https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_drARTH_Uo
Very professional!
Was the guy with the white pick-up and trailer trying to park in a no-parking zone? Not too professional on his part.
Looks like he was trying to pull over for the train.
Seems like that road would be better if it were made 1-way (At least for the 2 blocks of street running).
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Flintlock76Very professional! Was the guy with the white pick-up and trailer trying to park in a no-parking zone? Not too professional on his part.
I don't think he was trying to park - he made the trun, saw the train and 'thought' he could squeeze his truck and trailer into the No Parking zone for the train to pass. Bad Idea.
I don't know if the street running is at some 'authorized speed' or if the area is to be operated at Restricted Speed?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Notice the "shoving move" back across the intersection and back into the street it came out of without protection!
Wasn't until later that I saw the intersection was protected by gates, at least on the far side.
- PDN.
Paul_D_North_JrNotice the "shoving move" back across the intersection and back into the street it came out of without protection! Wasn't until later that I saw the intersection was protected by gates, at least on the far side. - PDN.
Don't believe Kentucky highway rules require anyone to protect the point on a shove.
BaltACD I don't know if the street running is at some 'authorized speed' or if the area is to be operated at Restricted Speed?
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
chatanuga BaltACD I don't know if the street running is at some 'authorized speed' or if the area is to be operated at Restricted Speed? In La Grange, as trains come into town from either direction, they're only moving about 10 MPH. Once the head end of the train is exiting the street running and the "no horn" crossings, the trains generally accelerate back to normal track speed. Kevin
There is a difference between 10 MPH and Restricted Speed. With 10 MPH trains ARE NOT required to stop within 1/2 the range of vision. The maximum speed authorized by CSX Restricted Speed is 15 MPH being able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision.
Found a Louisville Divison ETT - at South Lagrange the restriction is 10 MPH until the engine blocks the street - then it can accelerate to 20 MPH. On either side of South Lagrange the track speed is 40 MPH.
One thing I was concerned about when the train stopped and the gates came up was if the Conductor would have to flag the road crossing. Was glad to see that when the train started moving again that the gates then descended again.
What was the driver supposed to do? He enters the intersection with the right of way, and makes a right turn onto a street that then become too narrow for his vehicle due to the approach of a train. Wisely, he chose not to attempt backing up the trailer blind into the busy cross street.
I would say there is always the potential for vehicles being trapped there due to the vehicle lane not being wide enough without fouling the track. So, obiously trains must be expected to be able to stop short of any vehicles.
I have never paid attention so this may be more common than I realize. I guess I have never seen a situation like this.
Are there a lot of places that have tracks running on streets like this? (Not talking about a streetcars, etc.)
York1 John
Euclid So, obiously trains must be expected to be able to stop short of any vehicles.
Then they would be required restricted speed. Are they here?
zugmann Euclid So, obiously trains must be expected to be able to stop short of any vehicles. Then they would be required restricted speed. Are they here?
ETT does not require Restricted Speed.
It would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location. It would require being able to stop within a couple hundred feet in order to be reasonable.
It is as if the whole street there is one giant grade crossing.
EuclidIt would require something more restrictive than restricted speed.
Yeah, that doesn't exist. And there are times when running restricted speed you have to stop within a few feet. You adjust speed accordingly. After all (let's all say it together): RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!
Euclid zugmann Euclid So, obiously trains must be expected to be able to stop short of any vehicles. Then they would be required restricted speed. Are they here? It would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location. It would require being able to stop within a couple hundred feet in order to be reasonable. It is as if the whole street there is one giant grade crossing.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding Like double-secret restricted speed? Mischief
I mean, I guess you could go backwards?
zugmann Euclid It would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Yeah, that doesn't exist. And there are times when running restricted speed you have to stop within a few feet. You adjust speed accordingly. After all (let's all say it together): RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!
Euclid It would require something more restrictive than restricted speed.
What I was thinking was something more restrictive than the maximum speed allowed under restricted speed. But if the "method of operation" element of restrictive speed would address the short range fouling likely to occur, then restrictive speed would be adequate. But in any case, we are told that restricted speed is not in effect at that location.
In the case of the street running in the video, the half sight distance would be way too long. What good is being able to stop within half the site distance (say 1500 feet) for abrupt fouling that is likely to occur in a range of 1-500 feet? Of course, you can't stop within 1 foot, but 200 feet seems reasonable. Under 200 feet, vehicle drivers must be instructed to yield to trains. I wonder if there are any signs telling drivers what to do there.
I agree that restricted speed is not a speed, but a method of operation. But the method of operation needs to be targeted at the most likely form of obstruction, and the 15 mph limit of restricted speed is too high for stopping for that most likely form of obstruction.
The engineer in this video used a perfect method of operation.
deleted
Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision.
Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed."
The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision. Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed." The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH.
