divebardave The stigma of suicide can be laid at the feet of the Catholic Church and the Fuedal system that it arose from, Could not have a Catholic Funeral,Could not be buired in a Catholic Cemetary,Could not collect the full amount of Life Insurance (often provided by fraturnal insuarnce like Knights of Columbus or Holy Name Society), Name was whispered in hush tones- In english common law one life belongs to the state or the king and taking ones own life could have civil consequnces in terms of Inhertance and property.--- The legal theory is that it is the king and the state that is harmed by the loss of there chattel (you)and that is why the state prosecutes crimes such as murderand is under no obligation to order compisation to the victim. English Common Law was carried over by the American Colonies and then the independent United States as the legal system of what they knew..
The stigma of suicide can be laid at the feet of the Catholic Church and the Fuedal system that it arose from, Could not have a Catholic Funeral,Could not be buired in a Catholic Cemetary,Could not collect the full amount of Life Insurance (often provided by fraturnal insuarnce like Knights of Columbus or Holy Name Society), Name was whispered in hush tones- In english common law one life belongs to the state or the king and taking ones own life could have civil consequnces in terms of Inhertance and property.--- The legal theory is that it is the king and the state that is harmed by the loss of there chattel (you)and that is why the state prosecutes crimes such as murderand is under no obligation to order compisation to the victim. English Common Law was carried over by the American Colonies and then the independent United States as the legal system of what they knew..
Johnny
- No inherently divisive discussions or signature messages. Hot-button topics like guns, abortion, religion, immigration, and crime aren't welcome, for the same reasons as political discussions and signatures. We all have our own views, and this isn’t the place to share them. Remember, this is a railroading forum.
I agree that we have gotten a little off the rails here...however as the OP here I ask that we concitrate on how we can prevent suicide by train and what if anything the railroad companies are doing for there drivers and the families involved.
"More than 300 times last year, people walked onto railroad tracks to intentionally put themselves in the path of a train — and in 266 cases they successfully committed suicide.August 6, 2018 at 11:01 p.m. CDT From Washington Post 266 people took there life by train.
That data, recorded by the Federal Railroad Administration, is based on the conclusions of state or local police who investigated each case. The number of what’s known as “suicides by rail” is the lowest in seven years, and preliminary data from the first four months of 2018 suggest the annual figure may end up being far lower than last year."
https://nypost.com/2013/06/02/suicide-is-leading-cause-of-subway-passenger-deaths-mta-data/
In response to the most recent previous posts, I can understand avoidance of religious topics that can lead to controversy and ill-will. But prevention of suicide is part of all Abrahamic religions, all types of Judaism, Christianity, and true Islam (not the Mufti-distorted version of Islam that promotes suicide bombers). And real faith can help one ask the Eternal for help instead of performing the act. From my own brushes with being close to doing it, may I respectfully suggest:
Don't try to argue someone out of his or her faith. If your faith is different or you are an Athiest, accept that people are different and can still work together to make a better world.
If you see anyone who seems "under a cloud," perpetually sad, try to find out in a non-prying way what the problem is. Be a good listener, and don't come up with a response on the spur of the moment. Think about it, and you may come up wiih a solution. Examples:
Just because A dislikes you, don't forget that all the rest of us think well of you and want to be your friends.
You've obviously been given a very difficult task to do, and too short a time to do it. So simply explain what the problems are and why you need more time. Or ask for others to assist you.
Just because you were the very best in highschool doesn't mean you have to be the very best in college. Just relax a bit, do your best, and as long as you get passing grades, be happy.
There is one case I know of where a person did have faith and his interpretation led him to suicide, because he was also a sexual devient. I would have had the sense to point out King David's directly expressed love for Jonathan in the (Jewish and Christian) Bible, and that there are many many ways of expressing love physically without directly vioiating religious comandments.
I've survived to 88 (in a few weeks), and just possibly one of these suggestions may help at least one person also survive.
And you may think of others.
