zardozHowever, be advised before opening this thread that there might be some acrimonious verbiage and behavior.
I think that it is just grand that you have given all the malcontents this venue to polish their skillz. Do you intend to moderate yourself, or just everyone else?
NKP guy Can we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes? Balt, if you haven't written any railroad-related articles or books, you ought to. I think your description of diesels (above) is almost poetic in its imagery. It was easy to imagine being there. The comment about steam fans making diesel fans feel they missed everything worth experiencing made a good point. But there really was something ineffable about steam engines; it's probably why crowds turn out to watch them on the Cuyahoga Valley line; not many stand by to watch first generation diesels there. My gripes: 1. I still miss cabooses. Today, after the locomotives pass by, why stick around? Is watching another hundred freight containers pass by better than the first hundred? 2. I agree with Miningman that watching trains made up of only one type of railcar, to say nothing of containers, are inherently less interesting than the traditional mixed freights that caught my attention when I was young. 3. I miss the freedom to go onto railroad property to take photos, go up into towers to talk to operators, and to talk my way into cab rides. I remember some years ago a discussion here or in the magazine about not only never looking out a dutch door, but to stop publishing photos that were made that way. Imagine! Now we get censorious when we see a published photo of a photograper on RR property. 4. I agree with Flintlock76 (again): It's poor form for any American to use the term Canuck unless it's with friends and everyone's in the same room, just in case someone takes exception and a punch needs to be thrown. 5. The constant back-and-forth discussion about the efficacy of ending LD Amtrak service probably hasn't changed many, if any, minds. Like the topic of abortion in newspaper letters, it amounts to lots of venting and posturing, but no persuading. Still, I don't expect to see the end to either discussion any time soon.
Can we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes?
Balt, if you haven't written any railroad-related articles or books, you ought to. I think your description of diesels (above) is almost poetic in its imagery. It was easy to imagine being there.
The comment about steam fans making diesel fans feel they missed everything worth experiencing made a good point. But there really was something ineffable about steam engines; it's probably why crowds turn out to watch them on the Cuyahoga Valley line; not many stand by to watch first generation diesels there.
My gripes:
1. I still miss cabooses. Today, after the locomotives pass by, why stick around? Is watching another hundred freight containers pass by better than the first hundred?
2. I agree with Miningman that watching trains made up of only one type of railcar, to say nothing of containers, are inherently less interesting than the traditional mixed freights that caught my attention when I was young.
3. I miss the freedom to go onto railroad property to take photos, go up into towers to talk to operators, and to talk my way into cab rides. I remember some years ago a discussion here or in the magazine about not only never looking out a dutch door, but to stop publishing photos that were made that way. Imagine! Now we get censorious when we see a published photo of a photograper on RR property.
4. I agree with Flintlock76 (again): It's poor form for any American to use the term Canuck unless it's with friends and everyone's in the same room, just in case someone takes exception and a punch needs to be thrown.
5. The constant back-and-forth discussion about the efficacy of ending LD Amtrak service probably hasn't changed many, if any, minds. Like the topic of abortion in newspaper letters, it amounts to lots of venting and posturing, but no persuading. Still, I don't expect to see the end to either discussion any time soon.
I heartily concur.
If I had to name one thing, I’d say the thing I miss most is cabooses.
After that, I miss E and F units, and trains without either TFC or containers.
Thank you! Those Jerusalem signals are neat!
For Juniata Man : From David Klepper to Mike and finally to you.
To my eyes, which had only limited exposure to Sand Patch Grade more than 20 years ago, that B&O coal train captioned as being eastbound approaching the summit looks more like a westbound approaching the summit, snaking through the reverse curves at Manila, between the east portal of Sand Patch Tunnel and Mance curve. The patchwork of farm land and forest on the distant hillside closely resembles what I remember being there, as well as what's shown on Google Maps today. Someone with more time on their hands than me (lunch break is over...gotta get back to work) might even compare the pole line placement (north side vs. south side, etc.) of the posted photo with other photos from the steam era up into the 70s or 80s taken both at Manila and in the first few miles west of Sand Patch. Poles and wires seem largely gone from the hill now.
