Military engineers of any country, especially the Germany of the time, were pretty good at figuring out what the important infrastructure targets were likely to be and where the appropriate repair materials should be staged, which is the best way to expedite repairs.
But the thing is, after the invasion both the American and British air forces were too good at destroying rail infrastructure. After the Normandy breakout the pusuit of the Germans was hampered by all the destroyed rail lines and bridges, which obviously the Germans didn't need at that point. Much needed supplies, especially fuels, just couldn't be moved fast enough.
Oh well, hindsight's "20-20." No-one expected the Germans in France to collapse as fast as they did.
Any way, Mr. Steve asked about armored trains earlier. Here's a good 12 minute history of armored trains in WW1. VERY interesting!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Jl5KdG-Tc
If the Bf 109g, a pretty small fighter, could handle 20mm cannon mounted underwing successfully , I think it indicates that cannons are not problematic.
Steve Sweeney Curious. I don't see mention of the B-26 Marauders. (Did I miss it?) I thought they were involved in fighter-bomber operations including strafing runs and close air support?
Curious. I don't see mention of the B-26 Marauders. (Did I miss it?) I thought they were involved in fighter-bomber operations including strafing runs and close air support?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Railyard at Marburg Germany being bombed by the 9th Air Force on February 22nd, 1945.
Captured rail shipment of Me-109 fighters.
"Lest we forget..."
I was going to make a funny comment with a post a few minutes ago, but I can't after seeing that B-26. I'll have to wait for a while.
A sad picture of a B-26 just moments before spiraling out of control, after taking flak damage while on a bombing run on a railroad bridge in Marzabotto Italy (I'm not fudging the target in disregard/defiance of the above post; It's really what the photo caption states.).
The thread is diverging from rail again. Please keep on track.
Steve SweeneyDigital Editor, Hobby
Which led to the A-10 and the GAU-8 ;)
54light15 I have seen pictures of a B-25 with one cannon mounted in the nose, offset to one side. Was that a 75MM? I imagine it would damage the aircraft if used.
I have seen pictures of a B-25 with one cannon mounted in the nose, offset to one side. Was that a 75MM? I imagine it would damage the aircraft if used.
Yes it was. The problem with the 75mm was it shook the airplane tremendously and filled the cockpit with smoke, at least according to an "Air Classics" magazine article I read years ago.
"Redneck engineering" indeed! Show what happens when you turn a lot of American kids loose with some high-powered machinery, "back-yard mechanic" skills and a "go for it" attitude!
4 20mm cannon wouldn't bother a B25. The much smaller P38 Lightning had 1-20mm and 4-.50cal MG in the nose and did fine. It was the 75mm cannon that did the damage.
SALfanThese were not successful, because the recoil from the cannons shook the planes to pieces.
I believe you'll find it wasn't the vibration that was the problem, as I recall it was the 'retro-rocket' effect of the recoil. The four cannon together slowed the plane abruptly to below safe flying speed with even a reasonably sustained burst, with the plane having to be essentially in a steep dive to get the cannon to bear on the target. Subsequent recovery, unassisted by any practical means of recovering airspeed combined with much heavier wing loading, would be difficult and dangerous at best; more troublesome if you were expected to execute evasive maneuvers at the same time...
You can reduce some of the effect of 'felt' recoil using recoilless-rifle techniques like active hydraulic mounts or muzzle brakes. Note that one of the points of the 20mm shell is that the projectiles rely on explosives, not momentum, for most of their damage, so the actual mass being ejected during a nominal period of firing can be relatively low.
The bad news is that the sequential cannon shells can be fuzed to detonate at different delays, as the armorer prepares the chain. So instead of just shredding the surface as AP machine-gun bullets do, you can get penetration to what may be several depths, through the presumed structure of the ship (and its crew and cargo, particularly including that of troop transports). Even a comparatively short firing can produce more severe damage than the same 'throw weight' in one large explosive projectile hit like the shell from a larger-bore ship's gun.
We might gainfully compare the net recoil effect of the 37mm cannon in the Airacobra with the 4 20mm on the proposed design.
