Lithonia Operator Hopefully, though, the general growing consciousness of the society on this subject leads more people to ask more questions of their loved ones.
I was thinking exactly that as I wrote that.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding I'm not sure how this thread drifted so far but... This subject hits pretty close to home for me. Two years ago one of my employees took his life. He was my friend who had I worked beside for 29 years. It came right out of left field and left everybody he knew in shock. Our company offered grief counceling, but I was the only one out of 40 to take them up on it. Men, in general have a hard time dealing with emotions, more-so in talking to others about emotions. Being who I am, I shared all I learned with the rest of my crew of 17 guys. When someone commits suicide, the first thing out of everyone's mouth seems to be "how could anybody in their right mind do such a thing?" That's also the answer. In order to commit suicide, one is not in their right mind. For whatever reason, they have convinced themselves that this is their only option. All they want is for the pain to end. They never consider the effect it will have on those they leave behind. A week or so back there was an obituary in our paper for a young man who committed suicide. It said so right in the obit. His parents took the time to actually write about the problem of suicide and how to help people. I wish I could find that obit and send those people an award. I'd bet that 90% of the time, you can tell by reading an obit if it was suicide. For some reason, society gossips just need to know those sort of things. It's none of our business. That is information to be left for those grieving the loss of someone. It makes us no better off to know the details. Hug your kids, and tell them you love them.
I'm not sure how this thread drifted so far but... This subject hits pretty close to home for me. Two years ago one of my employees took his life. He was my friend who had I worked beside for 29 years. It came right out of left field and left everybody he knew in shock. Our company offered grief counceling, but I was the only one out of 40 to take them up on it. Men, in general have a hard time dealing with emotions, more-so in talking to others about emotions. Being who I am, I shared all I learned with the rest of my crew of 17 guys. When someone commits suicide, the first thing out of everyone's mouth seems to be "how could anybody in their right mind do such a thing?" That's also the answer. In order to commit suicide, one is not in their right mind. For whatever reason, they have convinced themselves that this is their only option. All they want is for the pain to end. They never consider the effect it will have on those they leave behind. A week or so back there was an obituary in our paper for a young man who committed suicide. It said so right in the obit. His parents took the time to actually write about the problem of suicide and how to help people. I wish I could find that obit and send those people an award. I'd bet that 90% of the time, you can tell by reading an obit if it was suicide. For some reason, society gossips just need to know those sort of things. It's none of our business. That is information to be left for those grieving the loss of someone. It makes us no better off to know the details. Hug your kids, and tell them you love them.
Excellent post, Murph.
Yes, it's up to the families involved. If they find value in sharing the info, they by all means should do so. But in most cases (say Jefferey Epstein), I don't see this as a public's right to know situation.
Lithonia Operator Murphy Siding I'm not sure how this thread drifted so far but... This subject hits pretty close to home for me. Two years ago one of my employees took his life. He was my friend who had I worked beside for 29 years. It came right out of left field and left everybody he knew in shock. Our company offered grief counceling, but I was the only one out of 40 to take them up on it. Men, in general have a hard time dealing with emotions, more-so in talking to others about emotions. Being who I am, I shared all I learned with the rest of my crew of 17 guys. When someone commits suicide, the first thing out of everyone's mouth seems to be "how could anybody in their right mind do such a thing?" That's also the answer. In order to commit suicide, one is not in their right mind. For whatever reason, they have convinced themselves that this is their only option. All they want is for the pain to end. They never consider the effect it will have on those they leave behind. A week or so back there was an obituary in our paper for a young man who committed suicide. It said so right in the obit. His parents took the time to actually write about the problem of suicide and how to help people. I wish I could find that obit and send those people an award. I'd bet that 90% of the time, you can tell by reading an obit if it was suicide. For some reason, society gossips just need to know those sort of things. It's none of our business. That is information to be left for those grieving the loss of someone. It makes us no better off to know the details. Hug your kids, and tell them you love them. Excellent post, Murph. Yes, it's up to the families involved. If they find value in sharing the info, they by all means should do so. But in most cases (say Jefferey Epstein), I don't see this as a public's right to know situation.
