I believe the technical term for this is "engine burn". I've never seen anything even close to this one:
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Holy crow!
Are you sure that's not some Photoshop trick?
Lithonia Operator Holy crow! Are you sure that's not some Photoshop trick?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Are you serious????
An engine spinning its wheels because it can't move the load can do THAT? Man, the noise must make you feel your head's about to explode! And once the engine sinks at all into the depressions, even initially when the dips are shallow, it is NEVER getting out, right?
Are you guys putting me on? That is an easy pic to make in Photoshop.
This isn't the railroad version of a snipe hunt, is it, with all the rest of the forum members laughing at me now?
Rail burns are real. When discovered, track is taken out of service until the rails are replaced.
My understanding, and it could be wrong - it will most likely happen when a number of engines have been hooked up in MU and a electrical fault activates a circuit when it shouldn't. Hook up 10 engines in MU and the 9th from the leader for whatever the reason thinks it has been told to more forward or backward while the train is stopped and the commands through the MU cables should have all engines at idle and potentially the reverser centered.
With the 9th engine being over 200 yards from the leader, the sounds of it 'grinding rail' are unlikely to be heard by the crew on the leader. Trains can be held for a variety of reasons for periods of a hour or more. The train causing the burns may never know it happened until they are told about it later.
There are probably thousands of different defects, each rare, that can set up the scenario. The burns picture are especially bad, but lesser burns do happen too.
Holy mackerel.
If this happened as you describe, then the unknowing crew goes to depart, a derailment is assured, right? (At least incidents involving depressions approaching the depth of those shown in these pix.)
BaltACD Lithonia Operator Holy crow! Are you sure that's not some Photoshop trick?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I recollect CSX used to have a section of burned rail, presumably used as some sort of instructional display at the REDI Center here in Atlanta. Although it only had the burn from a single wheel; it was similar to those in the photos posted above.
We've got a spot on a major grade that's got a nice "rumble strip" from some train in the past spinning like that. They probably stalled on the hill.
It's not burned deeply enough to be a problem for us, but you know you've gone over it. I suspect it's been like that since at least PC days.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I don't know where they came from but these pix have been posted over and over again for about 10 years. Enough.
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SD70Dude I believe the technical term for this is "engine burn". I've never seen anything even close to this one:
Lithonia OperatorThat is an easy pic to make in Photoshop.
I wonder how hot the wheel became when spinning, and whether the wheels (especially in BaltACD's image) put on a nice light show.
there is a tale of such that occurred in the GN tunnel in Washington that had three phase power. The train was heavy, and when the engine crew became worried that they were still in the tunnel, they stopped the engine, went down to the ground--and found that the wheels had ground down into the web of the rail. The account had no description of how the matter was resolved. (From The Modern Wonder Book of Trains and Railroads--I do not hve my copy here.)
Johnny
That incident was also described in Middleton's When the Steam Railroads Electrified. Torque from a three phase induction motor is very smooth, so there may not have been any of the usual signs of slipping that one would expect with a steam locomotive.
Lithonia OperatorIf this happened as you describe, then the unknowing crew goes to depart, a derailment is assured, right?
Nobody's departing with divots that deep. Did you think pulling would lift the wheels out?
Likely the train would be recovered from the 'reverse' direction, and any power ahead of the unit that slipped run off, then the unit jacked up and off the truck, the truck removed with a crane, then the two pieces of rail excised and new ones bolted/welded in place. Presumably a new truck would be supplied 'in place', either a replacement to be wired up or something like a three-piece freight truck of suitable rating to allow the unit to be moved to a location for easy work.
There's a video of a "6000hp" CSX locomotive receiving 'emergency' work for what I recall being a seized traction motor, and this contains many details that would be applicable to a unit with severe heat damage to its wheels and truck structure...
SD70DudeI believe the technical term for this is "engine burn". I've never seen anything even close to this one:
I have a problem with this.
First, the burns don't align across the gauge correctly to be 'two wheels on the same wheelset' unless there'd been a significant derailment putting the truck off axis. Second, the 'grinding debris' is the wrong color (see the genuine six-wheel burn image for something more correct in this situation). It is possible that I see 'proper' flange wear in the molten "pour" in the gauge, but it doesn't seem right to me.
Meanwhile, what is that in the background?
Are there other pictures, or a backstory, for this?
Overmod SD70Dude I believe the technical term for this is "engine burn". I've never seen anything even close to this one: I have a problem with this. First, the burns don't align across the gauge correctly to be 'two wheels on the same wheelset' unless there'd been a significant derailment putting the truck off axis. Second, the 'grinding debris' is the wrong color (see the genuine six-wheel burn image for something more correct in this situation). It is possible that I see 'proper' flange wear in the molten "pour" in the gauge, but it doesn't seem right to me. Meanwhile, what is that in the background? Are there other pictures, or a backstory, for this?
I just don't get how the divots could be that far off of directly across from each other, in any scenario, and still be on the rails grinding away. That pic seems fishy to me.
I'm not saying SD70Dude altered the photo; I'm guessing he came to have the photo after it was altered, unknown to him.
