How about using this thread for all of our griping about what's wrong with today's railroads (including but not limited to PSR & PTC), businesses, administration's decisions (relating to transportation), etc.
Perhaps we can all vent here without us having to bring down the discussions on other threads. Arguing here is fine; better here than in the other locations.
However, be advised before opening this thread that there might be some acrimonious verbiage and behavior.
I was going to use the 'popcorn' emoticon (needed for watching the show), but I did not see it as one of the choices, so I went with pizza.
I think railroads could save on rail grinding costs if they used square wheels.
CMStPnP I think railroads could save on rail grinding costs if they used square wheels.
How much would they save if they used "hip" wheels?
Thanks for taking up the suggestion.
So you want all the other threads to be Pollyanna, no problems, threads? No discussions of why or what may be contributing factors to the discussion at hand? What could make things better via different ideas? I agree that some of the acrimony can be totally out of place and useless to the sujbjects. Are we just supposed to come here to say so-n-so is a dork, but then make our arguments in the principal thread? I'd rather folk didn't say what another person is, in the other threads or here. Just say what you mean and don't repeat yourself when someone else speaks their mind in response.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Is there enough popcorn on the planet for this show?
However.. while the popcorn is popping we can take a break from the schadenfreude and focus on what's really bugging us.
I'll take a swing and an old one rehashed one at that but I'm going down with valour and holding my ground.
Spillover, from Classic Trains Photo of the Day.
Baltimore & Ohio F7s tackle the twisting approach to the Sand Patch summit in southern Pennsylvania with an eastbound coal train in February 1953. The B&O had almost 300 F7 A and B units, in addition to FT, F3, and FP7 models.S.K. Bolton Jr. photo
Coal being hauled by F7's in whatever configuration over Sand Patch.
About as exciting as watching paint dry. No steam working to its limit, wheels valiantly rotating as the rods struggle to push in unison. No poetry in motion. Might as well watch a bus go by somewhere and smell the stinky exhaust. No coal smoke, valve oil and steam. Worse yet it's a poke in the eye to the coal industry. 300 boring lifeless lookalikes on the B&O. Early 1953 too! Thousands more here and coming nationwide.
No crack of an articulated. No whistle. A sick cow horn the equivalent sound of passing gas. No romance, No charm.
Some say, " I love the sound of 567's working a drag uphill"... gimme a break, even as a kid I knew better. I walked away. Just a stupid Diesel who cares.
MiningmanIs there enough popcorn on the planet for this show? However.. while the popcorn is popping we can take a break from the schadenfreude and focus on what's really bugging us. I'll take a swing and an old one rehashed one at that but I'm going down with valour and holding my ground. Spillover, from Classic Trains Photo of the Day. Sand Patch Baltimore & Ohio F7s tackle the twisting approach to the Sand Patch summit in southern Pennsylvania with an eastbound coal train in February 1953. The B&O had almost 300 F7 A and B units, in addition to FT, F3, and FP7 models.S.K. Bolton Jr. photo Coal being hauled by F7's in whatever configuration over Sand Patch. About as exciting as watching paint dry. No steam working to its limit, wheels valiantly rotating as the rods struggle to push in unison. No poetry in motion. Might as well watch a bus go by somewhere and smell the stinky exhaust. No coal smoke, valve oil and steam. Worse yet it's a poke in the eye to the coal industry. 300 boring lifeless lookalikes on the B&O. Early 1953 too! Thousands more here and coming nationwide. No crack of an articulated. No whistle. A sick cow horn the equivalent sound of passing gas. No romance, No charm. Some say, " I love the sound of 567's working a drag uphill"... gimme a break, even as a kid I knew better. I walked away. Just a stupid Diesel who cares.
567's working to their limit - the smell of overheating traction motors straining and occasioually slipping and the the sounds and smells of overheating steel as the engines scratch and claw their way up the grade struggling to maintain their minimum continuous speed in a cloud of dust from the sand being dropped to enhance traction and being ground into powder by the passing wheels and blown around the the traction motor blowers.
