What's changed that makes this such a big issue now? Trains and railroaders have been around for almost 200 years... Have schedules become tighter and more erratic? First time I heard of train crew fatigue was in 1986, after the head-on in Hinton, AB where (as I understand it) two engineers, two brakeman and a fireman were all asleep.. i.e. clear view for miles.. no brakes applied prior to the collision. Not much about fatigue in the trade press as I recall either.. Now, I'm not talking about changing work rules surrounding changes like using beltpacks and questions of safety as distinct from fatigue.
https://www.railwayage.com/safety/hours-of-service-where-weve-been-where-we-need-to-be/
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Huge difference between having 2-3 men on the ground doing work, vs. having just one person by himself doing it all. Just the walking alone...
Then there's the issue of "digital eye strain" from all the monitors engines have now.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
One of the Trains magazines some time back contained an account of an engineer who was asleep yet managed to blow for every crossing nonetheless.
That was the purpose of telling the story, but the fact that the engineer was asleep is also significant.
Seems like it was early Diesel era.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Ulrich What's changed that makes this such a big issue now? Trains and railroaders have been around for almost 200 years... Have schedules become tighter and more erratic? First time I heard of train crew fatigue was in 1986, after the head-on in Hinton, AB where (as I understand it) two engineers, two brakeman and a fireman were all asleep.. i.e. clear view for miles.. no brakes applied prior to the collision. Not much about fatigue in the trade press as I recall either.. Now, I'm not talking about changing work rules surrounding changes like using beltpacks and questions of safety as distinct from fatigue.
At Dalehurst the crew at fault consisted of a Engineer, one Brakeman (on the head end) and a Conductor (on the caboose). The passenger crew was operating on clear signals and were not at fault.
I can only speak for CN, but fatigue has always been an issue, and for many years it was swept under the rug and was not formally addressed. As was noted crews were larger in the past, and if the operation went smoothly on a through train (one without any switching) not all of them were really needed. So if you came to work tired it was possible, though officially against the rules, to catch a nap while on duty. Management was also more tolerant of employees missing calls to work (especially in the pre-cellphone era), booking sick or booking unfit.
Then things started to change. Crew size was reduced, eliminating many of the opportunities to slack off while on duty. Hunter Harrison arrived, and management started cracking down on employees who missed calls or booked off. The company actually removed "unfit" as a status from the computer system , and refused to allow employees to book off for that reason (it was reinstated a couple years ago, but is still frowned upon). Supervisors stepped up their harrassment of train crews, and would go out to sidings and sneak onto stopped locomotives to try and catch crews sleeping (this practice continues today).
In the quest for "balance" the deadheading of crews became rare. Crews started to be held at the away-from-home terminal for much longer periods, in many cases longer than the maximum times allowed under our collective agreements. The company also started ignoring the articles of the agreements which empower us to book rest after being on duty for 10 hours.
The overall effect was that tired employees would not book off for fear of discipline and/or dismissal, and go to work tired instead. They would then work longer, harder hours, and spend far more time away from home. All the while they became more and more stressed, due to the cumulative effect of always looking over their shoulders for the supervisors hiding in the weeds.
I emphasize again, none of this is new. In fact, rest was a major part of the 2007 CN strike, as (among other things) Harrison tried to cut the amount of rest crews could take, and extend or eliminate the time limits on layovers. Rest has been a big issue in every subsequent contract negotiation, but nothing has been done. In 2013 we were legislated back to work with binding arbitration imposed, and in 2017 CN backed down from trying to cut our rest, after being told that we would not be legislated back.
The 2013 agreement brought a big change: call windows. Employees working with a window can only be called to work at the home terminal during certain hours, instead of 24/7. Such employees also have a guaranteed minimum income.
But the current window arrangement is far from ideal. First off, the windows are 7 days a week, employees do not get regular days off. And when working a window we can only book up to 14 hours rest upon arrival at home, down from the 24 hour max that all other unassigned service* employees can book. Further, each time you book more than 10 hours rest at home your guaranteed pay is reduced. And the windows have not been implemented everywhere, the majority of unassigned service employees are still on-call 24/7.
*Unassigned service refers to working anything that does not have a regular, assigned start time. Yard, Roadswitcher, Wayfreight and a small number of Throughfreight assignments do have assigned start times, and most have regular assigned days off. Many road assignments are required to work 6 shifts a week, and some have very long layovers at away-from-home terminals.
One could write a 500+ page book about the last 30 years of our rest and fatigue issues, but this brief summary will have to do for now.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
tree68 One of the Trains magazines some time back contained an account of an engineer who was asleep yet managed to blow for every crossing nonetheless. That was the purpose of telling the story, but the fact that the engineer was asleep is also significant. Seems like it was early Diesel era.
