tree68 Lithonia Operator But weren't those units set up so that the controls were alongside the engineer, not in front? The standard AAR stand can be run pretty easily in both directions.
Lithonia Operator But weren't those units set up so that the controls were alongside the engineer, not in front?
The standard AAR stand can be run pretty easily in both directions.
Johnny
Larry, is the "standard AAR stand" something that is installed nowadays? Or is that something in the past? Not too long ago, as part of my work, I rode in a modern Amtrak engine. That engineer, IIRC, sat at a desk-like affair. Of course, that type of engine would never run any real distance "backwards" in the lead. But it was my impression that current freight diesels use that type of control arrangement. No? From what I saw, it seems like it would be hard to use that desk setup while facing away from it.
Lithonia OperatorLarry, is the "standard AAR stand" something that is installed nowadays? Or is that something in the past? Not too long ago, as part of my work, I rode in a modern Amtrak engine. That engineer, IIRC, sat at a desk-like affair. Of course, that type of engine would never run any real distance "backwards" in the lead. But it was my impression that current freight diesels use that type of control arrangement. No? From what I saw, it seems like it would be hard to use that desk setup while facing away from it.
The Desk Top controls was all the rage in the 90's and early 21st Century - not so much today as the people who order the locomotive are beginning to hear the complaints for the people that actually use the locomotives.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Interesting. Thanks, Balt.
BaltACD Lithonia Operator Larry, is the "standard AAR stand" something that is installed nowadays? Or is that something in the past? Not too long ago, as part of my work, I rode in a modern Amtrak engine. That engineer, IIRC, sat at a desk-like affair. Of course, that type of engine would never run any real distance "backwards" in the lead. But it was my impression that current freight diesels use that type of control arrangement. No? From what I saw, it seems like it would be hard to use that desk setup while facing away from it. The Desk Top controls was all the rage in the 90's and early 21st Century - not so much today as the people who order the locomotive are beginning to hear the complaints for the people that actually use the locomotives.
Lithonia Operator Larry, is the "standard AAR stand" something that is installed nowadays? Or is that something in the past? Not too long ago, as part of my work, I rode in a modern Amtrak engine. That engineer, IIRC, sat at a desk-like affair. Of course, that type of engine would never run any real distance "backwards" in the lead. But it was my impression that current freight diesels use that type of control arrangement. No? From what I saw, it seems like it would be hard to use that desk setup while facing away from it.
I heard it had to do with ergonomics. Supposedly they started getting more claims for carpal tunnel syndrome because of the way the different levers are set on the desk tops.
I like the 'retro' style control stand. The only downside is it takes up so much room in the cab. They liked to the wide nose units 'comfort' cabs. The way the control stand, third seat and maybe PTC gear are stacked in a cab, 'cramped cab' is more appropriate.
Jeff
Overmod zugmann I heard rumors a while back that CSX was requiring that the leading unit in a consist had to have PTC if one of the engines were so equipped - even if facing backwards. Again, a rumor. That would make nifty sense if PTC aids in running without clear vision, or if operations require the PTC to be as near the head of the train as possible. Where it makes less sense is that the antenna and presumably GPS fix is now 60-odd feet behind the actual front of the train, which the algorithms may not expect or be able to compensate for. It'll be interesting to see how this works out in practice...
zugmann I heard rumors a while back that CSX was requiring that the leading unit in a consist had to have PTC if one of the engines were so equipped - even if facing backwards. Again, a rumor.
That would make nifty sense if PTC aids in running without clear vision, or if operations require the PTC to be as near the head of the train as possible. Where it makes less sense is that the antenna and presumably GPS fix is now 60-odd feet behind the actual front of the train, which the algorithms may not expect or be able to compensate for.
It'll be interesting to see how this works out in practice...
I think when you reach a certain level of PTC compliance, all leading engines have to be equipped and operable out of the intial terminal. At first, if the lead engine had working PTC, you ran with it. If not, no big deal. Once we reached that certain level, lead engines out of the originating terminal have to have working PTC. Reaching that level is probably on a subdivision/region level rather than the entire railroad. I know other sections of UP were requiring PTC leaders before my area did.