I worked as the Operator at Bakerstown, PA - just about 20 car lengths from the crest of Bakerstown Hill on the B&O's P&W Sub between Pittsburgh, New Castle and the Buffalo Division points North of Eidenau (worked there too). Normal traffic was coal trains from the mines in SW Pennsylvania to New Castle and the Buffalo Division. About 5 minutes BEFORE trains hit the bell circuit you could hear the 567's chanting their way through the valley as the were working their way up the grade. As the head end started past the depot you would hear the 567's working to their max, the air compressors doing their thing and activating the spitter valve to vent moisture from the air system, hear the screech of an axle losing grip and having wheel slip until the wheel slip system caught it. Being on jointed rail you would hear the constant click, click click as the train started past - when the power and about 30 cars went past you could perceptably hear the rate of clicking on the joints becoming quicker and quicker as the head end crested the grade and started down the other side. The clicking picked up speed and then you could see the markers on the caboose come into view around the curve and the two unit helper still shoving for all its worth against the cab. As the two unit 3000 to 3500 hp helper passes the office they are throttling down and the brakeman on the cab is closing the angle cocks and making the cut to detach the helper. The helper stops just West of the trailing point crossovers, which I throw and give them a proceed signal to head back down the hill on the Eastbound track for their next shove.
Days long gone. The P&W was made into single track CTC in the middle 1970's. CSX stopped operating over it about 2006 and it was subsequently leased to both the Buffalo & Pittsburgh and the Allegheny Valley with the dividing point being Allison Park. I believe the AVL just converted their lease into a purchase; to my knowledge the B&P is still leasing. This was the original route of the Capitol Limited and all other B&O passenger trains until the trackage rights agreement was negotiated with the P&LE in the middle 30's.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Miningman No romance, No charm.
I'm with you, Miningman. Steam was alive. I still get a thrill remembering as a kid, lying in bed listening to a steam locomotive struggling to start a train out of the yard, taking up slack, trying again, sometimes with drivers slipping. When he finally got the train out on the main, he'd gradually accelerate, he'd blow the whistle for the crossing at the edge of town, and the sound gradually faded off in the distance. I couldn't help but get emotionally involved.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Thanks BALTADC. Trains are still worth watching, photographing, and, at least for me, riding.
Quartet of SD40-2s soving a train up the west slope in PA. Ground vibrating a mile before you see them. Yeah, steam put on a show, but diesels can move more with such elegance. Then with the push of a button they can be silent until needed again.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Miningman Is there enough popcorn on the planet for this show? However.. while the popcorn is popping we can take a break from the schadenfreude and focus on what's really bugging us. I'll take a swing and an old one rehashed one at that but I'm going down with valour and holding my ground. Spillover, from Classic Trains Photo of the Day. Sand Patch Baltimore & Ohio F7s tackle the twisting approach to the Sand Patch summit in southern Pennsylvania with an eastbound coal train in February 1953. The B&O had almost 300 F7 A and B units, in addition to FT, F3, and FP7 models.S.K. Bolton Jr. photo Coal being hauled by F7's in whatever configuration over Sand Patch. About as exciting as watching paint dry. No steam working to its limit, wheels valiantly rotating as the rods struggle to push in unison. No poetry in motion. Might as well watch a bus go by somewhere and smell the stinky exhaust. No coal smoke, valve oil and steam. Worse yet it's a poke in the eye to the coal industry. 300 boring lifeless lookalikes on the B&O. Early 1953 too! Thousands more here and coming nationwide. No crack of an articulated. No whistle. A sick cow horn the equivalent sound of passing gas. No romance, No charm. Some say, " I love the sound of 567's working a drag uphill"... gimme a break, even as a kid I knew better. I walked away. Just a stupid Diesel who cares.
But yet I'll wager you've never been there... in any era.
It's too bad that you feel you have to dominate discussions on both forums, maybe it's a Canuck thing.I prefered Sand Patch in the 1970s, SD's, Chessie Steam Special, and a neat swimming hole.