Over the last 3000 years we have made great strides in the healing of the body but are still just coming out of the dark ages when comes to healing the brain. Even in Saint Lukes time there were whole libraries to healing battlefield injuries and sickness and the Roman/Greek Armies had phisiscians on there payroll,...with the start of the decline of the Roman Empire and the rise in power of the Catholic Church and the dark fuedal system that replaced the Pax Romana things started going downhill. Many of the Eastern European Imagrants that came out of the Ottamon Feudal Empire to the Rust Belt in the early 20th century brought these old idea with them which included that mental illeness was caused by ones own sins and sins of there fathers and demons brought these traditions with them. This resulted in the Stigmatation and outcasting and isolation of family members who sufferred from mental disablities. If one were to try and get out by means of suicide ones punishment for this unforgivable sin continued after death with santions such as not mentioning this family members name again,non buriel in a Cathlolic/Jewish Cematary and placing of ones children in a orhapange thus enshering the cycle be carried out for generations.--
The belief in the modern church in "demonic possesion" is still a real thing and has resulted in the needless delay of treatment for mental illness.Rev Ryan Anderson who is the pastor of Good Shepard Missouri lutheran Lutheran Church told me when I asked was Jesus healing mental illness when he "cast out demons" and his answer was yes that there are demons out there. The modern Catholic Church still holds on and also teaches courses on exorcism despite Vatican 2 and the new pope-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHDjVPKi0QU, Exocism is also a tradition in deep Jewish Culture as well...The recent history of mental hospitals for the last 150 years is not much better. "Mental Health law" was based on the presumption that people who have Mental Disablites are not fit to walk the streets with the rest of us normal souls. So hundreds of thousands of people were put in trains and sent up to massive facilties like Wingdale NY or Bellevue. Inside such faclities there endured cold water torture,electroshock thearapy and having parts of there brains removed.( the most commonly used treatments for mental illness were electroconvulsive therapy, insulin coma therapy and lobotomies)In the Westfield Mass area I have followed old railroad beds to find massive abandoned contratration camps for the mentaly disabled/delopmently disabled/mental ill. In my travels I have seen dozens of these places..https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freud-fluoxetine/201807/the-american-mental-asylum-remnant-history ..I have even stayed in a few that were converted to Veterans homes...As far as today is concerned the SSRIs basicly are a chemical lobotimy that over time use heavy metals such as lithium to short circuit the brain and kill all emotions or feeling over time. The Phislosophy is socialital control. see- https://www.amazon.com/Your-Drug-May-Problem-Psychiatric-ebook/dp/B009SAV6SI The old feel good drugs of the 1970s like valuium are only prescribed to rich cliants while the poor are put on the SSRI which kill the mind and body over time.
x
divebardave Budget Cuts Change Care The 1980s marked a period in which sweeping budget cuts led to a decline in services for the mentally ill. President Ronald Reagan helped institute a variety of cuts to social programs that affected a number of groups throughout the country. His administration supervised cuts throughout the decade that hampered support for the poor and mentally ill, among other groups. Prior to Reagan’s presidency, President Jimmy Carter helped establish the Mental Health Systems Act of 1980, which restructured federal community health center programs by increasing and strengthening links between local, state and federal governments, according to a history of mental health in the United States by the Minnesota Psychiatric Society. The act mandated the Community Mental Health Centers to increase a number of grant programs for the mentally ill, such as services for the severely mentally ill, the severely emotionally disturbed and increasing education and consulting needs. At the time he signed the act, Carter said the act was “the most important piece of federal mental health legislation” since President John F. Kennedy's Community Mental Health and Mental Retardation Facilities Act in 1963. It was designed to reestablish many of the community programs from the Kennedy years and President Lyndon B. Johnson’s Great Society that had been cut or diminished during the Nixon presidency. However, Reagan repealed the act soon after taking office in 1981, because the federal support of Community Mental Health Centers ran counter to his goals to reduce spending and social programs, according to Alexandar R. Thomas, a sociology professor at Northeastern. In its stead, Reagan enacted the Alcohol, Drug Abuse and Mental Health Block Grant, which decreased funding by 30 percent in 1982, leading to major service reductions. Under this system, the federal government simply redistributed money to the states, but in smaller amounts, which increased the burden placed upon local and state governments, according to a 1994 journal article by Gerald Grob of Rutgers University. By 1985 the federal funds provided to the ADMS Block Grant covered only 11 percent of agency budgets, while states’ responsibility grew to 42 percent. --Compiled by Matt Birchenough; photo courtesy the Ronald Reagan Library
