I think I spoke a bit too soon about the greater implications of this situation.
Here is the original letter describing the RBMN cessation of operations in Jim Thorpe.
But two days later, on the 18th,came this notice about revised Santa trains which clearly indicates they are "terminating their relationship with the Borough of Jim Thorpe" and notes "Although many communities asked us to consider running trains from their towns, we decided to focus our 2019 Christmas trains on those communities that had existing facilities. As we move forward with our 2020 plans we will be reaching out to many communities to see how we can bring the joy of railroading to as many people as possible."
I had thought the only thing that was ceasing was the LGSRy presence in Jim Thorpe (at the end of the notice on the 16th it said "Closure of LGSR does not affect RBMN passenger operations from other locations to Jim Thorpe."), but the subsequent notice seems to indicate that the other trains that run from Pottsville or Reading Outer Station via Port Clinton, and any trains that RMBN might choose to run through the gorge to Old Penn Haven (including a new version of the bike trains), may be rerouted or not stop at Jim Thorpe at all if they pass it. It doesn't appear (as of today, the 24th) that the issue is open to any discussion (at least at present).
daveklepper Yes. Amusement includes enjoyment. But enjoyment definitely does not necessarily include amusement. Regarding the Property Tax. The tax on emply undeveloped property is usually a lot lower than property that has been developed. The property taxes the railroad pays reflect that they are used for a profitable freight business and reflect the state of development. The railroad was and continues paying its fair share of the burdens of the community before this addiitonal tax was levied on it. There are probably other taxes involved, also. Equating a grand work of nature with an amusement park or a theater is to trivialize it. I would add a religious dimension to this discussion if the rules permitted, but instead: Is it possible that this is the same kind of trivialization that the Colorado Highway Department implemented?
Yes. Amusement includes enjoyment. But enjoyment definitely does not necessarily include amusement.
Regarding the Property Tax. The tax on emply undeveloped property is usually a lot lower than property that has been developed. The property taxes the railroad pays reflect that they are used for a profitable freight business and reflect the state of development. The railroad was and continues paying its fair share of the burdens of the community before this addiitonal tax was levied on it. There are probably other taxes involved, also.
Equating a grand work of nature with an amusement park or a theater is to trivialize it. I would add a religious dimension to this discussion if the rules permitted, but instead:
Is it possible that this is the same kind of trivialization that the Colorado Highway Department implemented?
The property tax the railroad, or anyone else, pays on its facility is based on its value, not on any measure of what amount of services they use. Property taxes are not designed on supporting the services used by hundreds of tourist decending on the town and using those services. That is what airport fees, hotel taxes, and amusement taxes are for. Value added taxes would also capture some tourist dollars, but would be much more of a burden on the locals, who are also paying property taxes.
I never equated nature with an amusement park. Some people riding the scenic train may do that, but that is their choice.
Overmod I think I spoke a bit too soon about the greater implications of this situation. Here is the original letter describing the RBMN cessation of operations in Jim Thorpe. But two days later, on the 18th,came this notice about revised Santa trains which clearly indicates they are "terminating their relationship with the Borough of Jim Thorpe" and notes "Although many communities asked us to consider running trains from their towns, we decided to focus our 2019 Christmas trains on those communities that had existing facilities. As we move forward with our 2020 plans we will be reaching out to many communities to see how we can bring the joy of railroading to as many people as possible." I had thought the only thing that was ceasing was the LGSRy presence in Jim Thorpe (at the end of the notice on the 16th it said "Closure of LGSR does not affect RBMN passenger operations from other locations to Jim Thorpe."), but the subsequent notice seems to indicate that the other trains that run from Pottsville or Reading Outer Station via Port Clinton, and any trains that RMBN might choose to run through the gorge to Old Penn Haven (including a new version of the bike trains), may be rerouted or not stop at Jim Thorpe at all if they pass it. It doesn't appear (as of today, the 24th) that the issue is open to any discussion (at least at present).
Both links brought me to the same letter, which I believe may be the first one you referenced.
I am confused about RBMN's route map. I thought they did not go to Scranton, that Delaware Lackwanna was the only RR in town.