I remember reading that, as I recall this particular case was on C&NW commuter trains in and around Chicago during the 1960s.
Similar stories abound, including those of freight Conductors who spend most of their run fast asleep, only to awaken at just the right time to see and call important signals on the radio.
Not fatigue-related, but another form of engineer conduct, but not involving safety:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/judge-orders-union-pacific-to-rehire-enginner-who-defecated-on-train
This is a little off the topic of this thread.
Does alcohol play any part in any of the this? I think that drug tests would catch marijuana usage even after a long period, but not alcohol.
I know a respected commercial pilot who is an alcoholic. I asked him if he ever flew drunk, and he said that he had not. He had, however, missed flights after drinking too much, sometimes in airport lounges. He no longer drinks.
If a pilot has an alcohol problem, he is prohibited from flying. That discourages co-pilots and others from reporting the drunk pilot because they like him and don't want him to lose his job.
Is there any similar issue with engineers and conductors, and what do the railroads do to prevent it?
York1 John
York1 I know a respected commercial pilot who is an alcoholic. I asked him if he ever flew drunk, and he said that he had not. He had, however, missed flights after drinking too much, sometimes in airport lounges. He no longer drinks. If a pilot has an alcohol problem, he is prohibited from flying. That discourages co-pilots and others from reporting the drunk pilot because they like him and don't want him to lose his job.
The airlines have very good treatment programs if you admit a problem voluntarily. They don't want to lose all the money that they put into training you. If you show up at work drunk, it's all over.
Thanks.
Sorry about misusing terms. I've probably watched too many movies.
I can only go by what my friend with 30 years in the cockpit, retired for 10 years, told me. I have no airline (or railroad) experience.
After retirement, my friend worked with the union in the alcohol treatment program working with other pilots. He said it was very difficult to get problem pilots to admit they had an issue and come for treatment. He also said that others were reluctant to report them if they had suspicions.
When I was still working - CSX supported 'Operation Red Block'. Operation Red Block was a program where a employee - in any craft - could mark off when the knew their performance was impaired by drugs or alcohol. No other questions asked.
That being said, notation was made to the employee's attendance record of the incident. Subsequent Red Block mark offs would have the company initiate a counciling program for the employee.
Employees working with the 'affected' employee also had the power to mark them off 'Red Block' when they reported for duty 'under the influence'.
At one time 'back in the day' it was normal to think that railroaders needed three things - nicotene, caffeine and alcohol to keep things moving. In the present day of railroading two of those have been effectively removed. Caffeine is still used in coffee - mass quantities of coffee.
I don't know of the Red Block program was continued after the arrival of EHH, train and engine crews did have their 'legal napping' rules eliminated by EHH's arrival.
BaltACD Caffeine is still used in coffee - mass quantities of coffee.
Pretty much been replaced my Monster energy drinks where I am. Even the bosses drink that stuff.
Sounds a bit like the Marine Corps when I was in. Back in those days without coffee, cigarettes, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches the Corps would have ground to a halt!
Alchohol? Not on the job, ever. After hours, anything went!
Plenty of studies have been done over the years on sleep deprivation and fatigue in the workplace. Not sure why the science wouldn’t be front and center in determining the number of train crew needed and their scheduling. I understand that its complex with many variables to consider, but we put men on the moon over 50 years ago..surely by 2020 we should be able to schedule people to match workloads without anyone having to work in a chronically fatigued state. I generally prefer less government intervention, but here I see an important role for the government..to (on behalf of all of us) bring the latest science to the problem and to develop regulations accordingly that would apply to everyone involved in the trade. That’s more or less how it is in trucking.. the rules, however imperfect they are, apply to all involved..same should be the case for railroads. There really should be no discussions about rest windows and such.. the rules should be clear and enforceable by a third party if need be.
Ulrich...same should be the case for railroads. There really should be no discussions about rest windows and such.. the rules should be clear and enforceable by a third party if need be.
There are rules, but subject to interpretation. This stuff needs to be taken off the bargaining table.
As I see it, the railroads want the most they can wring out of their workers, even if it means said workers are working fatigued, etc.
And the union wants everyone to be working regular schedules, etc.
Clearly both can't have it their way. Setting regulations that consider the science would probably mean neither side would get what they would like, but, because it would be directed, it would not be negotiable.