Being in Florida currently, and listening to Spots Talk Radio some further details were interjected into the 'equation'. The kid was homeless and basicly estranged from his mother account her own psychiatric instabilities of a long term duration. The kid was not in a 'Father Knows Best or Leave it to Beaver' kind of stable home life.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Found it. This is in reference to a young man I mentioned in my post at the bottom of page one. The young man's name was Isaac. He was 23. Here are some parts of the obituary:"Isaac...following a long struggle with depression, died by suicide on Saturday......We believe it is important to be candid with the nature of his death - in that he took his own life, and that he struggled with depression and mental illness for several years. We are proud of our son and love him very much. This is a terrible tragedy. We would like people to know that he was sick. We think he believed the lie that there is no hope from our broken condition......Please pray for our family as we learn to live our lives without Isaac being with us. He will be dearly missed. We are broken-hearted but want our loss to possibly help someone else who might be hurting. If you are struggling with depression or anxiety and hopelessness - your life matters. Please reach out for help you don't have to struggle alone! If you or someone you know needs help, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255). You can also text a crisis counselor by messaging 741741..."
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingFound it. The young man's name was Isaac. He was 23. Here are some parts of the obituary: "Isaac...following a long struggle with depression, died by suicide on Saturday......We believe it is important to be candid with the nature of his death - in that he took his own life, and that he struggled with depression and mental illness for several years. We are proud of our son and love him very much. This is a terrible tragedy. We would like people to know that he was sick. We think he believed the lie that there is no hope from our broken condition......Please pray for our family as we learn to live our lives without Isaac being with us. He will be dearly missed. We are broken-hearted but want our loss to possibly help someone else who might be hurting. If you are struggling with depression or anxiety and hopelessness - your life matters. Please reach out for help you don't have to struggle alone! If you or someone you know needs help, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255). You can also text a crisis counselor by messaging 741741..."
"Isaac...following a long struggle with depression, died by suicide on Saturday......We believe it is important to be candid with the nature of his death - in that he took his own life, and that he struggled with depression and mental illness for several years. We are proud of our son and love him very much. This is a terrible tragedy. We would like people to know that he was sick. We think he believed the lie that there is no hope from our broken condition......Please pray for our family as we learn to live our lives without Isaac being with us. He will be dearly missed. We are broken-hearted but want our loss to possibly help someone else who might be hurting. If you are struggling with depression or anxiety and hopelessness - your life matters. Please reach out for help you don't have to struggle alone! If you or someone you know needs help, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255). You can also text a crisis counselor by messaging 741741..."
Think you found the wrong person. The football player was Bryce Gowdy age 17.
BaltACD Murphy Siding Found it. The young man's name was Isaac. He was 23. Here are some parts of the obituary: "Isaac...following a long struggle with depression, died by suicide on Saturday......We believe it is important to be candid with the nature of his death - in that he took his own life, and that he struggled with depression and mental illness for several years. We are proud of our son and love him very much. This is a terrible tragedy. We would like people to know that he was sick. We think he believed the lie that there is no hope from our broken condition......Please pray for our family as we learn to live our lives without Isaac being with us. He will be dearly missed. We are broken-hearted but want our loss to possibly help someone else who might be hurting. If you are struggling with depression or anxiety and hopelessness - your life matters. Please reach out for help you don't have to struggle alone! If you or someone you know needs help, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255). You can also text a crisis counselor by messaging 741741..." Think you found the wrong person. The football player was Bryce Gowdy age 17.
Murphy Siding Found it. The young man's name was Isaac. He was 23. Here are some parts of the obituary: "Isaac...following a long struggle with depression, died by suicide on Saturday......We believe it is important to be candid with the nature of his death - in that he took his own life, and that he struggled with depression and mental illness for several years. We are proud of our son and love him very much. This is a terrible tragedy. We would like people to know that he was sick. We think he believed the lie that there is no hope from our broken condition......Please pray for our family as we learn to live our lives without Isaac being with us. He will be dearly missed. We are broken-hearted but want our loss to possibly help someone else who might be hurting. If you are struggling with depression or anxiety and hopelessness - your life matters. Please reach out for help you don't have to struggle alone! If you or someone you know needs help, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255). You can also text a crisis counselor by messaging 741741..."
BaltACDThink you found the wrong person. The football player was Bryce Gowdy age 17.
Thread drift doesn't bother him as much when he's the one steering.
Going back to the thread's subject, with a question:
Have any of you been in a position in life where a lot was expected of you, perhaps in several areas, not just one, and you simply felt terribly inadequate to fullfill even of a large fraction of all that life seemed to demand from you?
Convicted One BaltACD Think you found the wrong person. The football player was Bryce Gowdy age 17. Thread drift doesn't bother him as much when he's the one steering.
BaltACD Think you found the wrong person. The football player was Bryce Gowdy age 17.
Well now I'm curious. Which one of us are you talking about?
daveklepper Going back to the thread's subject, with a question: Have any of you been in a position in life where a lot was expected of you, perhaps in several areas, not just one, and you simply felt terribly inadequate to fullfill even of a large fraction of all that life seemed to demand from you?