Miningman will obviously never appreciate a trio of SW7's on IHB working their guts out on level track in Hammond with a trainload of steel coils and steel plates.
Railroading is always fascinating, even when it's three trains of MU cars exchanging passengers at Jamaica.
According to some, those of us too young to remember steam (I'm 60) have just been wasting our time all these years...
Backshop According to some, those of us too young to remember steam (I'm 60) have just been wasting our time all these years...
I regret not being a railfan as a youth (and/or not having a father who was), as GT was still running steam near us on a regular basis when I was old enough to appreciate (and perhaps photograph) it in operation.
OTOH, C&O was running it's legions of "flat land" Geeps through our village, and while I wasn't necessarily captivated by them, I remember them.
I got a "tour" of a Geep once as it sat on the siding, a local waiting for through traffic to clear. Probably the fireman opened doors so I could see the prime mover (I don't recall being all that impressed). As he was doing so, the through train passed, and I must have asked if the locomotives on it were the same. I do recall being told that those locos were "bigger," which, in retrospect, must have meant they were SDs, not Geeps.
Where's the time machine when you need it?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
You nailed it Miningman! Cracked me up with the cow references too!
Oh, trains are still fun to watch in these diesel days, I'm tempted to say "Better than nuthin'," but that's extreme.
For me at least, seeing steam in action and then comparing it to a diesel, well, there's no comparison. Drama plus personality plus power, versus, well, power only.
Sand Patch Grade. The ghosts of those old steamers are still there. They say you can walk on the grade and still sink ankle-deep in the cinders left behind by those long-gone behemoths.
Uh, Savage Tunnel, take it easy on the "Canuck" thing. Our Canadian cousins may take it as a joke, or as an insult, you can never be sure. I stay away from that term as I would any ethnic "nickname," for lack of a better term.
Unless it's "guinea" or "mick." Being part of both and applying it to myself only on occasion I figure I'm allowed.
Can we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes?
Balt, if you haven't written any railroad-related articles or books, you ought to. I think your description of diesels (above) is almost poetic in its imagery. It was easy to imagine being there.
The comment about steam fans making diesel fans feel they missed everything worth experiencing made a good point. But there really was something ineffable about steam engines; it's probably why crowds turn out to watch them on the Cuyahoga Valley line; not many stand by to watch first generation diesels there.
My gripes:
1. I still miss cabooses. Today, after the locomotives pass by, why stick around? Is watching another hundred freight containers pass by better than the first hundred?
2. I agree with Miningman that watching trains made up of only one type of railcar, to say nothing of containers, are inherently less interesting than the traditional mixed freights that caught my attention when I was young.
3. I miss the freedom to go onto railroad property to take photos, go up into towers to talk to operators, and to talk my way into cab rides. I remember some years ago a discussion here or in the magazine about not only never looking out a dutch door, but to stop publishing photos that were made that way. Imagine! Now we get censorious when we see a published photo of a photograper on RR property.
4. I agree with Flintlock76 (again): It's poor form for any American to use the term Canuck unless it's with friends and everyone's in the same room, just in case someone takes exception and a punch needs to be thrown.
5. The constant back-and-forth discussion about the efficacy of ending LD Amtrak service probably hasn't changed many, if any, minds. Like the topic of abortion in newspaper letters, it amounts to lots of venting and posturing, but no persuading. Still, I don't expect to see the end to either discussion any time soon.
Semper Vaporo So you want all the other threads to be Pollyanna, no problems, threads? No discussions of why or what may be contributing factors to the discussion at hand? What could make things better via different ideas? I agree that some of the acrimony can be totally out of place and useless to the sujbjects. Are we just supposed to come here to say so-n-so is a dork, but then make our arguments in the principal thread? I'd rather folk didn't say what another person is, in the other threads or here. Just say what you mean and don't repeat yourself when someone else speaks their mind in response.