SALfan IIRC the P-39 was designed as a ground-attack plane, so it should have been pretty good at the job.
It rather shares that characteristic with the A10 "Wart Hog," essentially an airplane built around a weapon (the Gatling gun, in that case). An A10 would be hopelessly outclassed by just about every fighter in the air today, but it's the cat's meow for ground support.
The A10, with it's depleted uranium projectiles, certainly would have wreaked havoc on German trains in WWII.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
To respond to some earlier posts in this thread, IIRC the P-39 was designed as a ground-attack plane, so it should have been pretty good at the job. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I believe some "redneck engineering" by the 5th Air Force (with McArthur in the Southwest Pacific campaign) mounted four 20-mm cannons in the nose of a B-25 for the purpose of sinking ships. These were not successful, because the recoil from the cannons shook the planes to pieces. Can't imagine how the fire from 4 cannons would have torn thru an un-armored merchant ship.
Well, maybe the 1919 fly-through might have been the target of an attempted cover-up as well, but those crazy French fighter jocks had two movie cameras set up to catch it! They wanted it recorded for posterity!
The Parisians and the French people in general probably got a kick out of it too!
Too bad there weren't cell phone cameras around in 1968 London, any video of that RAF pilot's wackyness would have been priceless!
Flintlock76That Nieuport under the Arc protest was nothing compared to what this guy did! Although fifty years apart, gotta love 'em both! One with a Nieuport in Paris, one with a Hawker Hunter jet in London! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gavx54dKYvI
Although fifty years apart, gotta love 'em both!
One with a Nieuport in Paris, one with a Hawker Hunter jet in London!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gavx54dKYvI
50 years later the protest would not have been able to be covered up.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
That Nieuport under the Arc protest was nothing compared to what this guy did!
A French Nieuport 27 protest flight through the Arc de Triomphe (and a man jumps from a train to an airplane)
Great stuff! If you've never seen it, watch "Detour" with Tom Neal and Ann Savage- it's the worst and best film noir ever made. Watch it and you'll see why.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037638/
Don't mess with The Penguin!
He's got twin fifties and he knows how to use 'em!
Don't mess with The Joker either!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PzPE69_mqo
The President and the Penguin 'The Rear Gunner'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKdLbEQ6Dv8
Rail mounted targets in training.
Oh boy! Running engines over and over to take off power is not good. Don't remember turbo prop engines. Those probably deriviative of Allison 501-D13 engines depending on their date of manufacture. Alot depends on how long TO power applied. Can count as a cycle towards cycle limit but will bet was not counted ?
Number counts toward hot section inspection or maybe even a replacement of a compressor or turbine disk.
Miningman Glenn L. Martin Courtesy of Mike of course!! https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GlBpqGWOL._SL1005_.jpg https://www.amazon.com/Marauder-Strike-signed-Robert-Sullivan/dp/B01D538Z9Q https://ia800504.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php? zip=/1/items/TheHistoryAndDevelopmentOfTheGlennL.MartinCompanyBaltimore/GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_jp2.zip&file=GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_jp2/GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_0004.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0 https://ia800504.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/1/items/TheHistoryAndDevelopmentOfTheGlennL.MartinCompanyBaltimore/GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_jp2.zip&file=GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_jp2/GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_0023.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0 https://ia800504.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/1/items/TheHistoryAndDevelopmentOfTheGlennL.MartinCompanyBaltimore/GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_jp2.zip&file=GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_jp2/GottiebRobert-univarch-014281_0024.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0 https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryAndDevelopmentOfTheGlennL.MartinCompanyBaltimore/page/n23
Glenn L. Martin Courtesy of Mike of course!!
Now the site of Glenn L. Martin State Airport. Home of the Maryland Air National Guard and the Maryland State Police helicopters in the Baltimore/Central Maryland area.