And if the do go to Scanton, why is no connection with DL shown? (They do show a connection to NS at Taylor Yard.)
daveklepperThere are many great works of nature that don't demand an entrance fee. One can fly over those where one is charged with a light plane and not pay sn entrance fee.
Actually some parks (eg. Grand Canyon NP) have needed to restrict flights over the park because they were getting to be a problem.
daveklepperI think if you were to ask a USA Rqnger the quesition: Is the entrance fee charged a fee to see Nature's wonders or is it a fee for upkeep, for facilities, and people that facilitate the visits, he or she would answer the secod, of course.
Bingo!
daveklepperWho is reponsible for the existance of Lehigh Gorge? Does the town do anything to maintain it?
No, Jim Thorpe maintains the town services the tourist use at the boarding point.
daveklepperIm a sense, fo rme, personally, the Town's levi on this partifular item seems a small theft.
The town's duly elected officials decided that the railroad needs to support the services they provide to the passengers who are drawn to the rail's scenic train.
Lehigh Gorge is within Lehigh Gorge State Park, which is owned and maintained by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (DCNR). It basically consists of 4 things: the Lehigh River; the mountains on each side of the River; the former roadbed of mostly the Central RR of New Jersey, which is now a wide (ex-double track) rail-trail; and the active rail lines of NS and RBM&N.
- PDN.
I was struck by the eighth post in this thread:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43827&sid=951ce2562662542d7133640d1985ea86
and who it is by.
[quote user="MidlandMike"]
[/quote above]
But calling it an Amusement Tax is exactly such a trivialization. And the services people riding the train to and from Lehigh Gorge are no different than those riding the train elsewhere.
Lithonia Operator I was struck by the eighth post in this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43827&sid=951ce2562662542d7133640d1985ea86 and who it is by.
You get some really interesting commentary by some really (surprisingly) famous names over on RYPN.
His comment speaks volumes, especially considering that Mr. Rowland is notorious on that forum for being a grouch who does not hold back his low opinions of other people or groups, including municipal goverments (some here will recall the 503 saga).
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Calling it an "Amusement Tax" is the trivialization. And don't the passengers on the other trains require the same services from the Town? And don't some of the freight shippers and receivers?
daveklepper And don't the passengers on the other trains require the same services from the Town?
I suspect that it comes down to where the ticket is sold.
A train originating outside of Jim Thorpe borough may not be subject to the tax, even if the train travels to Jim Thorpe, the passengers disembark and shop/eat/whatever in Jim Thorpe. Those same passengers, having already paid for their passage at a point outside of the borough, then reboard the train and ride back to the point of origin.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
SD70Dude Lithonia Operator I was struck by the eighth post in this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43827&sid=951ce2562662542d7133640d1985ea86 and who it is by. You get some really interesting commentary by some really (surprisingly) famous names over on RYPN. His comment speaks volumes, especially considering that Mr. Rowland is notorious on that forum for being a grouch who does not hold back his low opinions of other people or groups, including municipal goverments (some here will recall the 503 saga).
Interesting stuff on that RYPN Forum, but I have to correct Mr. Chuck Richard's post.
The American Revolution wasn't about taxation, it was about self-government. Taxation was the symptom, not the disease.
Very briefly, the British North American colonies were essentially self-governing from the outset and had very little interference from the Mother Country. After the French and Indian War that changed, and Parliament began exerting more and more control over the colonies. Well, after 150 years of colonial self-government it was too late, it just wasn't going to work, either over taxation or anything else.
Off-topic I know, but the Revolution is a favorite study of mine and I just couldn't let it go.
The whole affair sounds like a personality conflict.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lithonia OperatorBoth links brought me to the same letter, which I believe may be the first one you referenced.
Sorry if that happened. I kept editing that post as I came across different details. The letters are on the RBMN website (www.rbmnrr.com/news)
Notification of closing LGSRy:
https://www.rbmnrr.com/happenings/2019/10/16/lgsr-to-cease-operations-november-25-2019
Rescheduling of Santa Trains:
https://www.rbmnrr.com/happenings/2019/10/18/reading-amp-northern-announces-new-santa-train-schedule
Both of these will produce a PDF copy if you click them, and it's possible to cut and paste text from that version.
According to Ross Rowland's post on RyPN, the town paid RBMN $600K for a "flagger" during road construction. Say what!?
