at which the signals were passed and the time. This started around the time of the Conrail merger.
Around the same time, radio transmissions, especially around Willard, Oh. were constantly being walked on by others. With all the signal calling, defect detector transmissions, calling track maintenance foreman for permission through their work areas, trains talking to each other, etc. there was rarely any dead air. Two or more people would try to start talking at once.
Lithonia OperatorIs that something on which an engineer notes (checks off?) that he saw the signals, and what their aspects were? For every signal on the run?
Just as a reminder: I believe the engineer is not allowed to write anything while the train is moving, presumably including checkmarks on a list with milepost references.
This is precisely the wrong sort of shifting of foreground attention that leads to problems with train handling and fatigue when given 'safety critical' emphasis, and should rightly be left to conductors.
Radio range: Conditions can vary widely, even on the short-term.
I am an amateur radio operator. I conduct a net several mornings a week which operates on a repeater some fifty miles away.
Most mornings I get about a half scale signal from the repeater on my base station. Some days I'll get nearly 3/4 scale, and some days I can hardly hear it.
I've seen the incoming signal vary even during transmission.
Last I knew, each of the base stations along the CSX St Lawrence Sub had a different tone-up, so the DS wouild only get it on one base. They added a few bases a few years ago, probably due to narrowbanding of the VHF frequencies, so that may have changed.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I don't know about others, but we're only required to announce signals over the radio that are more restrictive than an advance approach. Really, any signal that requires stopping at the next signal, being at restricted speed at the next signal, passing a signal requiring restricted speed or (after being authorized past) passing a signal displaying stop indication.
We're also required to announce over the radio when we are stopped by a signal requiring a stop to be made.
There's a lot that's required to be written down, but not all of it requires a radio announcement.
But how is a single person the cab able to document while moving ?
ORNHOOWith the adoption of inward facing cab cameras, this might be an opportune time for american railroads to adopt the "point and call" system universally used in Japan.
On CN we now have to do that when using hand-operated switches.
SFbrkmnNo documenting of clear signals but everything else required to be filled on the sheet. As bonus, I rank the trip just completed by drawing either a happy face or a frown. Lots of frowns of late. In addition I never turn my form in. I keep them in stock for 30 days then discard. If someone wants to look at it, I will then make a copy and turn the original form in. Never have been asked for a form yet
Our conductors have to keep them in their possesion for 5 trips and present them to a manager when requested. And it's not unusual when being debriefed after a structured field test for a manager to ask to see the logs.
I noticed in the KCT instructions that I found (noted in a different thread) that they have an actual form that shows signal locations with boxes to be checked off of all possible signal indications that can be found on the KCT.
This thread brought back a memory from many yrs ago involving the SAFs. I was not driecetly involved but did witness it. In the crew lobby there was a wooden box where the signal papers and any authority forms used in that trip were turned in. On this day the box was totally full w/papers sticking out the door slot. There was room for no more. Condr walks around the corner to get the TM. Boss comes out, w/his key, unlocks the door. One of the latches breaks off w/the door hanging by the other hinge. Papers fall out onto floor. TM is pretty preturbed by now, takes the papers that fell out and what was left inside, tosses them into the big 55 gallon trash can. He mumbles something like "we never look these anyway" or close to that Then the cleaning lady shows up to do her work and no more than 15 min later, all those signal/authroity forms that just came out of the box into the trash can then made its way to the dumpster outside . .Just another normal dysfunctional day on the property.
SFbrkmnThis thread brought back a memory from many yrs ago involving the SAFs. I was not driecetly involved but did witness it. In the crew lobby there was a wooden box where the signal papers and any authority forms used in that trip were turned in. On this day the box was totally full w/papers sticking out the door slot. There was room for no more. Condr walks around the corner to get the TM. Boss comes out, w/his key, unlocks the door. One of the latches breaks off w/the door hanging by the other hinge. Papers fall out onto floor. TM is pretty preturbed by now, takes the papers that fell out and what was left inside, tosses them into the big 55 gallon trash can. He mumbles something like "we never look these anyway" or close to that Then the cleaning lady shows up to do her work and no more than 15 min later, all those signal/authroity forms that just came out of the box into the trash can then made its way to the dumpster outside . .Just another normal dysfunctional day on the property.
All well and good - then a incident happens and the TM has to dig through the 'full box' and find the appropriate documentation.
99.999% of all saved documentation is never accessed once it has been 'saved', however that 0.001% can potentially mean life or death to the company.
Never knew about this, but my knowledge of how it was done goes back to the days of 3 men in cab and 2-3 on rear when my grandfather was conductor. Good point about passenger trains today, the conductor is not in the cab but busy with passengers etc. and no time to be running and looking out. When I was on Texas Eagle last summer, a storm near Joliet knocked out the signals and at every one before entering the block, the engineer had to clear it with dispatch. And the conductor had to go out and physically throw switches as needed. But I still say two people should be in the cab, what if engineer gets sick or passes out, someone else can take over. Would probably have prevented the terrible wreck in Philly 2015, another set of eyes could have helped the engineer stay focused on where he was and help watch the speed limit. Until then, I did not realize Amtrak did not have two in the cab.