For unassigned railroaders, freight pool and extra boards, one of the biggest problems is trying to figure out when you're going to work and get your sleep accordingly. Yes we have line ups, but they're far from accurate. Even within a few hours it can be hard to tell. (The worst is watching a train that is at the point where they usually call the outbound and then they stop, sometimes for hours. Usually it seems like this happens at night. Especially those times you've had trouble sleeping that afternoon and are hoping to go to work ASAP.) I've watched my mark (the expected job and time) to fluctuate 12 hours, one way and then back the other. Sometimes jobs appear and disappear on the line ups. They are supposed to place deadheads on the line up at least 6 hours before they're called. Still once in a while they pop up. Other times they appear a day in advance (our default line-up setting is 36 hours) and prompted, which means they activated to be called for the time indicated, and then they disappear.
Sometimes the problem isn't enough time off (minimum 10 hours now), but too much time off. We've been alternating between 24 hours +/- to 50 hours +/- off. For me, 24 to 30 hours is ideal. When ever there was an incident, they always liked to throw out there that the crew members had X amount of time off. They don't do that anymore, probably because someone realized that someone with a lot of time off between runs may have had their sleep "groove" thrown off. Which means, with time off one tends to fall back into a 'normal' sleep pattern. Sleeping at night, maybe for a couple of nights and then getting up in the morning and then seeing you're mark is midnight that night.
A co-worker reminded me of something I said to him once when going to work in the wee hours of the morning. He asked me if I was rested. I told him, "The law says I am."
Jeff
A very good write-up by one of my co-workers in Edmonton:
Leslie Lukan I am a railroader and I love many things about my job, however like every job there is a downside! Less than 24 hours ago my brothers and sisters who work as conductors went on legal strike after the union and company could not reach a contract agreement. Now many people may think these men and women are looking for higher wages, but the fact of the matter is we make enough money. What many will tell you is that railroaders want to have the OPPORTUNITY to be home with our families. A typical shift for me is about 32-36 hours. When I get home I can take between 8-24 hours off. I will typically go to work 3 times a week, so about 108 hours a week! Some of my brothers and sisters after the same trip can only take 14 hours off to be at home! Wow! Shocking! So they will be at home potentially less than 1/2 the time they are at work and work many more hours than me in a week! Ask any of my coworkers and they will say I definitely work a lot less than the majority and I will still make close to six figures this year. Some of my colleagues will make almost double what I will make, because they can not take time off to be at home. More money will not buy these men and women happiness, but time with their friends and family will bring than more joy and happiness! A blessed life is not about your bank account, it’s about the experiences and the people you spend time with. To learn more about my job and me check out the link below! https://saitalumnilink.ca/2019/09/leslie-lukan/?fbclid=IwAR0SBhcJ2hssJmgvNPmp1NJDgwe2jBxCbLR6LsS7dt_cTOjvPnJ8BKppV0E
I am a railroader and I love many things about my job, however like every job there is a downside! Less than 24 hours ago my brothers and sisters who work as conductors went on legal strike after the union and company could not reach a contract agreement. Now many people may think these men and women are looking for higher wages, but the fact of the matter is we make enough money. What many will tell you is that railroaders want to have the OPPORTUNITY to be home with our families. A typical shift for me is about 32-36 hours. When I get home I can take between 8-24 hours off. I will typically go to work 3 times a week, so about 108 hours a week! Some of my brothers and sisters after the same trip can only take 14 hours off to be at home! Wow! Shocking! So they will be at home potentially less than 1/2 the time they are at work and work many more hours than me in a week! Ask any of my coworkers and they will say I definitely work a lot less than the majority and I will still make close to six figures this year. Some of my colleagues will make almost double what I will make, because they can not take time off to be at home. More money will not buy these men and women happiness, but time with their friends and family will bring than more joy and happiness! A blessed life is not about your bank account, it’s about the experiences and the people you spend time with. To learn more about my job and me check out the link below!
https://saitalumnilink.ca/2019/09/leslie-lukan/?fbclid=IwAR0SBhcJ2hssJmgvNPmp1NJDgwe2jBxCbLR6LsS7dt_cTOjvPnJ8BKppV0E
And we are expected to prepare for those 32-36 round trips by looking at the unreliable lineups Jeff discussed.
I should also note here that another factor not yet mentioned is the practice of calling crews in turnaround service at the away-from-home terminal. If you are called for such a turn you will be expected to work a additional shift of up to 12 hours, and then go off-duty again at the away-from-home terminal. Getting such a call will add another 20 hours onto your already long round trip, and there is no additional advance notice of when the company plans to call crews like that.
On CN we are relatively lucky in that we can only be called for one turn at the AFHT, after that the next shift has to take us home. Other railroads, including CP do not have that limitation.
Ulrich Plenty of studies have been done over the years on sleep deprivation and fatigue in the workplace. Not sure why the science wouldn’t be front and center in determining the number of train crew needed and their scheduling.