That's not what I understand sour grapes to mean. It's not about attacking other posters or not saying anything involving a critical analysis. It's concerning the negativity of some, usually those who see contemporary events as inferior to their notion of a golden era.There is at least one example of that on this thread.
I saw the very end of steam, end of an interurban, end of private passenger services, end of featherbedding and much of phase one of diesels as well as today's rails with all its plusses and minuses , both here and abroad. There's something of value in all.
As the son of a railroader - I have memories of both steam and diesel, and a little electric.
Dad was called to Washington DC for the first Eisenhower inaugeration. He was TM at Garrett, IN at the time and that called for our family to return to its Maryland roots riding the Capitol Limited. Upon arrival in WUS we were made aware of the Federal's GG-1 going into the basement of the the station. With Dad's 'rank' we made our way to the basement to view the actions taking place as workmen were doing what was necessary to construct a false floor over the hole created by the GG-1's entry to the basement.
Also remember Dad and I taking a trip to Chicago from Garrett, for some reason riding the Mail Train No. 31. No. 31 was powered by one of the Chicago Division's own T-3 Mountains. The rider coach was a old 'walk over seat' affair that did not have air conditioning - air conditioning wasn't required that day - snow would find its way under, over and around the window frames. I just remember it being a uncomfortable and smelly, (smells from the coal smoke) trip for a 6 year old.
Subsequently Dad was transferred to Pittsburgh as TM. Family trips between Baltimore and Pittsburgh were normally trains Nos. 9 and 8. No. 9 would arrive Pittsbugh about 10 PM and would give you a real light show as it passed all the steel mills that inhabited the route from McKeespot to the P&LE Station at Pittsburgh. The light show of the various steel making operations had to be seen to be appreciated, especially as a 8 year old.
Another memory of the Pittsburgh residency. Attending a Pittsburgh Division company picnic that was held at a location at Mars, PA on a site that was adjacent to the P&W Subs Main Tracks. Recall observing a Westbound coal train that was climbing Bakerstown Hill. One mallet on the head end and two more mallets on the rear - all down to a crawl working for all they were worth. The most memorable observation of watching this train was that the cinders continued falling from the sky for about 10 minutes after the helpers had departed the scene.
In early 1959 Dad was tranferred from Baltimore to Garrett as Superintendent. In addition to making trips to and from Chicago to play railfan I also made trips to All Nation Hobby Shop to spend my allowance on various pieces or HO equipment for my model railroad. Making visits to all the downtown Chicago stations with the B&O occupying Grand Centeral Station, going to Chicago Union Station, CNW Station, LaSalle Street Station, Dearborn Station and going over to the lakefront for Illinois Central Station. A couple of times by Chicago trips happend when the CB&Q was operating their 5632 steam powered fan trips for CUS - I was fortunate enough to be able witness the departure of these trips.
Back in Garrett my group of friends (all sons of railroaders) would go out, after working hours, to the Garrett Shop Track that was about a mile or so West of the Garrett depot. In addition to the normal complement of cars undergoing various forms of repairs there were two of the T-3 steam engines that were in storage pending their eventual scraping. We spent many a late afternnon and evening playing 'eningeer' on these
Just a few of my memories.
Savage Tunnel Miningman Is there enough popcorn on the planet for this show? However.. while the popcorn is popping we can take a break from the schadenfreude and focus on what's really bugging us. I'll take a swing and an old one rehashed one at that but I'm going down with valour and holding my ground. Spillover, from Classic Trains Photo of the Day. Sand Patch Baltimore & Ohio F7s tackle the twisting approach to the Sand Patch summit in southern Pennsylvania with an eastbound coal train in February 1953. The B&O had almost 300 F7 A and B units, in addition to FT, F3, and FP7 models.S.K. Bolton Jr. photo Coal being hauled by F7's in whatever configuration over Sand Patch. About as exciting as watching paint dry. No steam working to its limit, wheels valiantly rotating as the rods struggle to push in unison. No poetry in motion. Might as well watch a bus go by somewhere and smell the stinky exhaust. No coal smoke, valve oil and steam. Worse yet it's a poke in the eye to the coal industry. 300 boring lifeless lookalikes on the B&O. Early 1953 too! Thousands more here and coming nationwide. No crack of an articulated. No whistle. A sick cow horn the equivalent sound of passing gas. No romance, No charm. Some say, " I love the sound of 567's working a drag uphill"... gimme a break, even as a kid I knew better. I walked away. Just a stupid Diesel who cares. But yet I'll wager you've never been there... in any era. It's too bad that you feel you have to dominate discussions on both forums, maybe it's a Canuck thing.I prefered Sand Patch in the 1970s, SD's, Chessie Steam Special, and a neat swimming hole.