NKP guyThose really were some ignorant teenagers. The real epithet they were trying for was/is Bohunk. Like Polak, it's a term that may be used only by members of the group, not outsiders (like Canuck or the n word). So the offense would not be at the NewBo market, but rather at the NewBohunk market. That would be bad for several reasons! No Bohemians, be they Czechs or Moravians, takes offense at Puccini's use of the name in his opera about poor (French) artists in Paris, but he's not using it in a disparaging way.
The real epithet they were trying for was/is Bohunk. Like Polak, it's a term that may be used only by members of the group, not outsiders (like Canuck or the n word).
So the offense would not be at the NewBo market, but rather at the NewBohunk market. That would be bad for several reasons!
No Bohemians, be they Czechs or Moravians, takes offense at Puccini's use of the name in his opera about poor (French) artists in Paris, but he's not using it in a disparaging way.
It wasn't just the teenagers that were ignorant. It was also the two engineers at work that explained to me what the teens were saying! Thanks for the additional info!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I'm not on the Trains Forums that much at all. My bailiwick is over on Classic, because Railroad history is rich and important. There are really not that many of us over there, fewer still starting threads. I do worry about the future of the Classic Forum though and in addition to my own posts I post on behalf of a former Forum member, who's contributions are quite inspiring, informative and spectacular.
Savage TunnelIt's too bad that you feel you have to dominate discussions on both forums,
I don't get it. Why do you feel that Miningman is trying to dominate the discussions? I've always enjoyed his contributions.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Those really were some ignorant teenagers.
The real epithet they were trying for was/is Bohunk. Like Polak, it's a term that may be used only by members of the group, not outsiders (like Canuck or the n word). In the 1970's some blacks used the term honky, or honkies, as an epithet for whites; this was a corruption of the word Bohunk.
No Bohemians, be they Czechs or Moravians, take offense at Puccini's use of the name in his opera about poor (French) artists in Paris, but he's not using it in a disparaging way.
I was sent to Toronto a couple of times by my company (many years ago) and folk there seemed to use "Cannuk" quite freely in referring to themselves. But, language has its own life and changes with time...
The High School I attended had a mixed student body and nearly 50% referred to themselves with the “n” word, but most of the time there was no intent to insult or claim of being insulted (especially when used by that portion of the students) unless shouted in anger (by anybody of any color). It was just a term like “African-American”, or “Black”.
Of course, I’d be severely reprimanded if I were to spell that word out in the forum today.
When I moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa, there were a couple of teenagers that lived down the street from me. They were rather foul-mouthed individuals (not unlike many teens then and now). One of the epithets they often hurled at anyone that they didn’t like (or each other) was to call them a “Bo”. I had never heard the term, so I asked about it at work and was told it was a shortened form of “Bohemian” and was considered an objectionable term, (not unlike the “n” word today).
There is an area here known as “Czech Village” that used to have many businesses that were run (at least at one time) by people of Czech (Bohemian) heritage.
A demeaning comment to anyone was to accuse them of coming from the “Bo neighborhood”, much akin to saying they came from the “wrong side of the tracks”.
After the flood of 2008 here, that wiped out a large portion of the downtown area, including the area known as “Czech Village” and the large housing neighborhood around it, the city decided to improve the area on the other side of the river and named it the “NewBo” area (the "NewBo market", banners with that name on every lamppole, etc.).
Every time I read or hear of goings on in that area (lots of money spent on flood protection for the “NewBo” area, but not so much for Czech Village) I wonder if the former residents of that area cringe at the name.
Some might suggest/demand a hyphen "but that would be wrong," RMN.
charlie hebdoNice idea. Reading this thread shows an excellent example of tangential thinking in the form of mission creep.
