This week I observed something I'd never seen before, a locomotive running with the long hood forward. I know they're made to be bi-directional. Other than the obvious issue of the engineer not being able to see any unpleasant surprise coming from the left side, is there anything else that makes running long hood forward more difficult?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding This week I observed something I'd never seen before, a locomotive running with the long hood forward. I know they're made to be bi-directional. Other than the obvious issue of the engineer not being able to see any unpleasant surprise coming from the left side, is there anything else that makes running long hood forward more difficult?
If there aren't ditch lights on the long hood end, then it is restricted to 20 MPH over road crossing.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy SidingOther than the obvious issue of the engineer not being able to see any unpleasant surprise coming from the left side, is there anything else that makes running long hood forward more difficult?
First of all, on locomotives with desks the controls are still over on what is now the left side, and some aren't sideways but facing straight back... which is now of course behind where the engineer is sitting to see out.
You can judge some of the visibility issues by the size of the right-side-in-normal-direction rear cab window, which is now the front. The view "forward" along the long hood is complicated, on a GE, by the large overhang of the radiators, so your vision to the front is shall we say circumscribed. You'll probably want to have the cab side window open to lean out some of the time...
A locomotive like this is equally able to run in either direction pulling a train; it is certainly not equally able to BE run in either direction...
Oddly, seldom a week or two goes by before I see something with relatively modern power and long-hood-leading leaving the ex-Southern intermodal yard at the eastbound end, opposite the grade-separated crossing where that line goes over the ex-IC freight cutoff line. The last one I saw was on an intermodal stack consist and the long-hood problems didn't preclude the train getting to 45mph before I lost him due to morning road traffic.
If the loco has an AAR stand and there are two sets of eyes, it's not really a problem. Our excursion trips have to run one way with the long hood leading because we have no way to turn the locomotives.
Recall that "in the beginning" virtually all Diesel/electrics were set up to run long hood forward. Even with the short hood leading, when they were full height, you needed two sets of eyes.
And some locomotives were built with two control stands, one for each direction.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Here in New Bern NC, where we are hanging out for a couple of weeks, yesterday I saw a northbound train come through with a modern wide-cab engine, running long hood forward. From all I can gather it had to have run that way all the way from Morehead City, about 35 miles way. This type of engine looks odd running long hood forward, with the dynamic brake radiators being the chief visual feature as it approaches.
There is a small NS yard here. Maybe the train terminates there, but maybe it goes much farther with long hood forward. There is a wye here, so the engine could be turned if desired.
I now wonder if the train always goes south in normal mode, and always runs north with long hood forward. I believe there is a wye in Morehead City, but maybe they don't want to take the time to turn the engine.
I hope to figure out the routine before we leave here 1/1.
Having good mirrors helps a lot.
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zugmannHaving good mirrors helps a lot.
Is it legal, or possible, to 'bring your own mirrors' if you know or suspect you'll be stuck with a long-hood-forward consist? (Or switching with one of these locomotives?)
I remember reading long ago (in Trains, regarding Alcos that usually didn't keep their water and would create a 'hunting season' effect at transition) that savvy engineers would carry certain common components in their grips, together with certain 'workaround' pieces. I well remember the calibrated stack of pennies that several people mentioned would adjust Baldwin governors. Does any of that spirit or practice, which I understand has been 'officially' done away with, still apply anywhere?
I dunno. Our engines have good mirrors. If one gets broken, it gets replaced.
zugmann, are you saying that the engineer just sits at the controls normally, facing the A end (towards the train), and keeps track of the track ahead (behind him) with mirrors!?
Lithonia Operatorzugmann, are you saying that the engineer just sits at the controls normally, facing the A end (towards the train), and keeps track of the track ahead (behind him) with mirrors!?
I do not speak for all engineers. I only speak for one engineer: me. I don't exclusively use my mirrors (never said that), but they help a lot.
Thanks!
Mirrors are very helpful when switching or to check out the train while moving, but, I never used the mirror to run by when running over the road long hood forward and sitting on the wrong side. The big thing that impaired vision were the radiator sections of the car body sticking out in the way, the big flaired ones being the worst.
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I couldn't really discern exactly what the angle of view would be, particularly for a tall engineer, but it did seem to me that those radiators would significantly restrict vision.
I called them "dynamic brake radiators" (the flared-out ones). Am I correct? Or are those just prime-mover engine radiators?
In Europe a cab at each end of the locomotive is common, making the locomotive perfectly bidirectional to operate. Check out the EMD Class 66. These "sheds" are used throughout Great Britain and other parts of Europe as well as in Egypt. Not sure why the same design wouldn't work here.
UlrichIn Europe a cab at each end of the locomotive is common, making the locomotive perfectly bidirectional to operate. Check out the EMD Class 66. These "sheds" are used throughout Great Britain and other parts of Europe as well as in Egypt. Not sure why the same design wouldn't work here.
Control stands and everything required for them cost money and the sum, when involved in the purchase of 100 or more locomotives is not unconsequental.
Amtrak's NEC electric locomotives are double ended since they run between origin and destination and return without need to turn the locomotive, benefiting the overall operation. Amtrak's diesels are single ended; their runs are not 'shuttle' kinds of service; and where it is they have taken to using their Cabbage and other similar strategies to facility quick turnarounds.
True enough.. and here each end would need to be a safety cab design as well.
Lithonia Operator I called them "dynamic brake radiators" (the flared-out ones). Am I correct? Or are those just prime-mover engine radiators?
No, those large flares on GEs and also modern EMD/Caterpillar engines like the SD70ACe are the main engine radiators, not dynamic brakes.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Thanks, Chris.