There is a maximum for restricted speed, either 15 or 20 mph depending on rule book. However, conditions may require that 5 mph. Maybe even less or not moving at all.
For that location, maybe we can take a page out of history and require a man on horse back to precede the movement through the area of street running.
Jeff
I understand that it is not just a speed limit although it includes a maximum speed limit. Other than just that maximum speed limit, it requires being able to stop within half the range of vision.
So I go back to what I said above which was this:
“It [the road running in the video] would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location.”
I am referring to the entire procedure of “restricted speed” and not just the maximum speed limit. The reason that the procedure of restricted speed is not restrictive enough is that, for this street running, the method of operation has to be a requirement to be able to stop in considerably less distance than half the range of vision.
The reason is that there are routinely potential close range incursions into the train foul zone in this oddball street/railroad layout. I would say the problem could be addressed with a new version of restricted speed that requires being able to stop in 1/10th the range of vision.
Or just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe.
Euclid tree68 Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision. Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed." The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH. I understand that it is not just a speed limit although it includes a maximum speed limit. Other than just that maximum speed limit, it requires being able to stop within half the range of vision. So I go back to what I said above which was this: “It [the road running in the video] would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location.” I am referring to the entire procedure of “restricted speed” and not just the maximum speed limit. The reason that the procedure of restricted speed is not restrictive enough is that, for this street running, the method of operation has to be a requirement to be able to stop in considerably less distance than half the range of vision. The reason is that there are routinely potential close range incursions into the train foul zone in this oddball street/railroad layout. I would say the problem could be addressed with a new version of restricted speed that requires being able to stop in 1/10th the range of vision. Or just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe.
EuclidOr just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe.
I'd bet that every railroader has run in dense fog so thick that you cannot see beyond the nose of the locomotive, especially at night. In those cases, what restricted speed would be safe? Sometimes the Conductor has to walk ahead, as long as he is radio equipped; and even then, a lit fusee might be necessary to ascertain that he hasn't fallen.
Maybe this will help Bucky.
Because of the location of the Denver station with respect to the BNSF anf UP tracks, the California Zephyr, both eastbound and westbound, is backed in to the station. The conductor stands at the rear and tells the engineer what his own range of vision is, continually saying that his range of vision is so many carlengths--and the engineer makes certain that the speed is such that he can stop the train in one-half of the distance that the conductor tells him; the range varies as the train backs around the wye.
The same applies in Salt Lake City when it is necessary to detour across Wyoming--eastbound, the train backs out of the station, and westbound, the train backs in to the station (I have obseved the inbound movement here, but I already been in my berth when we left on my way east.).
Johnny
Murphy Siding Euclid tree68 Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision. Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed." The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH. I understand that it is not just a speed limit although it includes a maximum speed limit. Other than just that maximum speed limit, it requires being able to stop within half the range of vision. So I go back to what I said above which was this: “It [the road running in the video] would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location.” I am referring to the entire procedure of “restricted speed” and not just the maximum speed limit. The reason that the procedure of restricted speed is not restrictive enough is that, for this street running, the method of operation has to be a requirement to be able to stop in considerably less distance than half the range of vision. The reason is that there are routinely potential close range incursions into the train foul zone in this oddball street/railroad layout. I would say the problem could be addressed with a new version of restricted speed that requires being able to stop in 1/10th the range of vision. Or just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe. I think zugmann explained it the best up a half a dozen posts:RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!In addition, I think this falls into the category of "this ain't the first rodeo we've been to". Engineers qualify for their territory and obviously this one has dealt with this section of track before and knows what to expect and how to deal with it.
I think zugmann explained it the best up a half a dozen posts:RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!In addition, I think this falls into the category of "this ain't the first rodeo we've been to". Engineers qualify for their territory and obviously this one has dealt with this section of track before and knows what to expect and how to deal with it.
This method is capped with a maxium speed limit that cannot be exceeded even if range of vision and stopping ability would allow it.
So restricted speed is indeed a speed limit, but not just one speed limit. It partly a varying maxium speed limit set by a formula, and partly a maximum speed cap overriding the formula.
My point is that this restricted speed rule does not address the dangers of running though that town. It would probably top right out at 20 mph unless it was foggy. If there was a reason to stop a train moving 20 mph, it would probably run completely through that area before it stopped. I would say that they need an absolute speed limit of 10 mph through there. The engineer of the train in the video was probably under 10 mph upon entering that area.
In that video the engineer was familiar with the territory and was moving at a crawl, as I'm sure any engineer on this run would do. He was exercising good judgement running through town. Is there a need to dictate procedures for every single situation?
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
According to Balt, there is no restriced speed imposed at LaGrange. According to information posted at Train Orders, there is a fixed speed limit of 10 mph for trains passing through that area.
Euclid According to Balt, there is no restriced speed imposed at LaGrange. According to information posted at Train Orders, there is a fixed speed limit of 10 mph for trains passing through that area.
Exactly.
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