York1 Euclid The CEOs of these competition losers cannot admit their failure, so the gin up an excuse that China is cheating and that’s not fair. While global demand for steel dropped, and demand for steel inside China dropped, Chinese steel companies expanded. The expansion was funded by huge infusions of Chinese government money to cover operating losses. This low-priced steel was dumped onto the world market, undercutting North American, South American, and European steel companies, basically driving them out of business.
Euclid The CEOs of these competition losers cannot admit their failure, so the gin up an excuse that China is cheating and that’s not fair.
While global demand for steel dropped, and demand for steel inside China dropped, Chinese steel companies expanded. The expansion was funded by huge infusions of Chinese government money to cover operating losses. This low-priced steel was dumped onto the world market, undercutting North American, South American, and European steel companies, basically driving them out of business.
I hear this a lot. China's government is subsidizing their industries, and that is unfair to us. Navarro characterizes that as a crime by China. Why is it a crime? It is their country and they can publically subsidize their industries. They are a communist country. Who says they must separate government from industry? It is another Navarro red herring. If anybody wants to give steel away, who's to stop them? The whole goal of free market economics is to undercut your competition.
Our government has been subsidizing Boeing commercial airliner division for years through DOD contracts, but our hawkish members apparently never heard of Ike's warning about the MIC.
EuclidChina's government is subsidizing their industries, and that is unfair to us...Why is it a crime? It is their country and they can publically subsidize their industries.
EuclidAnd unless China repents, Navarro will destroy them. With this moral crusading lunatic running our trade policy, these competition losers should be celebrating that such an extreme policy is coming to their rescue. Instead they beg for more help from government.
I don't quite understand. (There's a lot I don't understand. Just ask my wife.)
On the one hand, it's completely understandable. "It is their country..."
On the other hand, you seem upset that Navarro advocates helping our country. It's our country, we can impose tariffs if we want.
York1 John
charlie hebdo Our government has been subsidizing Boeing commercial airliner division for years through DOD contracts, but our hawkish members apparently never heard of Ike's warning about the MIC.
I completely agree. Our government has subsidized a lot of things, from food to big electric windmills. Our government has its hand in too many things. Why?
Because we have senators and congressmen delivering the bacon to just about every group in the country.
York1On the other hand, you seem upset that Navarro advocates helping our country. It's our country, we can impose tariffs if we want.
Well, Navarro is way, way out of the mainstream...and wrong. Sure, we can have tariffs, no matter how much they hurt us now and slow us down in the long run.
The problem with China is the unholy aliance between the gov't and their industry - which allows all sorts of games to be played. The way to deal with this is to form alliances and apply some group pressure. The TPP would have been a good start.
As for railroad stuff? Suppliers need stop whining and deal with things as they are. We already have "buy American" provisions in transit and commuter rail vehicle procurement, which has lead to all sorts plants popping up and vaporizing and raised the costs for transit agencies. Maybe it's time to recognize the rail supply industry is global, like everything else.
Looking for a scapegoat? I'd suggest Malcolm McLean.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
York1 Euclid China's government is subsidizing their industries, and that is unfair to us...Why is it a crime? It is their country and they can publically subsidize their industries. Euclid And unless China repents, Navarro will destroy them. With this moral crusading lunatic running our trade policy, these competition losers should be celebrating that such an extreme policy is coming to their rescue. Instead they beg for more help from government. I don't quite understand. (There's a lot I don't understand. Just ask my wife.) On the one hand, it's completely understandable. "It is their country..." On the other hand, you seem upset that Navarro advocates helping our country. It's our country, we can impose tariffs if we want.
Euclid China's government is subsidizing their industries, and that is unfair to us...Why is it a crime? It is their country and they can publically subsidize their industries.
Euclid And unless China repents, Navarro will destroy them. With this moral crusading lunatic running our trade policy, these competition losers should be celebrating that such an extreme policy is coming to their rescue. Instead they beg for more help from government.
Yes that is true. Navarro and the Adminstration are trying to help our country, and there is nothing wrong with that principle. However, Navarro considers it a crime when China does it, and that is part of his premise of taking action against China.