Is there supposed to be a comma before creep?
(wink)
NKP guy With all of our friends in here from the Dominion of the North, do we now have (a) Canadian Club? (speaking of a sour mash club)
With all of our friends in here from the Dominion of the North, do we now have (a) Canadian Club? (speaking of a sour mash club)
Nice idea. Reading this thread shows an excellent example of tangential thinking in the form of mission creep.
NKP guyWith all of our friends in here from the Dominion of the North, do we now have (a) Canadian Club?
Speaking as one who has been accorded honourary Canadian citizenship, and who learned to appreciate good rye and ginger from someone I greatly respected (from far upstate New York), if there isn't a Canadian Club I'd like to see one established. (See the Sour Mash thread...)
SD70DudeForget honourary Canuck, I hereby bestow upon you full Canadian citizenship, and full membership in the C.A.S.O, which Miningman and I must get around to starting soon...
I am deeply honoured (note sp.) as that is not a distinction conferred lightly.
The first of the nine-part series is Agents of CASO: Taking the Future Back. (And part of it involves the re-creation, "as a film prop" of course, of a functional TH&B Hudson...)
Overmod Frankly, I'm waiting for the Chapterverse to re-introduce Nelvana, as she helps Tom Evans return to to the past as head of the Canadian Assisting Steam Organization to save Canada's greatest railroad asset from destruction.
Frankly, I'm waiting for the Chapterverse to re-introduce Nelvana, as she helps Tom Evans return to to the past as head of the Canadian Assisting Steam Organization to save Canada's greatest railroad asset from destruction.
Is there nothing you don't know!?
Forget honourary Canuck, I hereby bestow upon you full Canadian citizenship, and full membership in the C.A.S.O, which Miningman and I must get around to starting soon...
What shall we call the movie, perhaps "CASO Chapter I: Lines of Steaming Past"?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
daveklepper I also do miss steam, but am somewhat compensated by the steam that does exist, like the UP's program, Cass, Strasberg, Steamtown, C&T, D&S, more, and even by what goes on across the pond. And for me three mu trains exchanging passsengers at Jamaica with the one in the middle acting as a bridge for those moving between the outer ones is still worth watching. So are four trains moving in or out and four stationary on the eight-track Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island under-the-traditional-trainshed (new!) staition as observed from the overhead bridge, which I hope is still tlhere! But all this for me is via email. It's my choice, and I am willing to live with it with the additional compensations. Rode Light Rail twice alreay today, just to mail a letter at the main post office. Did I really expect to see light rail or railway electrification in my lifetime when I moved here? Maybe, just maybe, I'll even see restored steam!
I also do miss steam, but am somewhat compensated by the steam that does exist, like the UP's program, Cass, Strasberg, Steamtown, C&T, D&S, more, and even by what goes on across the pond. And for me three mu trains exchanging passsengers at Jamaica with the one in the middle acting as a bridge for those moving between the outer ones is still worth watching. So are four trains moving in or out and four stationary on the eight-track Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island under-the-traditional-trainshed (new!) staition as observed from the overhead bridge, which I hope is still tlhere!
But all this for me is via email. It's my choice, and I am willing to live with it with the additional compensations. Rode Light Rail twice alreay today, just to mail a letter at the main post office. Did I really expect to see light rail or railway electrification in my lifetime when I moved here? Maybe, just maybe, I'll even see restored steam!
Dave, you truly are a witness to advances in passenger rail transportation in Israel. It's enviable having the contrasts between the ancient and ultra-modern.
Pizza (with a beer) is classic American - a perfect substitute for popcorn on this thread.
Anyhow; I got to thinking about this recently when my sister sent me photos from PA showing the removal of the classic PRR position light signals along my beloved former Middle Division. Whether it’s the result of PSR along with PTC and other advances in technology over the years; the thing that strikes me is how homogeneous and soulless railroading has become since I was a kid. Gone are cabooses, code lines, towers, railroad specific signal systems - take your pick. And I realize this is kind of a perpetual lament, no matter what era we’re discussing.
