BaltACD Murphy Siding You can see the edge of a tie in the lower left hand corner. Hols a wide ruler in front of your screen parallel to that tie edge. You'll see that the start of the burn on the far rail is right where you'd think it should be if the axel in was parallel to the rails. Mystery solved. Scooby dooby doo! If the axle was parallel to the rails, we would be talking about tie burns, not rail burns. No Scooby snacks for you!
Murphy Siding You can see the edge of a tie in the lower left hand corner. Hols a wide ruler in front of your screen parallel to that tie edge. You'll see that the start of the burn on the far rail is right where you'd think it should be if the axel in was parallel to the rails. Mystery solved. Scooby dooby doo!
If the axle was parallel to the rails, we would be talking about tie burns, not rail burns. No Scooby snacks for you!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I still think the one on the far rail is further to the right; but after looking at it a lot now, I think it's only about 8 ins. off of alignment, not a foot as I stated earlier.
Murphy Siding BaltACD Murphy Siding You can see the edge of a tie in the lower left hand corner. Hols a wide ruler in front of your screen parallel to that tie edge. You'll see that the start of the burn on the far rail is right where you'd think it should be if the axel in was parallel to the rails. Mystery solved. Scooby dooby doo! If the axle was parallel to the rails, we would be talking about tie burns, not rail burns. No Scooby snacks for you! Can we compromise and call them rotary friction tie forged upsets?
Can we compromise and call them rotary friction tie forged upsets?
Are wood or concrete (normal tie materials) forgable materials?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Murphy Siding BaltACD Murphy Siding You can see the edge of a tie in the lower left hand corner. Hols a wide ruler in front of your screen parallel to that tie edge. You'll see that the start of the burn on the far rail is right where you'd think it should be if the axel in was parallel to the rails. Mystery solved. Scooby dooby doo! If the axle was parallel to the rails, we would be talking about tie burns, not rail burns. No Scooby snacks for you! Can we compromise and call them rotary friction tie forged upsets? Are wood or concrete (normal tie materials) forgable materials?
Lithonia Operator I still think the one on the far rail is further to the right; but after looking at it a lot now, I think it's only about 8 ins. off of alignment, not a foot as I stated earlier.
There is a very large change of angle between those to lines which in reality are both perpendicular to the rails. The line related to the tie plate is aligned with the left ends of the two rotary friction forged upsets. But that line is still not appear perpendicular to the rails. This is because the photographer is standing to the left of the actual centerline axis of the two rotary friction forged upsets.
I would say that if the photographer took one or two steps to the right, he/she would coincide with the centerline axis of the two upsets; and then the visual alighment of them would fall on an axis that would appear to be perpendicular to the rails. In other words, step to the right and watch the two rotary friction forged upsets move into apparent alignment with each other.
In actuality, they are aligned with each other crosswise to the track as would be expected. And if you were standing where the photographer was, the view would look radically different than the photograph.
To the question above; wood and concrete cannot be forged.
Forging uses pressure to change the shape of material. It can be done cold or it can be done by adding heat to cause the material to reach a plastic condition. That would be like a blacksmith hammering red hot iron on an anvil. In changing the shape, some material can be removed by displacing it into the form of a burr and then removing the burr.
This displacement of metal is an “upset.” It is a forged upset caused by the pressure of the locomotive weight and the heat produced by the friction of the spinning wheel. The nature of the tool being a spinning wheel is a rotary action. More specifically, it is a radial rotary action as opposed to an axial rotary action. So a better name would be: Radial Rotary Friction Forged Upset. It could be referred to as an RRFFU.
I would agree that it is a form of rail burn, but way too extreme and unusual to be called that. Rail burn causes slight RRFFU damage to just the surface of the rail head due to accidental wheel slip events. Where wheels tend to slip on grades, the long stretches of rail can become marked with rail burns every few feet or less. Eventually the rails may be replaced due the burn damage, but typically, no one burn is sufficient to take the rail out of service.