But aside from that: What bothers me is that I don't believe the result that Navarro promises as benefit to this country will come true. In fact, I expect his tariff policy will cause great damage to the country even though it will damage China too. This is the key point about Navarro, that is that he insists that our tariffs on imports from China will not cost us a dime. He says we will only reep billions of dollars of new revenue from China paying for the tariffs that we have imposed on our imports. In my humble opinion, this theory is way off into tinfoil hat territory. Navarro has been vigorously challenged on his claim, but he fiercely fights back with arguments that are impossible to analize. Navarro has spent his whole career cultivating this idea that life would be perfect if it were not for all the sins that China commits.
The fact is that several players have the option of picking up the tab for a portion of the tariffs, and China is one of them. Others are the U.S. import companies, U.S. distributors, U.S. retailers, and U.S. consumer. For each of these potential payers, the tariff represents a tax that makes the product more expensive and reduces the demand for it. Ultimately its consumption will slow down and that will hurt China.
But lunacy is the claim that China will pay 100% of the tariffs. Typicaly most of it is passed on to the consumers, and they are made poorer as a result. This reduction in consumer wealth manifests as a U.S. economic recession.
But aside from all of that: China will also retaliate against us by imposing tariffs on goods we export to them, like soybeans. It becomes a trade war, and it is a conflict just like a shooting war, in that it is an all-out conflict until one side or the other is destroyed or gives up. When it all done, both sides find that it has cost them dearly, and both are set way back from where they would have been if the original trade imbalance had been just left in place and ignored. Both sides lose ground from where they started. That is why economic wisdom always advises against tariffs.
In our case, we have the largest #1 superpower locked into a very extreme trade war with the one top rival world manufacturing country. I think there will be major fallout from this that could tip the entire world economy into severe depression to a degree that has never been experiended before. It is not just the direct cost of tariffs that will slow down the economies. It is also the loss of business investor confidence due to the uncertainty of how this all plays out.
Can anyone tell us who said the following?:
"And I will not stand by when our competitors don't play by the rules. We've brought trade cases against China at nearly twice the rate as the last administration - and it's made a difference. Over a thousand Americans are working today because we stopped a surge in Chinese tires. But we need to do more. It's not right when another country lets our movies, music, and software be pirated. It's not fair when foreign manufacturers have a leg up on ours only because they're heavily subsidized."
Trump? No.
Navarro? No.
President Barack Obama, 1/24/2012 Yes.
I guess you were complaining about President Obama's high tariffs on Chinese tires. Did you also complain when President Obama put tariffs (as high as 118%) on steel imported from eight different countries in 2014? How about President Obama's 31% tariff on Chinese solar panels in 2012?
By the way, those were before Navarro.
The last trade war we entered culminated in the Smoot-Hawley tariffs. And that led to an economic catastrophe of great enormity. But I guess you forgot about that as well.
York1Can anyone tell us who said the following?:
If these present tariffs pass quietly into the night with no noticeable effect and become just a fogotten chapter, that would be fine. I am certainly not relying on them to solve a problem. But I suspect that what we are doing now with tariffs is vastly greater than what Obama was doing with the tariffs you mention. Navarro says the goal of these tariffs is to bring all those lost jobs back from China and put Americans back to work with good wages. I expect these tariffs to have a massive negative effect on our economy. We shall soon find out.
Euclid York1 Can anyone tell us who said the following?: I was not focused at all on that move by Obama. We got through it with no obvious effect, so it was not a problem. It might have saved a lot of lives being lost to poorly made tires. Don't get me wrong. I would have preferred that the outsourcing to China trend never happened. I am not one who buys only the cheapest price. I think that is usually a bad bargain. I hate the lousy quality of Chinese products. So if all Chinese imports were banned tomorrow, I would rejoice. If these present tariffs pass quietly into the night with no noticeable effect and become just a fogotten chapter, that would be fine. I am certainly not relying on them to solve a problem. But I suspect that what we are doing now with tariffs is vastly greater than what Obama was doing with the tariffs you mention. Navarro says the goal of these tariffs is to bring all those lost jobs back from China and put Americans back to work with good wages. I expect these tariffs to have a massive negative effect on our economy. We shall soon find out.
York1 Can anyone tell us who said the following?:
I was not focused at all on that move by Obama. We got through it with no obvious effect, so it was not a problem. It might have saved a lot of lives being lost to poorly made tires. Don't get me wrong. I would have preferred that the outsourcing to China trend never happened. I am not one who buys only the cheapest price. I think that is usually a bad bargain. I hate the lousy quality of Chinese products. So if all Chinese imports were banned tomorrow, I would rejoice.