The subdivisions I run on have reached that level. We also still have to have a operable cab signal/ATC equipped leader for those territories incase the PTC fails. The cab signals aren't used, but have to be available just in case. I'm guessing that once our PTC is fully certified, the cab signals - or at least the ATC - will go away fast.
BaltACD Need to ask the FRA for the 20 MPH requirement without ditch lights. Supposedly humans cannot sense speed from a single point of light coming at them - supposedly they can with three points of light.
Need to ask the FRA for the 20 MPH requirement without ditch lights. Supposedly humans cannot sense speed from a single point of light coming at them - supposedly they can with three points of light.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingDo they need to have the ditches illuminated?
True ditch lights lit up ditches. Canadian roads like BC Rail had those for ages. They are usually cross-eyed.'
What are commonly referred to as "ditch lights" on most engines are actually "auxillary" or "crossing" lights.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannTrue ditch lights lit up ditches. Canadian roads like BC Rail had those for ages. They are usually cross-eyed.'
Mohawk, Adirondack and Northern has a former BC Rail unit with both true ditch lights and auxiliary lights. I don't know that I've ever seen the ditch lights on, but that would be a sight coming down the railroad at you...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy SidingSeeing the three light pattern tells my brain it's a train, but that's just a railfan thing because I'm used to looking for it. Do the ditch lights really preform a service for the train crew? Do they need to have the ditches illuminated?
The German railroads in the mid-1970s had a three-white-light triangle pattern on their locomotives, and I understood that it provided just this sort of gauge of absolute distance and speed with a little proportional 'experience.' This made enough of an impression on me that my subsequent designs featured its analogue with American sealed-beam lights (a full FRA-compliant headlight being at the 'apex' of the triangle)
There's a bit of a problem with the way FRA implemented the ditch lights in that the size of the 'triangle' is not fixed -- only the presence of the three light locations. When the 'base of the triangle' is restricted as it is on the chipmunk-faced F units the experienced grasp of distance is thrown off. That is a rookie mistake in haptics.
I have seen ditch lights with beams oriented slightly 'wall-eyed' on both KCS in Shreveport and SP/SSW south of Brinkley down to Bossier City. KCS added to this a 'scanning' circular Gyralight-type beam that picked out a great deal of surrounding ROW and bridge detail that no fixed lights bearable to oncoming traffic could provide. To me it makes better sense to have a pattern pointed 'where headlights would aim' rather than as the equivalent of high beams to give oncoming traffic the longest possible glare blindness as an 'optical alert'. Alternate flashing does that better, and doesn't in fact require full brilliance straight ahead to work well. (Provided the pattern spacing is familiar!)
zugmann Murphy Siding Do they need to have the ditches illuminated? True ditch lights lit up ditches. Canadian roads like BC Rail had those for ages. They are usually cross-eyed.' What are commonly referred to as "ditch lights" on most engines are actually "auxillary" or "crossing" lights.
Murphy Siding Do they need to have the ditches illuminated?
Murphy Siding What's in the ditch that you want to see?
Really big rocks. They ran through some mountain territories.
PGE/BC Rail called them "corner lights". CN started using portable "mountain lights" in the late 1950s on trains west of Jasper, AB. In both cases the extra lights are angled so you can see better around curves, for the aforementioned rockslides.
When running at 15-30 mph with a relatively short train you actually have a chance of stopping before an obstruction, if you can see it in time. The few seconds and few hundred feet of extra visibilty from the ditchlights could be the difference between life and death for the crew.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudePGE/BC Rail called them "corner lights". CN started using portable "mountain lights" in the late 1950s on trains west of Jasper, AB. In both cases the extra lights are angled so you can see better around curves, for the aforementioned rockslides.
Let's not forget the Canadian locomotives with the headlight on a horizontal pivot and a cable arrangement to turn it from side to side to light up the ROW around curves or away from the line of the train. A good solution in the days when high-intensity separate ditchlights would have involved something like carbide-generated acetylene...