After I wrote that, I thought to myself that I have long assumed they were for the dynamics, but really wasn't sure.
On older geeps, didn't a smaller, similar-looking (more like a blister) section cool the dynamics?
The locomotive I saw on the local is one of BNSF's old Geeps. They have them in green, blue, orange and now and then a silver/pink color. I never thought about the engineer being on the lefthand side while running 'backwards'. As long as you have a set of eyes on each side of the long nose, reading signs and signals is not an issue then? Are most signs and signals on the right hand side of the track?
BaltACD If there aren't ditch lights on the long hood end, then it is restricted to 20 MPH over road crossing.
Murphy Siding BaltACD If there aren't ditch lights on the long hood end, then it is restricted to 20 MPH over road crossing. Wouldn't most modern locomotives have ditch lights? Rebuilt Geeps, for example. What's the logic behind the 20 mph speed limit?
Wouldn't most modern locomotives have ditch lights? Rebuilt Geeps, for example. What's the logic behind the 20 mph speed limit?
Most all of the AC engines I have seen DO NOT have ditch lights on the long hood end - at least on CSX. For the most part, SD-40's and four axle locomotives DO have ditch lights on both ends, as these locomotives are most frequently used in Yard, Local Freight and Road Switcher services.
At one point in time, the Power Bureau got 'brownie points' for all the trains they could power up with only a single unit. Great! Until that train terminate at a location that does not have engine turning facilities, and effectively that single unit cannot be used to move a train in the reverse direction as a leader.
I don't know what the costs of ditch lights are per unit. My guess would be somewhere between $2500 & $5000 per unit. I have seen 'portable ditch lights' used in some locations on other carriers.
Need to ask the FRA for the 20 MPH requirement without ditch lights. Supposedly humans cannot sense speed from a single point of light coming at them - supposedly they can with three points of light.
You used to be able to count on signals being anywhere from directly in front of you (overhead) to the right side of the tracks, but nowadays all you need to be able to do is determine which signal is for your track. It could be--and often is--on the mast to the left of you (I guess sales on bridges and masts aren't as good as they used to be). However, you should be able to see the signals far enough in advance that a long hood, even with the radiator appurtenances, interferes with observation little more than a high short hood would be.Think about it...the engineers on steam locomotives almost always had a long "hood" ahead of them. They had a fireman, true, but he was often occupied. The calling of signals across the cab was a safety precaution more than an absolute necesity. There were times in the yard, when curves and other layout anomalies would require a person on the opposite side to pass hand and lamp signals to the engineer (I did that more in my pre-railroading career than I did while I was getting paid), but that's a whole 'nother story.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
BaltACDAt one point in time, the Power Bureau got 'brownie points' for all the trains they could power up with only a single unit. Great! Until that train terminate at a location that does not have engine turning facilities, and effectively that single unit cannot be used to move a train in the reverse direction as a leader.
Under PSR they want as many trains as possible to run with a single engine. We lost a ouple of our 4 axles for half as many 6 axles. But we have ditchlights on the long hood ends of probably just about all (minus maybe a very few?) engines though.
I heard rumors a while back that CSX was requiring that the leading unit in a consist had to have PTC if one of the engines were so equipped - even if facing backwards. Again, a rumor.
zugmannI heard rumors a while back that CSX was requiring that the leading unit in a consist had to have PTC if one of the engines were so equipped - even if facing backwards. Again, a rumor.
That would make nifty sense if PTC aids in running without clear vision, or if operations require the PTC to be as near the head of the train as possible. Where it makes less sense is that the antenna and presumably GPS fix is now 60-odd feet behind the actual front of the train, which the algorithms may not expect or be able to compensate for.
It'll be interesting to see how this works out in practice...
Overmod, which the algorithms may not expect or be able to compensate for.
I believe they do. You have to tell PTC which way the engine is facing.
If the engine I saw, a safety-cab one, had indeed come all the way from Morehead City (about 35 miles away) long hood forward, would that be quite unusual?
Am I correct in assuming that the hogger's seat can at least revolve all the way around?
Back in the days before the safety cabs, one would see almost all leading Southern units running long hood forward; I am told this was for collision protection. But weren't those units set up so that the controls were alongside the engineer, not in front?
Lithonia OperatorIf the engine I saw, a safety-cab one, had indeed come all the way from Morehead City (about 35 miles away) long hood forward, would that be quite unusual? Am I correct in assuming that the hogger's seat can at least revolve all the way around? Back in the days before the safety cabs, one would see almost all leading Southern units running long hood forward; I am told this was for collision protection. But weren't those units set up so that the controls were alongside the engineer, not in front?
Remember - Both N&W and SOU were big time believers in operating long hood forward with high short hoods until the manufacturers made such configurations a 'extra cost option' - only then did they start taking delivery of engines with low nose short hoods as the front of the engine.
Many of the existing NS engines were purchased when long hood forward was desired. With engines built long hood forward, engineers have no worse view than if they were operating a steam engine with the boiler ahead of the engineers cab.
In the day, signals for all US railroads, except CNW, were set up for 'right hand running' and signals were installed to facilitate it on the right side of the tracks. Recently carriers have been installing signals on either side of main tracks - in many cases a single signal mast will have signal heads facing in both directions, such installations reduce construction costs - train crews be damned.
BaltACD only then did they start taking delivery of engines with low nose short hoods as the front of the engine.
That didn't stop them. They still had them set up long hood lead. GP60s, B32s, SD40s were like that.
think it was the SD70 was the first EMD that did not have a high hood option that they ran short first.
Lithonia OperatorBut weren't those units set up so that the controls were alongside the engineer, not in front?
The standard AAR stand can be run pretty easily in both directions.
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