I don't think Miningman's tone should be generalized to all Canadians or Canadiens. The term canuck does not belong in an intelligent discussion.
NKP guyCan we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes?
I like this idea. Think I'll start it, if you don't. It would be for sharing reminiscences and thoughts, rather than familiar old philippics and rants and 'Rudolpho delenda est' comments appended to nearly every speech that this thread is good for ... in other words, the sort of things a good single-malt Scotch, or tawny port, would be good for 'helping to inspire'.
I remember some years ago a discussion here or in the magazine about not only never looking out a dutch door, but to stop publishing photos that were made that way. Imagine!
It's gone dramatically further than that in England, with the recent decision that even heritage railways have to take SPECIFIC technical action to keep anyone from leaning out of the train for any reason ... including automatic interlocks costing north of $25,000 per car to keep all the doors closed when moving.
BaltACD No. 9 would arrive Pittsbugh about 10 PM and would give you a real light show as it passed all the steel mills that inhabited the route from McKeespot to the P&LE Station at Pittsburgh. The light show of the various steel making operations had to be seen to be appreciated, especially as a 8 year old.
How true! Nothing compares!
My college roommate rode the B&O between Connellsville and Kent (O.) many times. He said in McKeesport the train didn't pass by the steel mills...it went through them. "You can see the inventory numbers on the boxes, that's how close!" I was dubious...until I took that ride myself. He was right! Through the mills!
Pittsburgh at night from the Chicago Night Express or the Washington Night Express! Mmmmmmm. That's something I'd like to see again.
Savage Tunnel But yet I'll wager you've never been there... in any era. It's too bad that you feel you have to dominate discussions on both forums, maybe it's a Canuck thing.I prefered Sand Patch in the 1970s, SD's, Chessie Steam Special, and a neat swimming hole.
Whoa get a load of this guy, what a hoser! Like take off, eh! Those are some right sour grapes indeed ya got there buddy!
I for one do not mind being branded as a "Canuck" (I do object to the Great White North being called Soviet Canuckistan) because of these guys:
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Overmod NKP guy Can we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes? I like this idea. Think I'll start it, if you don't. It would be for sharing reminiscences and thoughts, rather than familiar old philippics and rants and 'Rudolpho delenda est' comments appended to nearly every speech... the sort of thing a good single-malt Scotch, or tawny port, would be good for. I remember some years ago a discussion here or in the magazine about not only never looking out a dutch door, but to stop publishing photos that were made that way. Imagine! It's gone dramatically further than that in England, with the recent decision that even heritage railways have to take SPECIFIC technical action to keep anyone from leaning out of the train for any reason ... including automatic interlocks costing north of $25,000 per car to keep all the doors closed when moving.
NKP guy Can we have a "sour mash" forum instead of sour grapes?
I like this idea. Think I'll start it, if you don't. It would be for sharing reminiscences and thoughts, rather than familiar old philippics and rants and 'Rudolpho delenda est' comments appended to nearly every speech... the sort of thing a good single-malt Scotch, or tawny port, would be good for.
I guess life was truly cheaper back in history.
BaltACDI guess life was truly cheaper back in history.