On an NS engine I saw yesterday, the ditch lights flashed, alternating side to side, as it approached the grade crossing. I thought that was particularly effective. Maybe "flash" is not exactly correct; they are lit alternately, for a second or two.
The legislation concerning what we call 'ditch lights' is in 49 CFR 229.125 and 229.133. Their purpose according to Federal law is to improve "conspicuity".
The original version in the mid-Nineties specified that the alternate-flashing feature was optional, but if provided had to conform to certain criteria. The flash rate, for example, can be anywhere from 40 to 180 alternations per minute.
The most recent revision of this appears to be in 2012, when there was a bit of clarification regarding what the Government considered these. Now there is a difference between 'strobes' and 'oscillating lights' -- but these aren't what you or I would think those terms meant, and you'd probably be well-advised to read this in the original Federal Register language (referring back to 49 CFR 229.125 as necessary) to be sure you have the right idea.
If I recall correctly, the orientation video for the P42 locomotive describes the controls to turn the flashing on and off, including how it is 'interlocked' with the horn.
BaltACDAmtrak's NEC electric locomotives are double ended since they run between origin and destination and return without need to turn the locomotive, benefiting the overall operation. Amtrak's diesels are single ended; their runs are not 'shuttle' kinds of service;
Extending this a bit: Amtrak's electrics, particularly the ACS64s, are intended to operate primarily as single units, with relatively high horsepower, and therefore it makes sense to double-cab them for speedy reversal without turning. Amtrak's Genesis engines are almost always used in multiple, so you'd need 2x the number of cabs with all the associated paraphernalia, lengthened frame, and weight associated with that. Since you could get the same 'effect' as a double-ended electric simply by coupling two P42s 'cabs-out' it would be of little value to treat each diesel as double-ended. I would note that very seldom does Amtrak seem to use this with its Genesis consists; they apparently prefer to wye or turn them.
The dynamic-brake arrangements for DC locomotives don't involve nearly the size, or the fan capacity, of the main combustion-engine cooling radiators, which on many modern locomotives are tilted in order to increase their effective size: GE traditionally puts them in 'batwings' as seen, for example, on U34CHs; EMD cants them outward (see the difference between the two types of SD70 in the big UP order, as well as the SD45 (early) and 9043MAC (later). On the other hand, the GP50s and 60s generally have no flares, and the tunnel-motor arrangement pointedly lacks extended heat-transfer surface 'up high' on the hood.
DB as you noted is closer to the cab; in many cases it is in a small blister with its own dedicated fan, or in the hood closer to the cab. On the true SD90s with H engine the dynamic brake had an angled frame, whereas on the "9043s" it is straight-sided. Since the elements are much hotter than radiator cores in service, heat transfer from a smaller area is more efficient.
There is no reason to use the 'same' fans and airflow and surface grille for DB and for cooling. In fact, some locomotives split the cooling of the turbocharger intercooler from the cooling of the engine itself ... with neither being associated with dynamics.
OvermodIf I recall correctly, the orientation video for the P42 locomotive describes the controls to turn the flashing on and off, including how it is 'interlocked' with the horn.
The interlock seems to be the norm on CSX locomotives as well. Watching the Deshler cam you'll easily see it on northbounds as they hit the several crossings.
You'll also see the lights start flashing when they give the usual two toots to start moving. And every now and then you'll see a train moving without the auxiliary lights on (engineer forgot to turn them on), but they'll still start flashing when they hit the horn.
Inasmuch as our locomotives are all vintage, the switches for the auxiliary lights are all over the place, and we don't have the flash option.
The Eastern roads seem to like the flashing option. SP did too. The IAIS' GEs were built to CSX standards, so those lights flash. The rest of their fleet doesn't.
I've had the chance to run some with the flashing ditch lights. I prefer the ones that don't. Especially in foggy/misty conditions.
I can see where the flashing feature may not be so great from the engineer's perspective. But for a motorist thinking of beating the train at a grade crossing, to me the flashing adds to a sense of danger, a desirably more intimidating warning.
jeffhergertI've had the chance to run some with the flashing ditch lights. I prefer the ones that don't. Especially in foggy/misty conditions.