I guess you better throw out your Apple products.
York1 Can anyone tell us who said the following?: "And I will not stand by when our competitors don't play by the rules. We've brought trade cases against China at nearly twice the rate as the last administration - and it's made a difference. Over a thousand Americans are working today because we stopped a surge in Chinese tires. But we need to do more. It's not right when another country lets our movies, music, and software be pirated. It's not fair when foreign manufacturers have a leg up on ours only because they're heavily subsidized." Trump? No. Navarro? No. President Barack Obama, 1/24/2012 Yes. I guess you were complaining about President Obama's high tariffs on Chinese tires. Did you also complain when President Obama put tariffs (as high as 118%) on steel imported from eight different countries in 2014? How about President Obama's 31% tariff on Chinese solar panels in 2012? By the way, those were before Navarro.
Um. Still bad. https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/03/news/economy/obama-china-tire-tariff/index.html
If someone is dumping, go the WTO for remediation. It has worked before.
nhrand Juniata Man I haven’t read the TRAINS article yet but; I suspect economics is why you are seeing more and more TTX and GATX boxcars in trains now. In some NS trains; I’m also seeing a respectable number of short line reporting marks. Someone appears to have figured out how to make money soliciting boxcar traffic. The TRAINS article reports that box car usage can be profitable but warns against the sharp decline of existing box cars and the probability that as a very large amount continue to be retired because of age there will be no finacial incentive to replace them. Earnings are positive but low relative to cost of replacement.
Juniata Man I haven’t read the TRAINS article yet but; I suspect economics is why you are seeing more and more TTX and GATX boxcars in trains now. In some NS trains; I’m also seeing a respectable number of short line reporting marks. Someone appears to have figured out how to make money soliciting boxcar traffic.
I haven’t read the TRAINS article yet but; I suspect economics is why you are seeing more and more TTX and GATX boxcars in trains now. In some NS trains; I’m also seeing a respectable number of short line reporting marks. Someone appears to have figured out how to make money soliciting boxcar traffic.
The TRAINS article reports that box car usage can be profitable but warns against the sharp decline of existing box cars and the probability that as a very large amount continue to be retired because of age there will be no finacial incentive to replace them. Earnings are positive but low relative to cost of replacement.
TTX and Canadian National are still buying new boxcars. CN apparently did their most recent purchase through a leasing company.
Boxcars are still in high demand for pulp and paper products. While newsprint and finished white paper are in decline there is still big demand for cardboard, packaging and other consumer products made from wood pulp. Diapers are a good example.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
And as more places eliminate hydrocarbon-based packaging, the wood pulp demand will grow.
jeffhergert The Chinese remembered what the Russians forgot about what Lenin said. "The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them." Jeff
The Chinese remembered what the Russians forgot about what Lenin said. "The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."
Jeff
When Nixon restored relations with Mao in the early 70's, China was essentially a third world country. When a friend of mine was involved in the sale of high precision tooling to China 20 or so years ago, the temperature/humidity sensitive machinery was installed in a factory that had a dirt floor. Today, China has markedly expanded their military, told it to be battle-ready, claimed international waters as theirs, is pushing influence worldwide, shooting for the Moon. Xi took power in 2012, eliminated term limits, and is now "president for life". It's "Xi Jinping Thought" (on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era) time.
Two socialist regimes, the Nazi's and the Soviet's, started WWII in Europe by together attacking Poland. As leftist's do, the Nazi's then turned on the Soviets.
When the Soviet's lost the Cold War, we didn't learn our lesson. Now the hard left here, little different than the French revolutionaries of old, has taken over the Dems. Won't be surpised if Pelosi, like Robespierre, ends up getting guillotined (figuratively).
The withdrawal pangs will be painful, but we have to be willing to pay for our foolishness in becoming addicted to the China low-price narcotic while we still can.
I'm glad we finally have someone who is standing up, and demanding win-win deals. The freight car CEO's need to realize they have to lead and serve their customers better than their competition. No time for crying.
Believe it or don't.
