Electroliner 1935 BaltACD Notice that after the train stopped - the gates raised and only lowered again after the train had started moving. I have no idea what kind of detector circuits are being utilized for this particular crossing protection. After the train had stopped, I fully expected the Conductor to have to proceed to the crossing so the train could 'Flag the Crossing'. Detector circuits are better than I had anticipated. I suspect that CSX has the newer type of audiotone track overlay circuits that act like a radar gun and determine distance, direction and speed of the track shunting object (train). When the speed sensed goes to zero, it then starts a timer and after a delay, aborts the gate operation but as soon as it detects motion toward the crossing, it reactivates the protection. This type of protection is so much better that older track circuits. It does not require all the insulated rail joints and works on welded rail.
BaltACD Notice that after the train stopped - the gates raised and only lowered again after the train had started moving. I have no idea what kind of detector circuits are being utilized for this particular crossing protection. After the train had stopped, I fully expected the Conductor to have to proceed to the crossing so the train could 'Flag the Crossing'. Detector circuits are better than I had anticipated.
I suspect that CSX has the newer type of audiotone track overlay circuits that act like a radar gun and determine distance, direction and speed of the track shunting object (train). When the speed sensed goes to zero, it then starts a timer and after a delay, aborts the gate operation but as soon as it detects motion toward the crossing, it reactivates the protection. This type of protection is so much better that older track circuits. It does not require all the insulated rail joints and works on welded rail.
On CN we know the newer type as "smart crossings".
The older type with fixed bonds require stopping before the crossing circuit (marked by signs) to avoid unnecessary operation of the warning devices if a train is not proceeding right away. Some of these crossings have manually operated buttons/switches to shut off the warning devices once a train has pulled up to the crossing and stopped.
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-an Articulate Malcontent
Electroliner 1935I suspect that CSX has the newer type of audiotone track overlay circuits that act like a radar gun and determine distance, direction and speed of the track shunting object (train). When the speed sensed goes to zero, it then starts a timer and after a delay, aborts the gate operation but as soon as it detects motion toward the crossing, it reactivates the protection. This type of protection is so much better that older track circuits. It does not require all the insulated rail joints and works on welded rail.
I know them as "predictive." One problem with them, though, is that the rail needs to be pretty well polished - not a good thing for a line that only gets one or two movements a week, or less.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACDNotice that after the train stopped - the gates raised and only lowered again after the train had started moving. I have no idea what kind of detector circuits are being utilized for this particular crossing protection. After the train had stopped, I fully expected the Conductor to have to proceed to the crossing so the train could 'Flag the Crossing'. Detector circuits are better than I had anticipated.
Video from the same camera in La Grange showing a car sitting too close to the tracks and getting hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=603kPUzv36M
York1 John
Actually, LaGrange and CSX seem to have a completely peaceful coexistence, which is promoted by the town as a sort of charming attraction because it is so unique. Trains appear to move through at about 5 mph prepared to stop short of any obstruction if possible.
https://www.lagrangemainstreet.org/
BaltACDAfter the train had stopped, I fully expected the Conductor to have to proceed to the crossing so the train could 'Flag the Crossing'. Detector circuits are better than I had anticipated.
Is it possible the engineer or conductor could control the crossing signals from the locomotive cab?
I have no train experience and know absolutely nothing about how this all works.
AjsikGiven the unique arrangement of the tracks, would it make sense to have the crossing gates activate much sooner than is typical? When the truck enters the intersection, the train is already in view. With an earlier activation, the truck would've been safely stopped behind the gates.
Notice that after the train stopped - the gates raised and only lowered again after the train had started moving. I have no idea what kind of detector circuits are being utilized for this particular crossing protection. After the train had stopped, I fully expected the Conductor to have to proceed to the crossing so the train could 'Flag the Crossing'. Detector circuits are better than I had anticipated.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
AjsikGiven the unique arrangement of the tracks, would it make sense to have the crossing gates activate much sooner than is typical?
Do that and you'll rapidly develop a screaming group of citizens held up for an extended period every time a train comes near. Citizens increasingly likely to 'run the gates' or start crossing when they 'don't see the train'. All this is more counterproductive than safe.
That is not to say that some other form of warning could not be provided earlier than crossing-gate activation, to alert people in town or approaching the crossing that something's coming. I first saw this used at the Pathmark on River Edge Road in Bergenfield, NJ, which was immediately adjacent to a control point on the West Shore (just before it becomes grade-separated going southbound) -- this was several gumball-style red flashers mounted high up on some of the light posts. These would reliably give something like 5 minutes' notice that a train was expected. Presumably these were triggered by a longer, perhaps momentary-contact track circuit.
One response prompted by the incident pictured would be simply to forbid right turns by 'combinations' at that particular corner when such a light came on. Others will suggest themselves. This keeps the formal 'safety' functions of four-quadrant gates reserved for the actual time the train will be passing over the 'collision zone' in the crossing.
Given the unique arrangement of the tracks, would it make sense to have the crossing gates activate much sooner than is typical? When the truck enters the intersection, the train is already in view. With an earlier activation, the truck would've been safely stopped behind the gates.