Plenty of studies have been done over the years on sleep deprivation and fatigue in the workplace. Not sure why the science wouldn’t be front and center in determining the number of train crew needed and their scheduling.
You are right, the science exists. The companies choose to ignore it because of $$$$. The unions have so far been unable to get them or the government to take this problem seriously. It does not help that a fair number of individual employees like to be able to work as much as possible, and do not want additional restrictions.
Ulrich I understand that its complex with many variables to consider, but we put men on the moon over 50 years ago..surely by 2020 we should be able to schedule people to match workloads without anyone having to work in a chronically fatigued state. I generally prefer less government intervention, but here I see an important role for the government..to (on behalf of all of us) bring the latest science to the problem and to develop regulations accordingly that would apply to everyone involved in the trade. That’s more or less how it is in trucking.. the rules, however imperfect they are, apply to all involved..same should be the case for railroads. There really should be no discussions about rest windows and such.. the rules should be clear and enforceable by a third party if need be.
I understand that its complex with many variables to consider, but we put men on the moon over 50 years ago..surely by 2020 we should be able to schedule people to match workloads without anyone having to work in a chronically fatigued state. I generally prefer less government intervention, but here I see an important role for the government..to (on behalf of all of us) bring the latest science to the problem and to develop regulations accordingly that would apply to everyone involved in the trade. That’s more or less how it is in trucking.. the rules, however imperfect they are, apply to all involved..same should be the case for railroads. There really should be no discussions about rest windows and such.. the rules should be clear and enforceable by a third party if need be.
Transport Canada is currently reviewing our Railway Hours of Service regulations, with an eye toward reducing the maximum hours we are allowed to work. The initial submissions by CN and CP were both rejected, but the railways have been given until early December to revise and re-submit their proposals. CN shared their initial proposal with the Union, as I recall it contained only minimal changes. CP won't tell anyone what their proposal contains, so they probably don't have one.
Unfortunately, the Hours of Service regulations do not take into account time spent at the AFHT, which is a major quality of life issue for railroaders.
SD70DudeI should also note here that another factor not yet mentioned is the practice of calling crews in turnaround service at the away-from-home terminal. If you are called for such a turn you will be expected to work a additional shift of up to 12 hours, and then go off-duty again at the away-from-home terminal. Getting such a call will add another 20 hours onto your already long round trip, and there is no additional advance notice of when the company plans to call crews like that. On CN we are relatively lucky in that we can only be called for one turn at the AFHT, after that the next shift has to take us home. Other railroads, including CP do not have that limitation.
When I first had the Georgia RR as a part of my territory on CSX's Atlanta Division. The 'contract' required 'Extra' crews to be sent to their Home Terminal after being away from Home for 14 Days. 14 Days. This was a local contract that applied to ONLY Georgia RR crews working between Augusta (Home) and Atlanta and also protecting intermediate service of the 'New Georgia RR Dinner Train to Stone Mountain', ballast train turns between Atlanta and the quarry at Lithonia, Plant Harllee coal trains going Georgia Power's plant at Milledgeville, GA.
The Dinner train was 'short turnaround' service, starting and ending in Atlanta. The Lithonia ballast trains were also 'short turnaround' service out of and back to Atlanta. The Plant Harllee trains would take rest at Milledgeville upon arrival. They would be called back on duty when the train was empty - the empties COULD either go back to Atlanta or on to Augusta, depending upon the Coal Departments needs. The crews 'caught' working the jobs that ended back in Atlanta were only REQUIRED to be sent to Augusta on the 14th Day after they originall departed Augusta. I have no idea who the local Union representatives were that negotiated the contract - it is obvious they didn't want a home life.
Subsequently a 4 Trip agreement was negotiated. Augusta to Atlanta = Trip 1; either of the turnarounds counted as a Trip. To Plant Harrlee was a Trip, from Harrlee to Atlanta was a Trip. After the Total number of trip equalled 4 - crew had to be sent home to Augusta.
Augusta is not a very long - 2 hour - drive back to Atlanta.
But the crews' cars were in Augusta.
Can one of you current railroaders explain in really simple terms WHY management wants to work people this way?
If they are paying by the trip anyway, would they really pay much more if they just hired more train crews?
I understand the need for an extra board, and the uncertainty of call times on regular assignments, given the fluid nature of running trains.
It seems extremely dangerous to operate as described in this thread and elsewhere. Not to mention inhumane.
In the article, Leslie the engineer says her shifts are generally 32-36 hours. (!)
In my day a "shift" was one stint on the job, usually 8 hrs. Or for a train crew as much as 12 hrs before the dog law got them.