However, these extreme burns that dig right down through the rail are not caused by routine wheel slip, but rather, by some unusual condition that causes prolonged and unrealized wheel slip. These extreme events require the track to be taken out of service for immediate repair.
EuclidTo the question above; wood and concrete cannot be forged. Forging uses pressure to change the shape of material. It can be done cold or it can be done by adding heat to cause the material to reach a plastic condition.
Bentwood is made by soaking or steaming wood and bending it to a desired shape. Forged is not the term used here.
Heat, pressure, and "shapechanging" were terms he used.
Heat and pressure will in fact deform wood, and as the illustration confirms, the "shape changing" can be dramatic.
EuclidSo a better name would be: Radial Rotary Friction Forged Upset.
So flat wheels would be caused by lateral friction forged upset?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Euclid may call them whatever he/she/they wants.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
tree68 Euclid So a better name would be: Radial Rotary Friction Forged Upset. So flat wheels would be caused by lateral friction forged upset?
Euclid So a better name would be: Radial Rotary Friction Forged Upset.
I think so, especially if they flatten catastrophically and completely pass through the wheel tread like spinning wheels work through a rail. In both cases, there is a forging and upset action by causing the metal to flow in a plastic manner.
Euclid tree68 Euclid So a better name would be: Radial Rotary Friction Forged Upset. So flat wheels would be caused by lateral friction forged upset? I think so, especially if they flatten catastrophically and completely pass through the wheel tread like spinning wheels work through a rail. In both cases, there is a forging and upset action by causing the metal to flow in a plastic manner.
WOW, and it stayed on the rail! Why did the other wheel on the axle not flaten?
Electroliner 1935WOW, and it stayed on the rail! Why did the other wheel on the axle not flaten?
Only thing I can think of is that somehow the flat wheel lost the interference fit on the axle - the axle kept turning the the flat wheel did not.
BaltACD Electroliner 1935 WOW, and it stayed on the rail! Why did the other wheel on the axle not flaten? Only thing I can think of is that somehow the flat wheel lost the interference fit on the axle - the axle kept turning the the flat wheel did not.
Electroliner 1935 WOW, and it stayed on the rail! Why did the other wheel on the axle not flaten?
We had one that started out as a small flat spot due to an unreleased handbrake. We figure that as time went along the wheel started finding that spot when the brakes were applied. While it was being watched by our mechanical folks, for a long while it was more of an annoyance than anything.
I suspect that the bigger the flat spot got, the more likely it was to settle there and slide, rapidly taking the flat spot to the point were the wheel was condemned.
Convicted OneHeat, pressure, and "shapechanging" were terms he used. Heat and pressure will in fact deform wood, and as the illustration confirms, the "shape changing" can be dramatic.
But that is not forging, any more than friction-stir upset is forging. (And friction-stir with the applied weight on the axle(s) being the feed is the relevant 'action' in producing these divots... the amount of 'forging' or hot axial pressing going on being incidental at best, even though the amount of applied spot force started out being fairly high...)
Bentwood involves heating the composite structure of the wood until the internal 'glue' softens and melts, and then applying force to shape the fibrous portion as desired. When it cools, it re-hardens with much the same physical characteristics as the original. There is no lateral change to compress the fibers to greater integrity, which is one of the actions in forging/hot pressing.
Friction stir is a useful technique for autogenous welding, somewhat less so for producing simple upset forms (compared to resistance or external heating).
That picture is almost certainly a broken wheel, not a slid-flat. There is no evidence whatsoever of heat damage to the web or tread, which would have the same bluing damage you see in the six-divot picture (and the debris) whereas there is dramatic shelling damage to the visible tread right down to the point of "intersection" with the railhead.
A very, very good illustration, though, why three-piece trucks have been so successful in railroad service!
I would think the wheel broke at some point instead of sliding to that extent of flatness. From the condition of the remaining part, the wheel had been under a lot of stress for a while.
Jeff
OvermodThere is no lateral change to compress the fibers
You're quite sure of that, are you? I suggest you take a little time to inspect a worthwhile sample size of bentwood, paying particular attention to induced deviation in grain patterns at bend points, and then get back to me.