So, did the engineer get discplined for delaying trains?
Jeff
Shadow the Cats owner Bucky just because the speed limit for someplace is say 65 MPH my drivers are not running that speed there based upon traffic and road conditions say in winter or in a thunderstorm. Heck around here there are times when 55 MPH on the highway is to damn fast during the winter going to work from my house and I drive slower than the speed limit to get there. Why I would rather arrive a couple minutes later and in one piece than have my family get that phone call that due my STUPIDITY that I spread myself all over the freaking highway when I spun out and wrapped my car around a telephone pole. The engineer in the video knew what the conditons were was running his train in respect of the rules of the railroad and was also being respectful of the people that he was interacting with. Trust me he knew what the HELL he was doing and had more training on running that spot of track than more people that run down the highway ever get.
Bucky just because the speed limit for someplace is say 65 MPH my drivers are not running that speed there based upon traffic and road conditions say in winter or in a thunderstorm. Heck around here there are times when 55 MPH on the highway is to damn fast during the winter going to work from my house and I drive slower than the speed limit to get there. Why I would rather arrive a couple minutes later and in one piece than have my family get that phone call that due my STUPIDITY that I spread myself all over the freaking highway when I spun out and wrapped my car around a telephone pole. The engineer in the video knew what the conditons were was running his train in respect of the rules of the railroad and was also being respectful of the people that he was interacting with. Trust me he knew what the HELL he was doing and had more training on running that spot of track than more people that run down the highway ever get.
Hey I never criticized the engineer. If you look at page 1, you will see that I said, “The engineer in this video used a perfect method of operation.”
The speed limit is 10 mph. The engineer looked like he was approaching about that fast, and then he slowed down further as he got closer.
I also defended the truck driver because he was purely a victim of a bone headed traffic control design. What was he supposed to do? Other websites have the endless parade of the usual suspects piling on the truck driver for being a moron or idiot. You know the drill.
The oddball sharing of the right of way between vehicles and trains goes back to the beginning of the town. Apparently the railroad was there first. You would think that they could have worked out a plan. I would speculate that there are a lot of train/vehicle collisions there, but none are very serious. But I’ll bet CSX ends up paying claims. The real risk is pedestrians getting run over by drivers who are panicked by believing they are trapped with a train approaching.
Murphy Siding Euclid According to Balt, there is no restriced speed imposed at LaGrange. According to information posted at Train Orders, there is a fixed speed limit of 10 mph for trains passing through that area. A speed limit would be the maximum speed allowed. That doesn't mean they have to go the speed limit. A qualified, experienced engineer would proceed at a speed that he/she feels is safe, given the knowledge of the territory.
Euclid According to Balt, there is no restriced speed imposed at LaGrange. According to information posted at Train Orders, there is a fixed speed limit of 10 mph for trains passing through that area.
According to Balt, there is no restriced speed imposed at LaGrange. According to information posted at Train Orders, there is a fixed speed limit of 10 mph for trains passing through that area.
A speed limit would be the maximum speed allowed. That doesn't mean they have to go the speed limit. A qualified, experienced engineer would proceed at a speed that he/she feels is safe, given the knowledge of the territory.
I am not sure what the dispute is. The speed limit is 10 mph. I said earlier that restricted speed was not suitable. That is true. I also said it needed to be slower such as 10 mph. As it turns out, it is 10 mph. Nobody ever said that an engineer has to go the speed limit if he feels there is a reason to go slower. If the speed limit were 20 mph, I would not assume that every qualifed and experienced engineer would go 10 mph just because it seems safer.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Exactly.
In that video the engineer was familiar with the territory and was moving at a crawl, as I'm sure any engineer on this run would do. He was exercising good judgement running through town. Is there a need to dictate procedures for every single situation?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Murphy Siding Euclid tree68 Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision. Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed." The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH. I understand that it is not just a speed limit although it includes a maximum speed limit. Other than just that maximum speed limit, it requires being able to stop within half the range of vision. So I go back to what I said above which was this: “It [the road running in the video] would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location.” I am referring to the entire procedure of “restricted speed” and not just the maximum speed limit. The reason that the procedure of restricted speed is not restrictive enough is that, for this street running, the method of operation has to be a requirement to be able to stop in considerably less distance than half the range of vision. The reason is that there are routinely potential close range incursions into the train foul zone in this oddball street/railroad layout. I would say the problem could be addressed with a new version of restricted speed that requires being able to stop in 1/10th the range of vision. Or just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe. I think zugmann explained it the best up a half a dozen posts:RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!In addition, I think this falls into the category of "this ain't the first rodeo we've been to". Engineers qualify for their territory and obviously this one has dealt with this section of track before and knows what to expect and how to deal with it.