When she says "shift," does she mean the total time away from home including away-terminal rest periods. She must. Can someone make an educated guess, breaking down how that 32-36 hours is actually spent.
In any event, though RR work is always going to have trying schedules, a lot of what goes on now is clearly insane.
Lithonia OperatorCan one of you current railroaders explain in really simple terms WHY management wants to work people this way?
I can't speak for management, and as a railroader, I'm a volunteer, but...
Many businesses prefer to pay existing employees overtime rather than simply hiring another employee. Why? Because there are overhead costs for each employee. Apparently, paying overtime is cheaper than paying another employee with his/her overhead costs. All about the dollars.
One would think that PSR (which is, of course, neither precision nor scheduled) would cure part of this...
Last night, chat on the Deshler rail cam indicated that there were three trains sitting on the mainline, waiting to get into the North Baltimore intermodal yard. One would think this kind of hang-up could be avoided with some planning. Perhaps if crews were considered more than just another resource, it would be.
Lithonia Operator Can one of you current railroaders explain in really simple terms WHY management wants to work people this way?
Why do the rich work to get richer - because they can. Management has greed and power as their motivating factors.
Lithonia OperatorIf they are paying by the trip anyway, would they really pay much more if they just hired more train crews?
The simple rate of pay is only one aspect that applies to the employee head count. The 'fringes' - vacation, RRB, healthcare etc., lead the carriers to want to accomplish more productivity with a lesser head count.
Lithonia OperatorI understand the need for an extra board, and the uncertainty of call times on regular assignments, given the fluid nature of running trains. It seems extremely dangerous to operate as described in this thread and elsewhere. Not to mention inhumane.
In managements 'mindset' they are being 'overly' humane with the world conditions the exist today, as they view what the conditions were over a Century ago as the way things should be (except for the number of people). They look at it as 'You were looking for a job when you hired out, if you don't 'like' the job you have, you are free to go looking for a job again.'
I am not saying that is right, just that is the way it is.
charlie hebdoAugusta is not a very long - 2 hour - drive back to Atlanta.
That is correct and I suspect some crews used the two vehicle means of dealing with the 'away from home' situation. That being said, Extra Board calls are 2 hour affairs. One gets NOTIFIED at 0415 to be at the On Duty site at 0615.
Secondarily, the Offical rest period starts at the time crews 'register off', which is very shortly after the arrive at their desination terminal. In the period I discribed, the minimum Full Rest period was 8 hours, which in reality means that 6 hours after your Registered Off time you could be getting notification to be at the on duty site in TWO hours - ready for another 12 or more hours working. 8 hours can pass very quickly if you add in 2 hours each way between the on duty site and the individual's rest site.
Yep. It might take me a half hour to get home. Then another 30 minutes to clean up and eat something. Then I'd go to bed and hope I could doze right off (which was not aided by the anxiety of knowing time was slipping away!), but 5 hours later I could be getting a call. After the interruption, if I could get back to sleep, it was never for very long. It was brutal.
I was new to the railroad then, so the hassle was compensated for by the excitement of working on the railroad. But by the time I was able to get regualr jobs, I was more than ready.
Then there was the swing-shift job where I worked 2 days, 2 evenings, and 1 night. My "weekend" was all of 24 hours actual off-time.
It's a good thing the read-back routine for train orders was virtually fail-safe, because sometimes I was a zombie. But obviously train crews had it worse. However, nowadays conditions are clearly much worse.
tree68As I see it, the railroads want the most they can wring out of their workers, even if it means said workers are working fatigued, etc.
Penny-wise and pound-foolish!
BaltACD charlie hebdo Augusta is not a very long - 2 hour - drive back to Atlanta. That is correct and I suspect some crews used the two vehicle means of dealing with the 'away from home' situation. That being said, Extra Board calls are 2 hour affairs. One gets NOTIFIED at 0415 to be at the On Duty site at 0615. Secondarily, the Offical rest period starts at the time crews 'register off', which is very shortly after the arrive at their desination terminal. In the period I discribed, the minimum Full Rest period was 8 hours, which in reality means that 6 hours after your Registered Off time you could be getting notification to be at the on duty site in TWO hours - ready for another 12 or more hours working. 8 hours can pass very quickly if you add in 2 hours each way between the on duty site and the individual's rest site.
charlie hebdo Augusta is not a very long - 2 hour - drive back to Atlanta.
If PSR were actually a return to precisely scheduled, on a timetable trains, the crappy on-call system could be reduced or eliminated. Maybe more like how medical people do it. When I was on staff in a medical clinic, we rotated on-call weekend and night duties, so it was predictable.
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