The RR has run the passenger train for twelve years. That's 50K/yr. $50K/yr. is damn good money for a job flagging traffic, particularly when you consider the RR only runs about 6 months a year. And that assumes a 12-year construction site!! (Which clearly did not happen.)
That's also (if accurate) six times what the town says the railroad owes them. Which would make it seem that Ross has a good point ...
What am I not getting here?
Lithonia Operator According to Ross Rowland's post on RyPN, the town paid RBMN $600K for a "flagger" during road construction. Say what!? The RR has run the passenger train for twelve years. That's 50K/yr. $50K/yr. is damn good money for a job flagging traffic, particularly when you consider the RR only runs about 6 months a year. And that assumes a 12-year construction site!! (Which clearly did not happen.) That's also (if accurate) six times what the town says the railroad owes them. Which would make it seem that Ross has a good point ... What am I not getting here?
I think that comment by Ross needs some clarification. The price sounds high, but there is no context by which to judge it. Just how much flagging was done for $600,000?
He also implies that this was somewhat of an overpayment, a gift to the railroad disguised as a payment for flagging. He implies that this gift was a quid pro quo soften the cost of the new tax on the railroad. So, I think his comment raises many questions that need answers.
Lithonia OperatorWhat am I not getting here?
That it probably wasn't the town's, but the state's money involved, and that the flagging was required by law. All RBMN did was provide the personnel; I think; any other 'contractor' would likely have been paid the same. I do think this could be 'looked into' further, but it seems to be obvious to me that if the town had wanted to do the job of flagging with its own people, it easily could have.
When I said the tax collection was in 'response' to the $600,000, I was thinking more in terms of there being 600K in revenue, a substantial part of which was probably bookable as profit in that quarter, and some of the folks in town thought it might be time to see if any of that could be captured. That is pure speculation.
I had a semantic diagram on this thread that was removed by the Moderator because it both included words having zero to do with the subject and led to discussions, semantic, both possibly further afield and even boardering on violating the rules about political discussions. I have no problem with the removal, and will try to preserve my usual care in the future.
But he diagram did point out the proper word to describe the feeling when looking at a great work of art, eithe rnatural or man-made (or even a super-elegant Beaver dam or spyderweb): Awe
And one usually has enjoymen with awe, but can have sadness as well.
Certainly Lehigih Gorge gives both awe and enjoyment. And Big Boy climbing Sherman Hill with a long freight.
Awe and sadness: A yard fiilled with steam locomotives heading for scap. A military cemitary.
Now, can you imagine the uproar if there were something called an "amusement tax" on a train ride or bus ride to and from the Gettysburg Battlefield?
Dave,
If that was your bubble diagram of human emotions, I thought it had everyting to do with the topic here which is strongly based on the definition of "amusement." I am amazed if that was too much of a departure of topic.
Did the diagragm feature vintage Nazi aircraft attacking the emotions?
Lithonia Operator Did the diagragm feature vintage Nazi aircraft attacking the emotions?
If only there was a train emoticon, then that would have been ok
This is what I thought Dave was referring to. If it is, it has not been removed from the thread.
daveklepper Careful use of words seems appropriate on this Forum. One gets enjoyment from a delicious carefully-prepared meal, but one hardly gets amusement unless conversation provides such. After much deliberation, I think a semantic chart for this issue might be appropriate, and here is the one I prepared, based only on my 87-years' life experience: I believe once the new bridge is open, the mine runs, the coal trains, will no longer run via Jim Thorp, close-by, but not in the town itself. Is the wine merchant in the town? I
Careful use of words seems appropriate on this Forum. One gets enjoyment from a delicious carefully-prepared meal, but one hardly gets amusement unless conversation provides such.
After much deliberation, I think a semantic chart for this issue might be appropriate, and here is the one I prepared, based only on my 87-years' life experience:
I believe once the new bridge is open, the mine runs, the coal trains, will no longer run via Jim Thorp, close-by, but not in the town itself. Is the wine merchant in the town?
I
Well I for one didn't find Davids diagram offensive in any way, in fact I thought it was a pretty succinct way of proving his point on this topic. Whether anyone agrees with it or not is strictly in the "view of the beholder."