The 1980s marked a period in which sweeping budget cuts led to a decline in services for the mentally ill. President Ronald Reagan helped institute a variety of cuts to social programs that affected a number of groups throughout the country. His administration supervised cuts throughout the decade that hampered support for the poor and mentally ill, among other groups. Prior to Reagan’s presidency, President Jimmy Carter helped establish the Mental Health Systems Act of 1980, which restructured federal community health center programs by increasing and strengthening links between local, state and federal governments, according to a history of mental health in the United States by the Minnesota Psychiatric Society. The act mandated the Community Mental Health Centers to increase a number of grant programs for the mentally ill, such as services for the severely mentally ill, the severely emotionally disturbed and increasing education and consulting needs. At the time he signed the act, Carter said the act was “the most important piece of federal mental health legislation” since President John F. Kennedy's Community Mental Health and Mental Retardation Facilities Act in 1963. It was designed to reestablish many of the community programs from the Kennedy years and President Lyndon B. Johnson’s Great Society that had been cut or diminished during the Nixon presidency. However, Reagan repealed the act soon after taking office in 1981, because the federal support of Community Mental Health Centers ran counter to his goals to reduce spending and social programs, according to Alexandar R. Thomas, a sociology professor at Northeastern. In its stead, Reagan enacted the Alcohol, Drug Abuse and Mental Health Block Grant, which decreased funding by 30 percent in 1982, leading to major service reductions. Under this system, the federal government simply redistributed money to the states, but in smaller amounts, which increased the burden placed upon local and state governments, according to a 1994 journal article by Gerald Grob of Rutgers University. By 1985 the federal funds provided to the ADMS Block Grant covered only 11 percent of agency budgets, while states’ responsibility grew to 42 percent. --Compiled by Matt Birchenough; photo courtesy the Ronald Reagan Library
All this being said...Hug your neighboor,Give up your seat to a lady.Smile once in a while and buy your barmate a beer and just be a nice guy and stop being a mule-hole to keep the rest of us going for a while.
divebardaveWhich explains why states such as Miss,Alabama and Florida have high rates of crime atributed to mental health.
A syndicated child psychologist columnist in our local paper is quite certain that the "spare the rod, spoil the child" generation is also a large part of the problem. I see no reason to disagree with that. It's also been said that the current generation is the most depressed ever, in no small part due to social media.
A fire chief speaking at a seminar I attended last year said that he is now getting recruits who have never heard the word "no." When I related that to a high school teacher I know, he said that in addition to learning student's names at the beginning of the year, you also have to figure out who hasn't heard the same word.
This all adds up to a generation that cannot handle life when things go sour.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I know you don't like hearing this from a professional but it's a wee bit more complicated than what you posted. Also Dive bar Dave posted a lot of valuable information that you might not like either.
I agree, and regarding my posting of suggestions, based on both my own life and relations with others, I make the suggestions more in the way of basic human relations, rather than last-minute therapy to avert an immediate disaster. If faced with the latter, my first thought would be to turn to a professional, and only if that were impossible, try my best. I did have one experience of the latter, here in Israel, and I think I was successful, if indeed the problem was really that serious.
And regarding the deviant's tragedy, this was a young man talented in his profession in the USA, loved by those working with him, and an individual with great talent to contribute to society. And he may have been chastized, for all I know, my some religious fanatical clergyman who still retains medieval theology.
And I have to admit there are Jewish religious fanatics who forbid immunization injections and/or floride toothpast! Rabbi Marc Angel, Emeritus at New York's Shearith Israel, who was and is one of my important teachers, as written a great deal on this problem within the Orthodox Jewish community.