Gramp jeffhergert The Chinese remembered what the Russians forgot about what Lenin said. "The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them." Jeff When Nixon restored relations with Mao in the early 70's, China was essentially a third world country. When a friend of mine was involved in the sale of high precision tooling to China 20 or so years ago, the temperature/humidity sensitive machinery was installed in a factory that had a dirt floor. Today, China has markedly expanded their military, told it to be battle-ready, claimed international waters as theirs, is pushing influence worldwide, shooting for the Moon. Xi took power in 2012, eliminated term limits, and is now "president for life". It's "Xi Jinping Thought" (on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era) time. Two socialist regimes, the Nazi's and the Soviet's, started WWII in Europe by together attacking Poland. As leftist's do, the Nazi's then turned on the Soviets. When the Soviet's lost the Cold War, we didn't learn our lesson. Now the hard left here, little different than the French revolutionaries of old, has taken over the Dems. Won't be surpised if Pelosi, like Robespierre, ends up getting guillotined (figuratively). The withdrawal pangs will be painful, but we have to be willing to pay for our foolishness in becoming addicted to the China low-price narcotic while we still can. I'm glad we finally have someone who is standing up, and demanding win-win deals. The freight car CEO's need to realize they have to lead and serve their customers better than their competition. No time for crying. Believe it or don't.
You had me until you called the Nazis "leftist's".
Going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure that Hitler & company were far-right Fascists, while they may have called themselves "National Socialists" their actions do not fit the definition of "Socialism".
It should be noted here that Pelosi was actively preaching against impeachment until Trump solicited the help of a foreign country (ally or not) in undermining one of his political opponents, and then released the transcript proving he did it while claiming (as usual) that he did nothing wrong. In the face of such evidence they House would be negligent if the did not start a inquiry.
As has been discussed on here before, trade wars and tariffs only end up hurting the consumer who pays for the products in the end.
Go right ahead and believe that the repeatedly bankrupt self-titled billionare has the intrests of the little guy at heart. After all it's a free country, and I don't live in the U.S. (thank goodness). But so far he's only taken actions that mainly serve to benefit the rich, ie himself.
And before you bash Socialism too hard, maybe take a look at its Nordic Democratic variant, and see how the standards of living in the Scandanavian countries compare to ours.
They even have well-run electrified passenger rail systems that everyone uses!
SD70Dudeand I don't live in the U.S. (thank goodness).
While that is how you feel, this is probably not the proper place to express that opinion. This forum is populated mainly by U.S. and Canadian posters, and we can get along without the comment.
York1 SD70Dude and I don't live in the U.S. (thank goodness). While that is how you feel, this is probably not the proper place to express that opinion. This forum is populated mainly by U.S. and Canadian posters, and we can get along without the comment.
SD70Dude and I don't live in the U.S. (thank goodness).
I do live in Canada, which is quite obvious unless you don't know where Alberta is, so I don't really see the point of your comment.
Unfortunately we are all affected by what happens on the south side of our shared border.
Gee, yes I do know where Alberta is. Even more unbelievably, I've been there. It's a great place.
And you really don't see anything wrong with your statement?
Nope, it's an opinion, not a fact. That I'm not trying to hide. Unlike some of the other political stuff posted on here.
I've visited several places in the U.S, and I had a good time. But I still wouldn't want to live there. The politics and news cycles (fake or otherwise) are just a bit too crazy for my liking.
But they do make for some great entertainment from a distance [popcorn emoji]
Oh, OK. An opinion. I guess that changes everything.
I'll agree about entertainment, even when it concerns your blackface-makeup Prime Minister trying to distance himself from the SNC-Lavalin mess.
Sigh. Yeah, not one of our proudest moments. I'm honestly surprised that story seems to have died down fairly quickly, and hasn't become a bigger deal.
But I can honestly say that I did not vote for his party, and our federal election campaign will be over in a month. You guys still have over a year to go!
You will probably recall that Trudeau also made a fool of himself playing dress-up on his official visit to India in 2018.
For those who haven't followed this closely, the SNC-Lavalin affair really started almost 10 years ago when the company got caught paying bribes to Libyan officials in exchange for contracts over there. Not exactly unusual for a company to pay bribes in that part of the world, but Lavalin was bad enough at it that they got caught. I think some of the contracts they were bidding for had to do with the construction of a Libyan rail system (to keep this rail-related somehow). Everything seemed to have died down within a couple years after the initial revelations, and to be honest I had forgotten that there was still a criminal case going on against Lavalin.