Back to the topic. I wonder if there's an election coming up and the mayor of Jim Thorpe thinks he needs a "scalp" of some kind. Depending on the impact of this the scalp may be his own.
Flintlock76Well I for one didn't find Davids diagram offensive in any way, in fact I thought it was a pretty succinct way of proving his point on this topic. Whether anyone agrees with it or not is strictly in the "view of the beholder."
Ditto.
As to the 600,000 dollars for flaggers, that would be a safety requirement that would be a contract obligation for the governmental employees and/or their contractors working on or near the railroad. It must be done by a railroad employee who would be in communications with the dispatcher and/or the train personel to avoid accidents. Railroads have strict rules over access to their ROW's (With cause) and enforce them.
There was nothing offensive about Dave's diagragm, and as Euclid points out, it is still there. Not sure why Dave thought otherwise.
daveklepperNow, can you imagine the uproar if there were something called an "amusement tax" on a train ride or bus ride to and from the Gettysburg Battlefield?
https://ecode360.com/27357945
Flintlock76 - Yes, the Pennsylvania municipal elections (which occur in the 'off-years' from the federal ones) are this year. I have no idea who in Jim Thorpe is up for election, who is in the midst of their term, or who the competition is.
As to the $600K for flagging: Recently a significant rail-trail bridge was constructed across the Lehigh River at the southern end of Jim Thorpe. As I recall a long and high retaining wall was required for the trail's approach to the bridge on the NS side ("east"). Both the bridge and the wall were very close to the live track - which I'm pretty sure is NS. It may be that the only access for the contractor on that side of the river was over the NS track. On the other side the bridge and trail are close to the RB&N track. So maybe 2 flaggers were needed, 1 for each side. Or maybe RBM&N just had its train run at restricted speed, or some combination.
$600K sounds like a lot for a flagger, but it depends on how many days and how many hours were involved each day, and for which railroad. It was in all liklihood union personnel who were required to do the flagging for the NS track, since it is a 'live' track. So that money would have gone to NS. No idea of the speed limit, but it's not 10 MPH - 30 MPH is a good guess, with very limited visibility due to the curve around Mauch Chunk mountain there ("sleeping bear" in Native American, former name for Jim Thorpe). The 'on-duty' point was likely either Allentown or in the Scranton area, each of which is about 1 hour away by car. Take the base pay plus fringes plus overhead plus mileage plus any overtime [edit] plus travel time [end edit] and other mark-ups, and I'm told it's not uncommon for the cost to be around $1,000 per man-day. I don't know that the bridge and retaining wall took 2 years, but a year at least. I don't know the union status or pay rates of RB&M, but their on-duty point could be Port Clinton, which is also ~1 hour away. Also, most of that trail was paid for by grants - it's part of the D&L trail system, so it may have had mostly federal, PennDOT, and/ or PA DCNR funding, not mostly (or even much) of Jim Thorpe's.
All of which is to say, be careful about the assumptions here as to the $600K.
As other commenters have noted, this sure seems like a personality-conflict driven dispute.
Someone noted that the amusement tax is incurred where the ticket is purchased or the ride starts. I believe that is correct.
It's called the Mansion House Bridge, and is at these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 40.86180 W 75.73741
It's 250 ft. long, the "retention" (retaining) wall is 500 (or 700) ft. long, the project was $4.1 million for the bridge plus $1.2 million for the wall, total $5.3 million, was financed by state grants (and maybe some others?), and did take 2 years to build:
https://wnep.com/2019/08/12/pedestrian-bridge-in-jim-thorpe-finally-opens/
https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/entertainment/2019/08/that-new-bridge-linking-trail-from-cementon-through-jim-thorpe-is-opening-monday.html
https://delawareandlehigh.org/blog/big-bucks-made-for-big-connections-summer-2019-trail-gap-closures/
daveklepper Calling it an "Amusement Tax" is the trivialization. And don't the passengers on the other trains require the same services from the Town? And don't some of the freight shippers and receivers?
Basing your argument on rhetoric is trivialization.
Freight shippers/recievers live in the local area and already pay property taxes to support their town.
For actual passenger trains, half the time people are getting on or off the train at their own town. The other half of the passengers are comming from the towns the locals are now visiting. It's reciprical.
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