Back in the early 1980's a sports car club I belonged to obtained permission to conduct an 'autocross' (single car parking lot speed contest around a traffic pylon marked course). All cars participating were stock or slightly modified vehicles that were all street licensed and all without open exhausts. The event was 'delayed' several times as the State Police operated helicopters into and out of their facility. Additionally the MANG was training with their four C-130's - all morning sitting at the end of a runway that was a couple of hundred yards from the area we had permission to use - running take off check list practices - idling and then running the engines up to take off power - over and over and over again. In the afternoon they then put their morning practices into action and practiced take offs and landings - taxiing after landing back to the end of the runway where they had been doing their morning practices (wind direction).
We completed our event without getting complaints from anyone, neighbors, State Police or ANG. When we requested to use the property again, later in the year, we were denied.....We made too much noise! Go Figure - the silent helicopters and the silent C130's.......and all those noisy street cars.
I'll "light it up" for you Charlie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF85LiDyVTY
My corroded beyond belief high-school German's gonna get a work-out...
Here is an interesting compilation of footage featuring the Ju-87g Kannonenvogel "cannonbird" such as ace Rudel (over 500 tank kills, though a pretty unrepentant Nazi) flew. It could still divebomb, but had evolved as a sturdy platform for mounting various mm anti-tank cannon. It's in German, but the footage is rare, along with some cgi.
https://youtu.be/YF85LiDyVTY
The German's use of armored trains would have depended on the purpose of the train itself. For example Hitler's Fuehrer Sonderzug, or "Special Train", certainly was armored, with car-mounted flak batteries. I'd suppose any train with a Nazi big-wig on board had the same set-up. It would have been impractical to set every train up with armor.
Certainly any kind of a tasty target the Germans might have had like railyards would have been well-supplied with anti-aircraft. The usual doctrine would have been to install them in semi-permanent fashion. They might have set them up on flatcars to move around in an as-needed, it's certainly possible. Goes without saying in some areas the flak would have been murderous, those German gunners were well-trained and knew their business.
I did some further research on B-26's in a ground attack capacity. It was tried in North Africa with poor results and heavy losses, then again in Europe with the same results. The B-26's performed best in the 10,000 foot (plus or minus) altitude range. Medium bomber, medium altitude.
Steve SweeneyOK, now I know. BTW, did the Wermacht (or Luftwaffe for that matter) deploy armored defensive trains? I know of the armored trains from the Eastern front (WWI, Russian Revolution, early WWII, etc.) But did they send out AA batteries on flatcars in rail yards? It would seem to make sense, but don't recall if they did.
BTW, did the Wermacht (or Luftwaffe for that matter) deploy armored defensive trains? I know of the armored trains from the Eastern front (WWI, Russian Revolution, early WWII, etc.) But did they send out AA batteries on flatcars in rail yards? It would seem to make sense, but don't recall if they did.
Just remember that in WW II the Germans had a leader that 'knew it all' better than any of his Generals or staff that had been tasked with doing those kinds of jobs. At least to his own mind.
Flintlock76 Possibly Steve, but not so much. The B-26 was classified as a medium bomber so ground attack and strafing would have been a little out of their mission profile. On the other hand, there was the Douglas A-26, an attack aircraft and light bomber. They were very much used for ground attack, as a matter of fact the twin-engine aircraft you see preparing to attack the train in that Burt Lancaster film "The Train" are A-26's, still in service with the French Air Force in the mid-sixties. As a matter of fact the US Air Force was still using them in the 60's, they were that good! The Vietnam War was was their "last hurrah." There were a few in attendance at the most recent Oshkosh Fly-In. Wayne
Possibly Steve, but not so much. The B-26 was classified as a medium bomber so ground attack and strafing would have been a little out of their mission profile.
On the other hand, there was the Douglas A-26, an attack aircraft and light bomber. They were very much used for ground attack, as a matter of fact the twin-engine aircraft you see preparing to attack the train in that Burt Lancaster film "The Train" are A-26's, still in service with the French Air Force in the mid-sixties. As a matter of fact the US Air Force was still using them in the 60's, they were that good! The Vietnam War was was their "last hurrah."
There were a few in attendance at the most recent Oshkosh Fly-In.
Wayne
OK, now I know.
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