Hell yes.
daveklepperHave any of you been in a position in life where a lot was expected of you, perhaps in several areas, not just one, and you simply felt terribly inadequate to fullfill even of a large fraction of all that life seemed to demand from you?
There is a large and growing literature on the 'Impostor Syndrome' (which is like a contrapositive of the Peter Principle). Interestingly enough, I have seen repeated studies that indicate that actually-qualified people have much more anxiety and perceived question about their performance than people actually 'in over their heads' in a complex situation.
It would be nice, of course, if society had the resources and maturity to support people in their actual achievements, while providing feedback and guidance for how to improve in the 'other areas'. It would be even nicer if we could point to something selfless and absolute, like science, as a guide. Unfortunately 'science' as practiced in nearly any discipline in the postwar years has been all too often a poster child for what NOT to do ... either with peers or with others with a need or want to know.
I had this discussion with a couple of people setting up 'suicide resources' in northwest Pennsylvania a couple of months ago. I thought it was interesting that despite considerable experience and study into the emotional components of suicide, very little consideration appears to have been given (in the context of precluding suicides, especially in college students) to the intellectual or academic side...
Concerning people who are in over their heads and do not know it, think of the pointy-haired boss in the "Dilbert" comic strip.
Johnny
Suicidology is very complex. College counseling centers have used various approaches over the years, ranging from techniques to help students with academic pressures to depth therapy. Prediction is very imprecise and counseling resources are very limited. Stigmatization by the general population is an added burden.
Thanks for injecting a little humor in this grim subject Johnny!
And the reason "Dilbert" is so funny is because it's so true!
OvermodInterestingly enough, I have seen repeated studies that indicate that actually-qualified people have much more anxiety and perceived question about their performance than people actually 'in over their heads' in a complex situation.
Possibly summed up as "you don't know what you don't know."
Yes, Wayne, at one time I had a manager who at times approached the pointy-haired class. He had had no experience in our sort of work, and he was also unaware that we who were under him were rather well acquainted with our resposibilities.
I also had an instructor in fork lift operation who took issue with my heading down a ramp without a load once--and I politely told him (from previous instruction) that you travel on an incline with the heavy end up--and he accepted my knowledge.
You are using someone elses hand when you commit suicide by train/cop/freeway. I try to stay clear of freinds who want to commit suicide because they dont care about there own life and have no problem with taking someone close down with them.--- .
I prefer suicide on the Installment plan- One drink,One cigar and One blood pressure pill at a time,One day at a time...and occasionaly breath in some Coal/Diesal smoke from a 1950s era steam/Alco on a scenic railroad when I get a rare chance.
divebardave I prefer suicide on the Installment plan- One drink,One cigar and One blood pressure pill at a time,One day at a time...and occasionaly breath in some Coal/Diesal smoke from a 1950s era steam/Alco on a scenic railroad when I get a rare chance.
Some more badly needed humor here!
Someone told me once (after they saw me "light up") that "You know, smoking takes ten years off your life!"
"So what?" I said, "They're the worst ten years of your life anyway!"
Yes, but I always felt like suicide would be giving the rest of the world a break that it didn't deserve.
Interesting point I would like you guys to ponder.
For most of this century,Major League Baseball had a cluster of forums, where each team had it's own...they were very heavily used
A couple years ago on the California Angels message board, a thread on suicide came about.
One of their teenage posters committed suicide, and had that thread bookmarked on their computer. During the attempts to discover what might have provoked the act, somebody started sifting through the teens computer, and found that bookmark.
I don't know all the details, but evidently there was enough "cause and effect" found that the parents ended up suing the Angels, and Major League Baseball,
And the Angels message board disappeared without announcement...never to return. And, about a year later, all the rest of the boards followed suit.
All I was able to gather was that it was decided that the cost of having to defend from such litigation was greater than the value of the forums. So they all went *poof*.
As good as it might feel for all of us to pour out our heart felt opinions on this sensitive subject, is it really a "smart" topic to be discussing? I really can't imagine Kalmbach being too thrilled having this discussion on their boards, so I'm out.
Is this a smart discussion to be having? Well, let's remember it all started because of a tragic suicide by train.
As far as I know all the posters here are mature, well-grounded men and very unlikely to be influenced to take their own lives by anything they've read here. Granted, there's always more "Views" on these topics than there are active participants, but I doubt any of them are likely to be influenced as well. At least I hope so.
And if, if, it hightens awareness of the problem with those who've looked in then in my opinon it's done a positive good.
Considering the quality of the posts on this topic I believe Kalmbach should be proud of the caliber of their readers, even if they find the subject matter awkward.