Where Trudeau overstepped his bounds this year was when he pressured our now former Attorney General to come to an agreement to avoid prosecution of Lavalin. When she refused and went public he had her removed from that position and ultimately expelled from the Liberal party.
A guilty verdict would exclude Lavalin from bidding on a number of lucrative Canadian goverment contracts. The company is based in Montreal, and pandering to Quebec is a long-held tradition in Canadian federal politics.
The only difference between Fascism to Socialism is in the latter the government owns everything the former they still allow private companies to exist. However both have rigid controls over the production of goods and services price controls and the economy. Failures to obey the government in either system are grounds for severe punishment. Germany had concentration camps way before the outbreak off WW2. Instead of being filled with members of a certain faith they were filled with what were considered the other undesriables in Germany. People that opposed the government were the primary residents at first. My husband's family that hadn't immigrated to the USA after WW1 were such people. He's one of the last few of his dad's side alive. Why his entire family in Europe was destroyed by the German government for opposing Hitler's government when they took over what was then Cezchslovicka.
BaltACD All countries are using every form of industrial espinogue to secure the secrets from the competition - USA, Japan, Germany, China and any other country that is trying to make products.
All countries are using every form of industrial espinogue to secure the secrets from the competition - USA, Japan, Germany, China and any other country that is trying to make products.
The US does not conduct industrial espionage. The intelligence community is expressly prohibited from doing so.
Psychot BaltACD All countries are using every form of industrial espinogue to secure the secrets from the competition - USA, Japan, Germany, China and any other country that is trying to make products. The US does not conduct industrial espionage. The intelligence community is expressly prohibited from doing so.
That's what they want you to think!
Shadow the Cats owner The only difference between Fascism to Socialism is in the latter the government owns everything the former they still allow private companies to exist. However both have rigid controls over the production of goods and services price controls and the economy. Failures to obey the government in either system are grounds for severe punishment. Germany had concentration camps way before the outbreak off WW2. Instead of being filled with members of a certain faith they were filled with what were considered the other undesriables in Germany. People that opposed the government were the primary residents at first. My husband's family that hadn't immigrated to the USA after WW1 were such people. He's one of the last few of his dad's side alive. Why his entire family in Europe was destroyed by the German government for opposing Hitler's government when they took over what was then Cezchslovicka.
I think you need an in-depth course in 20th C. European history.
SD70Dude,
I should have said "radicals".
Also, the US has been moving to the left, the Repubs. moving along with it. I think largely Trump was elected because of this shift. The average Joe (I include myself) was left without a country so to speak. Pelosi has been forced farther left, farther than she actually is. That's the why of my Robespierre comment. Nobody is safe in this environment. The radicals disavow history.
I think the dems have bloodlust for getting Trump out of office. Nothing else matters. Everything they have tried has been manufactured, and gone down in flames. Impeachment is the last ditch effort, even to the point of losing control of the House next year. It's necessary to see past the media, who are largely complicit, to get at the truth. I've always tried to see or read what the person in question has actually said or written if I can. If you read the transcript, Trump was doing his constitutional duty as President in his inquiries.
Again, just my thoughts.
You rightists like to peddle your opinions (some so ill-informed factually as to be hilarious) on here without restrainst but if anyone to the left of Mussolini challenges it, one of them will cry foul, i.e., report to the moderators that folks are being political. It's predictable and tiresome.
charlie hebdo Shadow the Cats owner The only difference between Fascism to Socialism is in the latter the government owns everything the former they still allow private companies to exist. However both have rigid controls over the production of goods and services price controls and the economy. Failures to obey the government in either system are grounds for severe punishment. Germany had concentration camps way before the outbreak off WW2. Instead of being filled with members of a certain faith they were filled with what were considered the other undesriables in Germany. People that opposed the government were the primary residents at first. My husband's family that hadn't immigrated to the USA after WW1 were such people. He's one of the last few of his dad's side alive. Why his entire family in Europe was destroyed by the German government for opposing Hitler's government when they took over what was then Cezchslovicka. I think you need an in-depth course in 20th C. European history.
Sounds to me her husband's European relatives already got one, in spades.
Be kind.
Sorry, but her post has so much inaccuracy, it needs to be pointed out. She should stick to telling us about trucks.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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