From the Veterans Administrtion Website, Suicide Prevention Management:
This blog is intended for providers who care for Veterans that are at risk of suicide. SRM provides free consultation, support, and resources that promote therapeutic best practices for the providers working with at-risk Veterans.
VA’s Suicide Risk Management Consultation Program (SRM) provides one free hour of consultation services for community or VA providers who work with Veterans at risk for suicide.
SRM consultants collaborate with providers and offer tailored, one-on-one support for risk assessment, conceptualization of suicide risk, lethal means safety counseling, strategies for how to engage Veterans at high risk in their own treatment, best practices for documentation, and provider support after a suicide loss (postvention). SRM’s expert consultation and resources promote best practices informed by research conducted in VA and in the community.
SRM experts only consult with PROVIDERS on suicide risk management and does not provide any direct care or support to Veterans. If you are a Veteran in crisis — or you’re concerned about one — free, confidential support is available 24/7. Call the Veterans Crisis Line at 1-800-273-8255 and Press 1, send a text message to 838255, or chat online. Find Veteran Suicide Prevention information and resources on the Veterans Crisis Line website.
Community leaders and other organizations working with Veterans may also request suicide prevention resources, information and education (e.g. presentations). Learning how to identify someone at risk of suicide and ways to offer support are popular examples.
The Suicide Risk Management Consultation Program (SRM) is ensuring providers have access to suicide prevention resources to continuously improve Veteran care both inside and outside VA.
Once a provider submits an email request for consultation, an SRM staff member schedules a time to speak with them. Staff can also answer a question via email if preferred.
In the SRM staff’s reply to the provider is an included triage form for the provider/applicant to complete and return. Providers complete and submit the triage form prior to the scheduled consultation. All information discussed during the consultation process is confidential.
To request a consult, or to learn more, please email srmconsult@va.gov or visit www.mirecc.va.gov/visn19/consult.
Kaesean Joseph is an Air Force Veteran and VA employee.
charlie hebdo I know you don't like hearing this from a professional but it's a wee bit more complicated than what you posted. Also Dive bar Dave posted a lot of valuable information that you might not like either.
There's no question that it's a complicated issue - those were just a couple of observations, not an attempt to sum up the entire issue.
Suicide is a very definite problem in the world of public safety - both police and fire. Last night was a perfect illustration of why - a critical incident debrief was held for those who responded to a double fatal crash involving two teens. Again, just one factor, but folks in this profession (career and volunteer) all too often feel they have to "suck it up" and deal with it themselves.
I was not at the debrief as I was not on the call.
We have a regional team that can respond for defusing sessions immediately after a bad call, and they will conduct the CISD a day or two later if requested. As a fire chief, they're in the back of mind for incidents that might have an effect on my people. Even if I don't see the need for a group debrief, I'm watching my crew for signs of distress.
My fire department will be hosting a seminar next month. One of the presenters will be a clergyman speaking on this very topic.
It would more helpful if this VA person could state in a few sentences what specific resources are actually available.
When you are working with sick "dirty" people you are likely to get mud on your hands as well.... The people who's job is to listen and consoll the unwashed masses like my VA consolor,Bartender,Barber,Rabbi,Preist who hears my rambleing confessions,.Bus driver,Amtrak Conductor, Ect--Need our Prayers as well.
BaltACD tree68 zugmann Also, being a football player - who knows how many concussions he's sustained over the years and what damage those have done to him. This is an area that only recently has gotten the attention it needs to get. This could well mean that this young man had, indeed, suffered some concussions in the past - including some that weren't recognized (or were simply ignored) by the coaches and others. As noted, not everyone has the ability to recognize and deal with such situations - and sometimes they're too proud to admit to a problem. It's an issue the fire service (which has it's share of PTSD and suicides) is grappling with. I don't know the level of drug testing for PED's that happens in High School these days - PED's have also been known to be related to 'clouded' thought processes in their users. 30+ years ago - I used to use a local High School's track for my personal exercise area. I would see the football players hitting the weight room every day that school was open, and even when school was closed the coach made arrangements so that the players could access the weight room. This particular school did not field 'elite teams' in the state. Better performance through chemistry is a most effective lure for kids with big dreams, who just know they will live forever despite anything they put in the bodies.