For fun, watch this film from the same source as Victrola1's boys-and-locomotives post and see how many life-threatening things per minute you can spot. Makes you truly appreciate the importance of computer-controlled retarders, doesn't it?
zugmann Quartet of SD40-2s soving a train up the west slope in PA. Ground vibrating a mile before you see them. Yeah, steam put on a show, but diesels can move more with such elegance. Then with the push of a button they can be silent until needed again.
I see your quartet of SD40's, and raise you by eight (8) more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBPVTEx9Syw
A shame I was born too late to see that spectacle.
One of the more impressive sights I have witnessed is the thundering chug of six (6) GEVO and FDL-engined GE units (4 on the head end, 2 remotes) lugging a loaded sand train up the remote 1.6% grade of CN's Grande Cache Subdivision in western Alberta. With the mix of 12 and 16 cylinder engines the exhaust had a out-of-beat cacaphony to it, almost like doubleheaded steam locomotives.
Am I in danger of taking over this thread, just like the other Canucks on here?
I also do miss steam, but am somewhat compensated by the steam that does exist, like the UP's program, Cass, Strasberg, Steamtown, C&T, D&S, more, and even by what goes on across the pond. And for me three mu trains exchanging passsengers at Jamaica with the one in the middle acting as a bridge for those moving between the outer ones is still worth watching. So are four trains moving in or out and four stationary on the eight-track Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island under-the-traditional-trainshed (new!) staition as observed from the overhead bridge, which I hope is still tlhere!
But all this for me is via email. It's my choice, and I am willing to live with it with the additional compensations. Rode Light Rail twice alreay today, just to mail a letter at the main post office. Did I really expect to see light rail or railway electrification in my lifetime when I moved here? Maybe, just maybe, I'll even see restored steam!
Pizza (with a beer) is classic American - a perfect substitute for popcorn on this thread.
Anyhow; I got to thinking about this recently when my sister sent me photos from PA showing the removal of the classic PRR position light signals along my beloved former Middle Division. Whether it’s the result of PSR along with PTC and other advances in technology over the years; the thing that strikes me is how homogeneous and soulless railroading has become since I was a kid. Gone are cabooses, code lines, towers, railroad specific signal systems - take your pick. And I realize this is kind of a perpetual lament, no matter what era we’re discussing.
When the money changers on Wall Street finally get their way and railroads are all operated by remote control; I either hope I’m not here to see it or I can convince myself to “move on” and find something else to replace my railroad interest.
Frankly, I'm waiting for the Chapterverse to re-introduce Nelvana, as she helps Tom Evans return to to the past as head of the Canadian Assisting Steam Organization to save Canada's greatest railroad asset from destruction.
daveklepper I also do miss steam, but am somewhat compensated by the steam that does exist, like the UP's program, Cass, Strasberg, Steamtown, C&T, D&S, more, and even by what goes on across the pond. And for me three mu trains exchanging passsengers at Jamaica with the one in the middle acting as a bridge for those moving between the outer ones is still worth watching. So are four trains moving in or out and four stationary on the eight-track Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island under-the-traditional-trainshed (new!) staition as observed from the overhead bridge, which I hope is still tlhere! But all this for me is via email. It's my choice, and I am willing to live with it with the additional compensations. Rode Light Rail twice alreay today, just to mail a letter at the main post office. Did I really expect to see light rail or railway electrification in my lifetime when I moved here? Maybe, just maybe, I'll even see restored steam!
Dave, you truly are a witness to advances in passenger rail transportation in Israel. It's enviable having the contrasts between the ancient and ultra-modern.
Overmod Frankly, I'm waiting for the Chapterverse to re-introduce Nelvana, as she helps Tom Evans return to to the past as head of the Canadian Assisting Steam Organization to save Canada's greatest railroad asset from destruction.
Is there nothing you don't know!?
Forget honourary Canuck, I hereby bestow upon you full Canadian citizenship, and full membership in the C.A.S.O, which Miningman and I must get around to starting soon...
What shall we call the movie, perhaps "CASO Chapter I: Lines of Steaming Past"?
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