In that vein, possibly suicide by train might make a thought-provoking article in "Trains" magazine? A truly grim subject and certainly outside their usual subject matter, but an important one, since "SBT" seems to be a growing, although not an epidemic, problem in the larger urban and suburban areas of the country.
No, I'm not volunteering to write it, I'm not qualified, not by a long shot.
Flintlock76Granted, there's always more "Views" on these topics than there are active participants, but I doubt any of them are likely to be influenced as well.
I would opine that all our discussion does (on the negative side) is give someone who is already in distress one more possibility to consider.
Unfortunately, copycats are real. A nearby school was offering immunizations some years ago. One girl's bad emotional reaction quickly turned into a half dozen...
It's already been stated that awareness of this problem has come a long way.
One might hope that if someone is found walking on the tracks that such a possibility comes to mind. You can often tell by someone's demeanor that they may need some attention. The drunk walking home on the tracks is still in danger of being killed, but odds are it won't be intentional.
If someone truly wants to end it all, they will find the tools to do so. We can only hope to identify their issues and help them resolve them by other means before they can act on it.
tree68I would opine that all our discussion does (on the negative side) is give someone who is already in distress one more possibility to consider.
If you are dealing with someone who is mentally imbalanced to begin with, it is a fools errand to predict what their response might be. Perhaps just an unintentional joke such as "the later years are the most unpleasant" might be interepreted as encouragement.
The only point I was trying to make earlier is that perhaps this might be a good place to consider our needs for self indulgence weighed against the potential consequences for the forum host?
Of course I am sure there will be some here who are convinced THEY are doing the right thing right up until Kalmbach pulls the plug, and then they will argue there was no valid reason to pull it. That is just the nature of some I guess.
The stigma of suicide can be laid at the feet of the Catholic Church and the Fuedal system that it arose from, Could not have a Catholic Funeral,Could not be buired in a Catholic Cemetary,Could not collect the full amount of Life Insurance (often provided by fraturnal insuarnce like Knights of Columbus or Holy Name Society), Name was whispered in hush tones- In english common law one life belongs to the state or the king and taking ones own life could have civil consequnces in terms of Inhertance and property.--- The legal theory is that it is the king and the state that is harmed by the loss of there chattel (you)and that is why the state prosecutes crimes such as murderand is under no obligation to order compisation to the victim. English Common Law was carried over by the American Colonies and then the independent United States as the legal system of what they knew..
I will simply offer this as a professional with experience in managing suicidal patients.
1. It is a very complex issue, with no simplistic answers and difficult to predict with accuracy, so err on the side of taking someone's statements seriously.
2. Copy cats attempts do occur, especially with the young.
3. Discussing suicide with someone you suspect is considering it is not "putting the idea in their head" or driving them to action. It is what hotline folks and therapists generally do. It often comes as a relief to the person because now they feel free to talk about their thoughts with someone who appears to empathsize.
4. As non-professionals, keep in mind the three critical conditions, given in order of increasing dangerousness:
a. Ideation
b. Means
c. Plan.
If in fact our bodies/lives are our own then one should have the right to ends one life without outside interferance. I mean the "pro-choice" crowd has been saying this since Roe Vs Wade. The "Pro-Life Crowd" has been saying that our life belongs to God or "Higher Power" and the collective community as a whole and that our bodies/lives are communal property of the state...I propose as a Liberatarian that if one wants to end there own life then they should have the right to do so by filing the appropiate papers with a court of proper jurisdiction proving sound state of mind and then by medical means...Its better then the messy ways of forcing a train drivers hand and the EMS Bio-haz mat team to clean up the mess.
divebardave If in fact our bodies/lives are our own then one should have the right to ends one life without outside interferance. I mean the "pro-choice" crowd has been saying this since Roe Vs Wade. The "Pro-Life Crowd" has been saying that our life belongs to God or "Higher Power" and the collective community as a whole and that our bodies/lives are communal property of the state...I propose as a Liberatarian that if one wants to end there own life then they should have the right to do so by filing the appropiate papers with a court of proper jurisdiction proving sound state of mind and then by medical means...Its better then the messy ways of forcing a train drivers hand and the EMS Bio-haz mat team to clean up the mess.
+1
Agreed. I'm not a Libertarian but what you propose is sensible. That said, many suicide attempts don't have the lead time or knowledge to file papers with a court. Nor is suicide (doctor-assisted or otherwise) legal in many states. Oregon is a good option for those contemplating an exit.
"The Atlantic" which is about as mainline journalism as you can get says-
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/david-foster-wallace-was-no-coward/604501/
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