Euclid tree68 Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision. Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed." The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH. I understand that it is not just a speed limit although it includes a maximum speed limit. Other than just that maximum speed limit, it requires being able to stop within half the range of vision. So I go back to what I said above which was this: “It [the road running in the video] would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location.” I am referring to the entire procedure of “restricted speed” and not just the maximum speed limit. The reason that the procedure of restricted speed is not restrictive enough is that, for this street running, the method of operation has to be a requirement to be able to stop in considerably less distance than half the range of vision. The reason is that there are routinely potential close range incursions into the train foul zone in this oddball street/railroad layout. I would say the problem could be addressed with a new version of restricted speed that requires being able to stop in 1/10th the range of vision. Or just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe.
tree68 Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision. Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed." The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH.
Bucky - Restricted speed is a method of operation whereby the engineer is required to operate in such a manner as to be able to stop in half the range of vision.
Rules for restricted speed never invoke a "speed limit." They state "Not To Exceed."
The maximum practical speed based on conditions might be 5 MPH.
I understand that it is not just a speed limit although it includes a maximum speed limit. Other than just that maximum speed limit, it requires being able to stop within half the range of vision.
So I go back to what I said above which was this:
“It [the road running in the video] would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Being able to stop within one half of the range of vision would not address the problem in this location.”
I am referring to the entire procedure of “restricted speed” and not just the maximum speed limit. The reason that the procedure of restricted speed is not restrictive enough is that, for this street running, the method of operation has to be a requirement to be able to stop in considerably less distance than half the range of vision.
The reason is that there are routinely potential close range incursions into the train foul zone in this oddball street/railroad layout. I would say the problem could be addressed with a new version of restricted speed that requires being able to stop in 1/10th the range of vision.
Or just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe.
I think zugmann explained it the best up a half a dozen posts:RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!In addition, I think this falls into the category of "this ain't the first rodeo we've been to". Engineers qualify for their territory and obviously this one has dealt with this section of track before and knows what to expect and how to deal with it.
This method is capped with a maxium speed limit that cannot be exceeded even if range of vision and stopping ability would allow it.
So restricted speed is indeed a speed limit, but not just one speed limit. It partly a varying maxium speed limit set by a formula, and partly a maximum speed cap overriding the formula.
My point is that this restricted speed rule does not address the dangers of running though that town. It would probably top right out at 20 mph unless it was foggy. If there was a reason to stop a train moving 20 mph, it would probably run completely through that area before it stopped. I would say that they need an absolute speed limit of 10 mph through there. The engineer of the train in the video was probably under 10 mph upon entering that area.
Maybe this will help Bucky.
Because of the location of the Denver station with respect to the BNSF anf UP tracks, the California Zephyr, both eastbound and westbound, is backed in to the station. The conductor stands at the rear and tells the engineer what his own range of vision is, continually saying that his range of vision is so many carlengths--and the engineer makes certain that the speed is such that he can stop the train in one-half of the distance that the conductor tells him; the range varies as the train backs around the wye.
The same applies in Salt Lake City when it is necessary to detour across Wyoming--eastbound, the train backs out of the station, and westbound, the train backs in to the station (I have obseved the inbound movement here, but I already been in my berth when we left on my way east.).
Johnny
EuclidOr just set a very low speed limit through there. Every train faces the same danger. The incursions come without warning. So there are no situations in which a higher limit of restricted speed would be safe.
I'd bet that every railroader has run in dense fog so thick that you cannot see beyond the nose of the locomotive, especially at night. In those cases, what restricted speed would be safe? Sometimes the Conductor has to walk ahead, as long as he is radio equipped; and even then, a lit fusee might be necessary to ascertain that he hasn't fallen.
There is a maximum for restricted speed, either 15 or 20 mph depending on rule book. However, conditions may require that 5 mph. Maybe even less or not moving at all.
For that location, maybe we can take a page out of history and require a man on horse back to precede the movement through the area of street running.
deleted
zugmann Euclid It would require something more restrictive than restricted speed. Yeah, that doesn't exist. And there are times when running restricted speed you have to stop within a few feet. You adjust speed accordingly. After all (let's all say it together): RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!
Euclid It would require something more restrictive than restricted speed.
Yeah, that doesn't exist. And there are times when running restricted speed you have to stop within a few feet. You adjust speed accordingly. After all (let's all say it together): RESTRICTED SPEED IS NOT A SPEED, BUT A METHOD OF OPERATION!
What I was thinking was something more restrictive than the maximum speed allowed under restricted speed. But if the "method of operation" element of restrictive speed would address the short range fouling likely to occur, then restrictive speed would be adequate. But in any case, we are told that restricted speed is not in effect at that location.
In the case of the street running in the video, the half sight distance would be way too long. What good is being able to stop within half the site distance (say 1500 feet) for abrupt fouling that is likely to occur in a range of 1-500 feet? Of course, you can't stop within 1 foot, but 200 feet seems reasonable. Under 200 feet, vehicle drivers must be instructed to yield to trains. I wonder if there are any signs telling drivers what to do there.
I agree that restricted speed is not a speed, but a method of operation. But the method of operation needs to be targeted at the most likely form of obstruction, and the 15 mph limit of restricted speed is too high for stopping for that most likely form of obstruction.
The engineer in this video used a perfect method of operation.
Murphy Siding Like double-secret restricted speed? Mischief
I mean, I guess you could go backwards?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
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