When the money changers on Wall Street finally get their way and railroads are all operated by remote control; I either hope I’m not here to see it or I can convince myself to “move on” and find something else to replace my railroad interest.
zugmann Quartet of SD40-2s soving a train up the west slope in PA. Ground vibrating a mile before you see them. Yeah, steam put on a show, but diesels can move more with such elegance. Then with the push of a button they can be silent until needed again.
Quartet of SD40-2s soving a train up the west slope in PA. Ground vibrating a mile before you see them. Yeah, steam put on a show, but diesels can move more with such elegance. Then with the push of a button they can be silent until needed again.
I see your quartet of SD40's, and raise you by eight (8) more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBPVTEx9Syw
A shame I was born too late to see that spectacle.
One of the more impressive sights I have witnessed is the thundering chug of six (6) GEVO and FDL-engined GE units (4 on the head end, 2 remotes) lugging a loaded sand train up the remote 1.6% grade of CN's Grande Cache Subdivision in western Alberta. With the mix of 12 and 16 cylinder engines the exhaust had a out-of-beat cacaphony to it, almost like doubleheaded steam locomotives.
Am I in danger of taking over this thread, just like the other Canucks on here?
BaltACDI guess life was truly cheaper back in history.
For fun, watch this film from the same source as Victrola1's boys-and-locomotives post and see how many life-threatening things per minute you can spot. Makes you truly appreciate the importance of computer-controlled retarders, doesn't it?
Overmod NKP guy Can we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes? I like this idea. Think I'll start it, if you don't. It would be for sharing reminiscences and thoughts, rather than familiar old philippics and rants and 'Rudolpho delenda est' comments appended to nearly every speech... the sort of thing a good single-malt Scotch, or tawny port, would be good for. I remember some years ago a discussion here or in the magazine about not only never looking out a dutch door, but to stop publishing photos that were made that way. Imagine! It's gone dramatically further than that in England, with the recent decision that even heritage railways have to take SPECIFIC technical action to keep anyone from leaning out of the train for any reason ... including automatic interlocks costing north of $25,000 per car to keep all the doors closed when moving.
NKP guy Can we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes?
I like this idea. Think I'll start it, if you don't. It would be for sharing reminiscences and thoughts, rather than familiar old philippics and rants and 'Rudolpho delenda est' comments appended to nearly every speech... the sort of thing a good single-malt Scotch, or tawny port, would be good for.
I remember some years ago a discussion here or in the magazine about not only never looking out a dutch door, but to stop publishing photos that were made that way. Imagine!
It's gone dramatically further than that in England, with the recent decision that even heritage railways have to take SPECIFIC technical action to keep anyone from leaning out of the train for any reason ... including automatic interlocks costing north of $25,000 per car to keep all the doors closed when moving.
I guess life was truly cheaper back in history.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Savage Tunnel But yet I'll wager you've never been there... in any era. It's too bad that you feel you have to dominate discussions on both forums, maybe it's a Canuck thing.I prefered Sand Patch in the 1970s, SD's, Chessie Steam Special, and a neat swimming hole.
But yet I'll wager you've never been there... in any era.
It's too bad that you feel you have to dominate discussions on both forums, maybe it's a Canuck thing.I prefered Sand Patch in the 1970s, SD's, Chessie Steam Special, and a neat swimming hole.
Whoa get a load of this guy, what a hoser! Like take off, eh! Those are some right sour grapes indeed ya got there buddy!
I for one do not mind being branded as a "Canuck" (I do object to the Great White North being called Soviet Canuckistan) because of these guys:
BaltACD No. 9 would arrive Pittsbugh about 10 PM and would give you a real light show as it passed all the steel mills that inhabited the route from McKeespot to the P&LE Station at Pittsburgh. The light show of the various steel making operations had to be seen to be appreciated, especially as a 8 year old.