tree68 zugmann Also, being a football player - who knows how many concussions he's sustained over the years and what damage those have done to him. This is an area that only recently has gotten the attention it needs to get. This could well mean that this young man had, indeed, suffered some concussions in the past - including some that weren't recognized (or were simply ignored) by the coaches and others. As noted, not everyone has the ability to recognize and deal with such situations - and sometimes they're too proud to admit to a problem. It's an issue the fire service (which has it's share of PTSD and suicides) is grappling with.
zugmann Also, being a football player - who knows how many concussions he's sustained over the years and what damage those have done to him.
Also, being a football player - who knows how many concussions he's sustained over the years and what damage those have done to him.
This is an area that only recently has gotten the attention it needs to get. This could well mean that this young man had, indeed, suffered some concussions in the past - including some that weren't recognized (or were simply ignored) by the coaches and others.
As noted, not everyone has the ability to recognize and deal with such situations - and sometimes they're too proud to admit to a problem. It's an issue the fire service (which has it's share of PTSD and suicides) is grappling with.
I don't know the level of drug testing for PED's that happens in High School these days - PED's have also been known to be related to 'clouded' thought processes in their users.
30+ years ago - I used to use a local High School's track for my personal exercise area. I would see the football players hitting the weight room every day that school was open, and even when school was closed the coach made arrangements so that the players could access the weight room. This particular school did not field 'elite teams' in the state. Better performance through chemistry is a most effective lure for kids with big dreams, who just know they will live forever despite anything they put in the bodies.
Probably not 30 years ago and at the high school level, but today at the college and pro level, there's entensive testing and penalties for the use of performance enhancing substances.
Charlie, just go to the VA Website and you can find all the information you want. If you are a person dealing with the situation professionally, you will get all the help you want that is available from them, just because some of your clients/patients may be veterans. And Tree68, can you report on what the specific presenter presents at your next-month meeting?
Dave K: Thanks. Actually I know the chief psychologist at the SF VA going back to graduate school. To say the least, they have lots of programs, but are pretty short on real services due to chronic underfunding and staff (provider) shortages.
charlie hebdo Dave K: Thanks. Actually I know the chief psychologist at the SF VA going back to graduate school. To say the least, they have lots of programs, but are pretty short on real services due to chronic underfunding and staff (provider) shortages.
Not having (thank the Eternal) had to actually use the VA's health consultation services myself, I was not aware of these shortcomings. Apologies.
divebardaveI am frustated that the VA has recently hired a number of inexperanced non-vets to deal with our care. The girl that I taked to today in Omaha is young enough to be my granddaughter.
They are probably depending heavily upon the abundant supply of qualified analysts available at most railroad enthusiast messageboards?
Convicted OneThey are probably depending heavily upon the abundant supply of qualified analysts available at most railroad enthusiast messageboards?
Nah - that's just a bunch of (ahem) old men...
That said - the government isn't always the highest paying option for those seeking employment in professional fields.
tree68Nah - that's just a bunch of (ahem) old men...
I recently visited a suicide prevention and emotional support message board and asked them how locomotive dynamic brakes work. As is to be expected almost everywhere, replies received ranged from crackpot theory to near encyclopaedic dissertation.
But the most accurate replies looked suspiciously like cut-n-paste jobs from elsewhere. So I decided to put them to the ultimate test, and asked them why tunnel motors have their radiator air intake down low. Just as I suspected, not a one of them seemed to be the least bit aware of the radiator fan assemblies being beneath the coils. Buncha POSERS!!
So much for "uninformed" opinion? ROFL!