Compression from one side of the piece compared to the other is unmistakable.
There are a few publications put out there by the usda, in PDF format that you might wish to review as well.....
Convicted OneYou're quite sure of that, are you?
I've worked with bentwood since I was in my teens. Did specialized research into it in college. Including the use of directed whipping to allow tighter compound bends. I do know how the techniques work.
The compression you mention is incidental to augmented strength; it's a consequence of the bending technique with materials of nontrivial cross-section. It is most certainly nothing comparable to forging in metals.
OvermodThe compression you mention is incidental to augmented strength;
I agree that there is no productive gain in strength due to the deformation, but to the best I can determine by reading this thread there were no claims of any gain in strength relevant to the discussion of the rail or the ties, either.
Convicted OneI agree that there is no productive gain in strength due to the deformation, but to the best I can determine by reading this thread there were no claims of any gain in strength relevant to the discussion of the rail or the ties, either.
You certainly have me there! I too can't imagine what gain there would be in 'forging' ties (either wood or metal) or in friction-heating rail.
There is a long history of destructive damage to concrete ties from even incidental flange contact, an indication that whatever strength might be gained from post-tensioning, it doesn't apply out of the plane of the tendons. There were some discussions in the ACA about exactly when to bring the tendons up to final tension in high-early-strength cure with the assumption there would be a little further compaction (and compressive strength increase) as the curing temperature rise dissipated and the final effective chemical changes in structure ran to completion ... but I don't remember which of the arguments were either correct or authoritative. Certainly after curing any attempt to 'compact' the tie further would be more likely to induce cracking or spalling.
If we aren't careful, a certain someone will start discussing how sun kink force changes the cross-section of constrained rails (now, with the added theoretical consideration that the force 'forges' them to a different metallurgical state or density). If we're really lucky, the 'someone' will get ahold of a CRC Handbook and some metallurgical references and actually produce numbers to back up the magnitude and significance.
Forgive me if I wait to make the popcorn until then.
Now let's discuss the forgability of rarely used steel ties.
(Sorry about that. Just wanted to join the silliness.)
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Forged knuckles anyone???
Paul of CovingtonNow let's discuss the forgability of rarely used steel ties.
I'm from Jersey -- Forgaddaboudid.
OvermodIf we aren't careful, a certain someone will start discussing how sun kink force changes the cross-section of constrained rails
jeffhergert BaltACD Electroliner 1935 WOW, and it stayed on the rail! Why did the other wheel on the axle not flaten? Only thing I can think of is that somehow the flat wheel lost the interference fit on the axle - the axle kept turning the the flat wheel did not. I would think the wheel broke at some point instead of sliding to that extent of flatness. From the condition of the remaining part, the wheel had been under a lot of stress for a while. Jeff Jeff, That makes more sense than much of what gets posted on here. Thanks
What is difficult to accept about rails getting fatter if they must grow longer but are restrained? The metal has to go somewhere.
Okay, kids. I was hoping you wouldn't make me come down here. But, oh the skeptics ...
I drew the red lines as basically an extension of the edges of the visible tie and tie plate. Only I set them slightly outside of that, so you non-believers can see a bit of the snow, to confirm that my lines are parallel to the references. So, where the tie edge is is just inside of the red lines. So then I drew the green line to correspond to the actual tie edge; then when I got to the rail, I went up vertically, to join the rail head at a right angle. The green line shows the difference in the left side of the far rail burn, compared to the near one. It's geometry, folks. Don't tell me about distortion. I am using the photo itself as my references. It is what it is. And the photo does not have that much distortion, anyway. The view looks to be from a 35 mm lens on a 35 mm camera; not really very wide. Significant distortion comes with lenses 28 mm and wider.
The difference in burn positions is about 6 inches, I'd say.
Then there is this way of looking at it. The green line connects the two left extremeties of the burns. You can see that the line does not go at a right angle across the track.
As you were.
Anybody want to tell me how to get the photos (not just the icons) to show up in the post.
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