How true! Nothing compares!
My college roommate rode the B&O between Connellsville and Kent (O.) many times. He said in McKeesport the train didn't pass by the steel mills...it went through them. "You can see the inventory numbers on the boxes, that's how close!" I was dubious...until I took that ride myself. He was right! Through the mills!
Pittsburgh at night from the Chicago Night Express or the Washington Night Express! Mmmmmmm. That's something I'd like to see again.
NKP guyCan we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes?
I like this idea. Think I'll start it, if you don't. It would be for sharing reminiscences and thoughts, rather than familiar old philippics and rants and 'Rudolpho delenda est' comments appended to nearly every speech that this thread is good for ... in other words, the sort of things a good single-malt Scotch, or tawny port, would be good for 'helping to inspire'.
Savage Tunnel Miningman Is there enough popcorn on the planet for this show? However.. while the popcorn is popping we can take a break from the schadenfreude and focus on what's really bugging us. I'll take a swing and an old one rehashed one at that but I'm going down with valour and holding my ground. Spillover, from Classic Trains Photo of the Day. Sand Patch Baltimore & Ohio F7s tackle the twisting approach to the Sand Patch summit in southern Pennsylvania with an eastbound coal train in February 1953. The B&O had almost 300 F7 A and B units, in addition to FT, F3, and FP7 models.S.K. Bolton Jr. photo Coal being hauled by F7's in whatever configuration over Sand Patch. About as exciting as watching paint dry. No steam working to its limit, wheels valiantly rotating as the rods struggle to push in unison. No poetry in motion. Might as well watch a bus go by somewhere and smell the stinky exhaust. No coal smoke, valve oil and steam. Worse yet it's a poke in the eye to the coal industry. 300 boring lifeless lookalikes on the B&O. Early 1953 too! Thousands more here and coming nationwide. No crack of an articulated. No whistle. A sick cow horn the equivalent sound of passing gas. No romance, No charm. Some say, " I love the sound of 567's working a drag uphill"... gimme a break, even as a kid I knew better. I walked away. Just a stupid Diesel who cares. But yet I'll wager you've never been there... in any era. It's too bad that you feel you have to dominate discussions on both forums, maybe it's a Canuck thing.I prefered Sand Patch in the 1970s, SD's, Chessie Steam Special, and a neat swimming hole.
Miningman Is there enough popcorn on the planet for this show? However.. while the popcorn is popping we can take a break from the schadenfreude and focus on what's really bugging us. I'll take a swing and an old one rehashed one at that but I'm going down with valour and holding my ground. Spillover, from Classic Trains Photo of the Day. Sand Patch Baltimore & Ohio F7s tackle the twisting approach to the Sand Patch summit in southern Pennsylvania with an eastbound coal train in February 1953. The B&O had almost 300 F7 A and B units, in addition to FT, F3, and FP7 models.S.K. Bolton Jr. photo Coal being hauled by F7's in whatever configuration over Sand Patch. About as exciting as watching paint dry. No steam working to its limit, wheels valiantly rotating as the rods struggle to push in unison. No poetry in motion. Might as well watch a bus go by somewhere and smell the stinky exhaust. No coal smoke, valve oil and steam. Worse yet it's a poke in the eye to the coal industry. 300 boring lifeless lookalikes on the B&O. Early 1953 too! Thousands more here and coming nationwide. No crack of an articulated. No whistle. A sick cow horn the equivalent sound of passing gas. No romance, No charm. Some say, " I love the sound of 567's working a drag uphill"... gimme a break, even as a kid I knew better. I walked away. Just a stupid Diesel who cares.
Is there enough popcorn on the planet for this show?
However.. while the popcorn is popping we can take a break from the schadenfreude and focus on what's really bugging us.
I'll take a swing and an old one rehashed one at that but I'm going down with valour and holding my ground.
Spillover, from Classic Trains Photo of the Day.