And of course, maybe the photo IS legit.
zardozThe photo in SD70Dude's post shows what looks like grinding debris on the ties either side of the divots, plus on the rail head immediately adjacent to the dips, which makes me think the image is legit.
It's completely legit. We have sections of rails near our yard office that were burned down to the web.
Remotes (esp trailing engines*) have done this at a few places. They are supposed to stop if they detect wheelslip, but if the wheelslip detection sensor/card isn't working, well...
*- when you get wheelslip, it throws the speedometer up into the higher ranges, which will give a fault if it's the controlling engine.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Overmod I have a problem with this. First, the burns don't align across the gauge correctly to be 'two wheels on the same wheelset' unless there'd been a significant derailment putting the truck off axis. Second, the 'grinding debris' is the wrong color (see the genuine six-wheel burn image for something more correct in this situation). It is possible that I see 'proper' flange wear in the molten "pour" in the gauge, but it doesn't seem right to me. Meanwhile, what is that in the background? Are there other pictures, or a backstory, for this?
I think the burns are aligned, especially when you consider that a wheelset spinning out of control would rock around at angles, and not continue to sit perfectly aligned with the track. The wheelset may not have been perfectly centred on the track either, due to pre-existing rail or wheel wear.
The debris looks to be a appropriate colour to me, remember, it's not just going to be ground high-strength steel. There is also going to be all the dirt, grease and other non-metal materials that are being blasted off the underside of a truck and its traction motors.
The machine in the background is a track saw, which is the perfect tool for cutting out damaged sections of rail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoYBFrJDrlI
The photo was posted to one of the many railroad-related Facebook groups, but now I can't remember which one (was pretty tired when I posted that).
I thought that there would not be enough "slop" for one side to creep up that far. But I guess there is more space between the wheel flanges and the rail than I thought. The less slop, the less it would be able to pivot and creep.
I keep learning stuff here!
If you expand the picture in the original post they do seem to be properly aligned; compare with the tie. Likely taken with a wide angle lens which can create some distortion.
John
Don't think the welder is gonna save you here....
SD70DudeThe machine in the background is a track saw, which is the perfect tool for cutting out damaged sections of rail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoYBFrJDrlI The photo was posted to one of the many railroad-related Facebook groups, but now I can't remember which one (was pretty tired when I posted that).
Don't think shorts and flip-flops are the recommended safety gear for using the saw.
Deggesty there is a tale of such that occurred in the GN tunnel in Washington that had three phase power. The train was heavy, and when the engine crew became worried that they were still in the tunnel, they stopped the engine, went down to the ground--and found that the wheels had ground down into the web of the rail. The account had no description of how the matter was resolved. (From The Modern Wonder Book of Trains and Railroads--I do not hve my copy here.)
Similarly; Recalling a story (w/Photos?), that appeard in TRAINS. I do not remember the time frame, but I think it has been several years back...
It was a story of a NS crew some place in the South (Alabama, or Feorgia?); There was a trestle on fire, and the lead locomotives rolled out on the structure, and became stalled out(?).
The crew attempted to back the locomotives back off the trestle, and were unable to move the power out of damger. The tracks were damaged much in the manner reported by "Dude" in this Thread. As I recall, the Engineerr and Conductor had stayed too long on the power and were apparently trapped in the fire enveloped locomotive. The unfortunate part was that both men were seriously burned, as a result of their staying on the power. I believe they finally jumped into the water under the trestle. One did not survive, due to severe burns(?); the other was very seriously injured in jumping off the engine(?)
Part of the problem was their inability to move the power out of danger; due to the deep indents worn into the tracks by the power of the locomotives wheels.
Must be a sight to see if it happens at night.
"OOOOOOO!" "AHHHHHHH!"
The streetcars here will occasionally have a wheel that spins out of control in relation to the other wheels as the car travels along, say King Street. You can see the shallow impressions it makes on the rail but nothing like in these photos. Hell of a noise they make too. That was mostly on the CLRVs that have all been retired.
Yeah, the sparks thrown off must have been spectacular!
cx500 If you expand the picture in the original post they do seem to be properly aligned; compare with the tie. Likely taken with a wide angle lens which can create some distortion. John
With all due respect, I disagree.
I spent 35 years as a commercial photographer. I have a very well-honed sense of proportion and perspective in photographs.
Let's say we are looking basically north, and the track goes west-to-east, left-to-right in the photo. The divot on the far rail is approximately a foot (I think a bit more, actually) further east than the one on the near rail.
Now, folks here tell me that could have actually happened that way in real life, so that's good enough for me. But the divots do not align.
The photo is distorted. Look at the wheel on the truck. Looks more ovalish than round.
As far as getting out, once they pull the wheels out of their initial holes, I'd imagine you could stack wood blocks in them and walk the rest of the wheels over it? (luckily I never got into a position like that)
I've seen more miracles performed by an older MOW guy with some blocks than any modern magician.
Looking at the photo while on a smart phone held vertically, yes it is distorted. But if I turn my phone horizontal, the pic is not distorted. Part of my the side of the car's tire looks narrow is because the car is not seen directly from the side; it's facing generally towards the photographer, but about 30 degrees off.
The divots don't align.
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