I haven't run any locomotives with flashing auxiliary lights, nor have I run any with oscillating lights. But they're only flashing for the 20-30 seconds on approach to a crossing - not as distracting as if they were flashing all the time.
I have, however, driven emergency vehicles with alternating high beams - and I've been known to shut them off when they weren't needed. For that matter, most of the alternating high beam systems I have experience with (going back to the late 1960's) override the flashing if the regular high beams are activated. If you're running at night on country roads (which would be the case most of the time for me) you're going to want the high beams on unless you're meeting traffic anyhow.
I haven't driven any emergency vehicles with oscillating lights - although I've seen videos where they were in use. Kind of distracting.
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CSX bells ring when the horn is blown but they can be shut off. You don't have to wait for them to time out. The ditch lights also flash even if not turned on and they do have to time out unless you shut off the switch on the engine control panel.
I did not like to run with ditch lights on at night. They are too bright right in front of the engine making it hard to see things further away where there might be time to react to what you see. Since they flash when you blow the horn, whether they are turned on or not, they provide plenty of warning at grade crossings.
They are good for seeing switch positions at slow speed as in a yard.
Mark
Overmod SD70Dude PGE/BC Rail called them "corner lights". CN started using portable "mountain lights" in the late 1950s on trains west of Jasper, AB. In both cases the extra lights are angled so you can see better around curves, for the aforementioned rockslides. Let's not forget the Canadian locomotives with the headlight on a horizontal pivot and a cable arrangement to turn it from side to side to light up the ROW around curves or away from the line of the train. A good solution in the days when high-intensity separate ditchlights would have involved something like carbide-generated acetylene...
SD70Dude PGE/BC Rail called them "corner lights". CN started using portable "mountain lights" in the late 1950s on trains west of Jasper, AB. In both cases the extra lights are angled so you can see better around curves, for the aforementioned rockslides.
This actually just came up in a conversation today. Apparently it worked quite well and the crews liked it. The mechanical linkage was connected to the pilot truck, so the headlight turned as the front of the engine entered a curve. And the angle was directly proportional to the degree of curvature.
CN tried movable headlights on the first order of GP7's that had the large barrel headlights (as modeled by 4803), but the mechanism was air-powered. This had a "all or nothing" tendency, and was not considered to work well.
The original "mountain lights" run off the snowplow plug (lower left in the above photo). I am told that they were also used on steam locomotives, although I have never seen a photo of one so equipped.
This also meant that they could be fitted to a diesel unit built without front MU connections, as modelled by 6501:
I hadn't recognized entirely what he meant until seeing the preceding photo of 'mountain lights'. Note the visible cross-eyed look. This gives good 'ditch' and wayside illumination without increasing the glare hazard to oncoming traffic; in other words, just the reverse of the intention of the FRA 'triangle-base' lights.
mvlandswI did not like to run with ditch lights on at night. They are too bright right in front of the engine making it hard to see things further away where there might be time to react to what you see.
I will say that I did not like it when meeting other trains the engineer would not dim his lights!
BigJimI will say that I did not like it when meeting other trains the engineer would not dim his lights!
I actually feel bad when I'm sitting in the locomotive, waiting for the passengers (600) to board our Polar Express trains. Even though I'm on a completely separate track, and not moving, trains on the CSX main (Chicago Line) will dim their lights for me.
Normally, while just sitting there idling, I've got the headlight on the lowest possible brightness, and the auxiliary lights are off.
I've been known to kill my lights entirely when I first see them coming in the distance.
tree68Normally, while just sitting there idling, I've got the headlight on the lowest possible brightness, and the auxiliary lights are off.
I didn't know you had multiple settings. How many are there?
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Paul of Covington I didn't know you had multiple settings. How many are there?
I think most units have two (plus off), ie, low and high.
We have one unit that has three, plus off.
If you see a DPU on the rear of the train, the headlight will be at the low setting, serving as the rear marker.
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