Sunnyland Never knew about this, but my knowledge of how it was done goes back to the days of 3 men in cab and 2-3 on rear when my grandfather was conductor. Good point about passenger trains today, the conductor is not in the cab but busy with passengers etc. and no time to be running and looking out. When I was on Texas Eagle last summer, a storm near Joliet knocked out the signals and at every one before entering the block, the engineer had to clear it with dispatch. And the conductor had to go out and physically throw switches as needed. But I still say two people should be in the cab, what if engineer gets sick or passes out, someone else can take over. Would probably have prevented the terrible wreck in Philly 2015, another set of eyes could have helped the engineer stay focused on where he was and help watch the speed limit. Until then, I did not realize Amtrak did not have two in the cab.
Johnny
Most MU car operations have only one man up front. IC electrics had a conductor and one or two trainmen in addition to the motorman South Shore had a conductor plus one to three collectors depending on the length of the train since doors and steps were all opened manually.
I would hope they knew where they were, Deggesty. If not the whole train is in trouble. Like the train that was directed in wrong direction for a while and then they had to come back and start all over again. I think it was conductor who messed up and maybe in PA, but I do remember reading about it. ha ha but was not funny to them
Sunnyland I would hope they knew where they were, Deggesty. If not the whole train is in trouble. Like the train that was directed in wrong direction for a while and then they had to come back and start all over again. I think it was conductor who messed up and maybe in PA, but I do remember reading about it. ha ha but was not funny to them
It may have been the Dispatcher who accidentally lined them to the wrong route. I don't recall exactly what happened.
When operating under signal indication it is not necessary to communicate verbally with the Dispatcher. And at many junctions, crossovers or control points the train crew cannot tell which way they are heading from signal indications alone. If a routing error occurs the train may have to continue down the "wrong" route for some distance before being routed back toward its original, correct path.
I've seen the same thing happen with local freights that have to switch a customer on a particular track.
SD70Dude Sunnyland I would hope they knew where they were, Deggesty. If not the whole train is in trouble. Like the train that was directed in wrong direction for a while and then they had to come back and start all over again. I think it was conductor who messed up and maybe in PA, but I do remember reading about it. ha ha but was not funny to them It may have been the Dispatcher who accidentally lined them to the wrong route. I don't recall exactly what happened. When operating under signal indication it is not necessary to communicate verbally with the Dispatcher. And at many junctions, crossovers or control points the train crew cannot tell which way they are heading from signal indications alone. If a routing error occurs the train may have to continue down the "wrong" route for some distance before being routed back toward its original, correct path. I've seen the same thing happen with local freights that have to switch a customer on a particular track.
Misrouting has happened more than once at Control Point AF on CSX's RF&P Sub.
Signal Indication is the same if a train is being crossed over to remain on CSX tracks to Fredericksburg or is being routed to NS tracks toward Manassas.
The misrouting is the Dispatchers error and is normally caused by getting bad information from the Amtrak operator a K Tower in Union Station misidentifying trains departing WUS.
BaltACD has happened more than once at Control Point AF on CSX's RF&P Sub. Signal Indication is the same if a train is being crossed over to remain on CSX tracks to Fredericksburg or is being routed to NS tracks toward Manassas. The misrouting is the Dispatchers error and is normally caused by getting bad information from the Amtrak operator a K Tower in Union Station misidentifying trains departing WUS.
has happened more than once at Control Point AF on CSX's RF&P Sub.
The situation at AF and a few other locations IMHO needs a routing indicator to prevent needless mis routing. At AF the southbound signals on all signals could have a white box the would indicate one of the following. The signals indications aspects would still indicate max operating speed thru CP and beyond.
CSX CSX NS NS .
1 2 1 2
Is there a CSX 3 or 4 beyond AF ?
A while back, one thread had a diagram of the tracks in the Alexandria area--and it showed the former RF&P main tracks as 2 and 3; I do not remember if it showed a track 1. Indeed, beween Richmond and the Potomac, 2 and 3 were the main tracks, with isolated segments of track 1. The diagram showed the location of Seminary, which I never saw in a Southern ETT even though it was mentioned in the special instructions.
I printed the diagram--and, of course, when I want to refer to it, I cannot find it.
blue streak 1 BaltACD has happened more than once at Control Point AF on CSX's RF&P Sub. Signal Indication is the same if a train is being crossed over to remain on CSX tracks to Fredericksburg or is being routed to NS tracks toward Manassas. The misrouting is the Dispatchers error and is normally caused by getting bad information from the Amtrak operator a K Tower in Union Station misidentifying trains departing WUS. The situation at AF and a few other locations IMHO needs a routing indicator to prevent needless mis routing. At AF the southbound signals on all signals could have a white box the would indicate one of the following. The signals indications aspects would still indicate max operating speed thru CP and beyond. CSX CSX NS NS . 1 2 1 2 Is there a CSX 3 or 4 beyond AF ?
Balt, do you have any idea as to why the RF&P numbers its mains as it does? Ever since I obtained an ETT several years back, I have wondered about this matter.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.