Baltimore & Ohio F7s tackle the twisting approach to the Sand Patch summit in southern Pennsylvania with an eastbound coal train in February 1953. The B&O had almost 300 F7 A and B units, in addition to FT, F3, and FP7 models.S.K. Bolton Jr. photo
Coal being hauled by F7's in whatever configuration over Sand Patch.
About as exciting as watching paint dry. No steam working to its limit, wheels valiantly rotating as the rods struggle to push in unison. No poetry in motion. Might as well watch a bus go by somewhere and smell the stinky exhaust. No coal smoke, valve oil and steam. Worse yet it's a poke in the eye to the coal industry. 300 boring lifeless lookalikes on the B&O. Early 1953 too! Thousands more here and coming nationwide.
No crack of an articulated. No whistle. A sick cow horn the equivalent sound of passing gas. No romance, No charm.
Some say, " I love the sound of 567's working a drag uphill"... gimme a break, even as a kid I knew better. I walked away. Just a stupid Diesel who cares.
I don't think Miningman's tone should be generalized to all Canadians or Canadiens. The term canuck does not belong in an intelligent discussion.
As the son of a railroader - I have memories of both steam and diesel, and a little electric.
Dad was called to Washington DC for the first Eisenhower inaugeration. He was TM at Garrett, IN at the time and that called for our family to return to its Maryland roots riding the Capitol Limited. Upon arrival in WUS we were made aware of the Federal's GG-1 going into the basement of the the station. With Dad's 'rank' we made our way to the basement to view the actions taking place as workmen were doing what was necessary to construct a false floor over the hole created by the GG-1's entry to the basement.
Also remember Dad and I taking a trip to Chicago from Garrett, for some reason riding the Mail Train No. 31. No. 31 was powered by one of the Chicago Division's own T-3 Mountains. The rider coach was a old 'walk over seat' affair that did not have air conditioning - air conditioning wasn't required that day - snow would find its way under, over and around the window frames. I just remember it being a uncomfortable and smelly, (smells from the coal smoke) trip for a 6 year old.
Subsequently Dad was transferred to Pittsburgh as TM. Family trips between Baltimore and Pittsburgh were normally trains Nos. 9 and 8. No. 9 would arrive Pittsbugh about 10 PM and would give you a real light show as it passed all the steel mills that inhabited the route from McKeespot to the P&LE Station at Pittsburgh. The light show of the various steel making operations had to be seen to be appreciated, especially as a 8 year old.
Another memory of the Pittsburgh residency. Attending a Pittsburgh Division company picnic that was held at a location at Mars, PA on a site that was adjacent to the P&W Subs Main Tracks. Recall observing a Westbound coal train that was climbing Bakerstown Hill. One mallet on the head end and two more mallets on the rear - all down to a crawl working for all they were worth. The most memorable observation of watching this train was that the cinders continued falling from the sky for about 10 minutes after the helpers had departed the scene.
In early 1959 Dad was tranferred from Baltimore to Garrett as Superintendent. In addition to making trips to and from Chicago to play railfan I also made trips to All Nation Hobby Shop to spend my allowance on various pieces or HO equipment for my model railroad. Making visits to all the downtown Chicago stations with the B&O occupying Grand Centeral Station, going to Chicago Union Station, CNW Station, LaSalle Street Station, Dearborn Station and going over to the lakefront for Illinois Central Station. A couple of times by Chicago trips happend when the CB&Q was operating their 5632 steam powered fan trips for CUS - I was fortunate enough to be able witness the departure of these trips.
Back in Garrett my group of friends (all sons of railroaders) would go out, after working hours, to the Garrett Shop Track that was about a mile or so West of the Garrett depot. In addition to the normal complement of cars undergoing various forms of repairs there were two of the T-3 steam engines that were in storage pending their eventual scraping. We spent many a late afternnon and evening playing 'eningeer' on these
Just a few of my memories.
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