Convicted One divebardave I am frustated that the VA has recently hired a number of inexperanced non-vets to deal with our care. The girl that I taked to today in Omaha is young enough to be my granddaughter. They are probably depending heavily upon the abundant supply of qualified analysts available at most railroad enthusiast messageboards?
divebardave I am frustated that the VA has recently hired a number of inexperanced non-vets to deal with our care. The girl that I taked to today in Omaha is young enough to be my granddaughter.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Former acoustical consulting client still sending me notices, which I appreciate, since I am concerned with the welfare of all my old clients:
daveklepper Going back to the thread's subject, with a question: Have any of you been in a position in life where a lot was expected of you, perhaps in several areas, not just one, and you simply felt terribly inadequate to fullfill even of a large fraction of all that life seemed to demand from you?
Going back to the thread's subject, with a question:
Have any of you been in a position in life where a lot was expected of you, perhaps in several areas, not just one, and you simply felt terribly inadequate to fullfill even of a large fraction of all that life seemed to demand from you?
Let's just say that more of us have indeed been in the situation you describe than we let on. There is a strong social taboo on talking of such things, and you are a courageous person to bring this up.
The second thought is if the person who had acted on these feelings had only known how much their life meant to other people. Frank Capra's "It's a Wonderful Life" is about just such a situation, a person placed under extreme pressure and only focused on that one thing instead of seeing the bigger picture. I bring this up as an example, but I am not able to watch it anymore because I know of when it was real life, only it didn't have the happy ending as in the movie.
The third idea is that one can have dark thoughts as you describe, but I am hoping that your human as well as animal instincts of self-preservation remain strong in you.
Like the Holodeck in Star Trek the Next Generation, I think we have "safeties" where we can entertain fantasies but thankfully lack the impulse to act on them. I don't think it is just Catholic dogma -- I think self preservation is a strong, natural instinct. A person who acts on such an impulse must not only have the despair that you speak of, the built-in mental safety features must have been disabled somehow or were not there.
We should also think of the locomotive engineer. I guess it is regarded as more impersonal to step in front of a giant locomotive than to step in front of a car, but the horror and guilt felt by the driver must be much the same.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Convicted One tree68 Nah - that's just a bunch of (ahem) old men... I recently visited a suicide prevention and emotional support message board and asked them how locomotive dynamic brakes work. As is to be expected almost everywhere, replies received ranged from crackpot theory to near encyclopaedic dissertation. But the most accurate replies looked suspiciously like cut-n-paste jobs from elsewhere. So I decided to put them to the ultimate test, and asked them why tunnel motors have their radiator air intake down low. Just as I suspected, not a one of them seemed to be the least bit aware of the radiator fan assemblies being beneath the coils. Buncha POSERS!! So much for "uninformed" opinion? ROFL!
tree68 Nah - that's just a bunch of (ahem) old men...
Ah, the irony, an emotional support message board and someone has to go all O.T. and change the subject to locomotive dynamic brakes. But you are trying to pull our legs here, Mrs. Robinson? Aren't you?
But now you got me going. "Tunnel motor" locomotives are meant for operation in, tunnels? And the air up top gets hot from the locomotive exhaust and radiator fans exhausting upward that the logical thing to do is to place the radiator intakes at a lower level? And maybe put the electric-driven cooling fans below the radiators, because they too benefit from cooler air, but this is at the expense of making them harder to repair? And that there is no such thing as a GE tunnel motor because they have always had a mechanically driven cooling fan below the radiator drawing air from even lower down on the carbody? And that a GE unit just deciding to shut down for no good reason didn't need heat and smoke in a railroad tunnel for motivation?
Just asking.
Why should people on a suicide prevention forum be expected to know anything about railroads??
I'm missing something.
Lithonia Operator Why should people on a suicide prevention forum be expected to know anything about railroads?? I'm missing something.
In the words of John Fawlty, "Typical, just typical. You....."
I
I think it is a mild jibe at the discussion of mental health intervention as being off-topic on a forum about trains. It is in perhaps bad taste because we were discussing the loss of a young man who stepped in front of a train and who could have had mental health difficulties. A speeding train like a bunch of other things ends up as a means for a person to take their life, which has repercusions to a whole lot of people, including the locomotive driver who has witnessed this and was powerless to stop the train short, so yes, it is a feature of the railroad industry.
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