Commenting on a couple of posts here....
An engine does have to use power, but doesn't have to use fuel. Eli Whitney's cotton engine (commonly called the "cotton gin") used human power, but was still considered an engine.
I've never in my life heard someone pronounce "locomotive" like "loco-moi-tive", but then I live in the Midwest. Maybe it's common in New Joisey?
Re Dickens, locomotive does basically mean 'self-propelled' or 'able to move under it's own power', that's why steam engines running on tracks were called locomotives. Earlier, cars on rails had to be pulled by animal power.
BTW Dickens was a passenger on one of the earliest railway accidents in the U.K. It was doubly problematic for him because he was travelling with his girlfriend - not with his wife and kids - and had to come up with a quick cover story.
ORNHOOI am mildly surprised that none of the 43 replies to this thread have mentioned the word "unit", as in " five engines MUed (Multiple Unit; there's that word again") together constitutes a five unit locomotive".
I think that if the individual "units" were coupled with "Drawbars" then most would consider it to be as you say, "a five unit locomotive", but if they were coupled with standard couplers, then it would be "five locomotives" or "five units".
Otherwise, would a locomotive on each end of a single boxcar be considered a single unit if they were operated together as a single motive power via radio instead of cables... or if the car between was a tank for fuel for the engines? How about 2 boxcars? Or 100?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
25 years is a whole lot shorter than their last wait!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Charlie must be a Rangers fan.. oh well it's only been 25 years and patience is a virtue.
Miningman Da best! Jim Cornelison and my beloved Blackhawks We won that the Cup that year too in thrilling unbelievable fashion. 2 goals in 17 seconds, one with the net empty and only a minute to go. 2-1 Boston became 3-2 Chicago in 17 seconds. I still get weak. They say Jim's rendering of the Star Spangled Banner is good for 10 extra wins a year. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fscg_BH9R1U Been listening to the 'perilous' part and I think that's the way Overmod sings it but likely Jim's has less twang. I don't hear 'ilous' but do hear 'ulous'
Da best! Jim Cornelison and my beloved Blackhawks
We won that the Cup that year too in thrilling unbelievable fashion. 2 goals in 17 seconds, one with the net empty and only a minute to go. 2-1 Boston became 3-2 Chicago in 17 seconds. I still get weak.
They say Jim's rendering of the Star Spangled Banner is good for 10 extra wins a year.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fscg_BH9R1U
Been listening to the 'perilous' part and I think that's the way Overmod sings it but likely Jim's has less twang. I don't hear 'ilous' but do hear 'ulous'
Jim sould have retired about 2017. He often sounds quite ragged, over-blowing.
Merrill sounded great!
OK everyone, here's the Gold Standard as far as singing "The Star-Spangled Banner."
The great Robert Merrill! Everyone who's a New York Yankees fan know who HE is!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmcd0V-7SK4
THAT'S how you do it!
He could have been a ball player himself, but went into opera instead. On the other hand, he WAS an honorary Yankee, so he didn't do too badly!
By the way, have any of you heard the original 18th Century drinking song the melody comes from? Here it is, "To Anacreon in Heaven."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAIdVKv84g
Can't you just see the Founding Fathers hoisting a few in Philadelphia's City Tavern in 1776 and belting it out? If they only knew...
The choral group that my granddaughter has been with for the past couple of years (it goes away after her eighth-grade graduation or the trip to Washington, D.C., whichever comes second) sang at the beginning of the game of Peoria's professional hockey team last week. The melody was there, but there were some startling harmonies. On the other hand, Kates has done it before as a solo, and the melody is all there.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
It is wonderful to hear the Anthem sung without "interpretation" by the person sho thinks he/she knows how the melody should sound.
Granted "From Ancreon on High" (the name of the tune as it was sung many,many years ago) is not easy to sing--but it is the tune to which Francis Scott Key's poem was set for singing--but that is no reason for mutilating it because of personal whim.
When someone tried to sing the Anthem before the last national college football championship game, I did not at first recognize what the egoist was trying to sing; when I realized what he was mutilating, I turned the sound off until he had closed his mouth.
Johnny
Deggesty charlie hebdo Overmod And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'... And how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing? /ˈperÉ™lÉ™s/ or ˈper-É™-lÉ™s or per-uh-luhs or /ˈper·É™·lÉ™s/ [all quite similar, BTW] Neither. I sing "pe-ril-us." The Irishman was asked if he said "nee-ther" or "nie-ther;" he responded, "I say nay-ther." At our commeoration of Veterans' Day year before last, we sang the first verse of the Anthem to the accompaniment of a slide show which directed us to sing "what so proudly we held at the twilight's last gleaming.," and the "rocket's red glare" (as though there was only one rocket). I am sure that whoever put the slides together had never heard of Congreve's rockets, which were shot off in great numbers--or knew why the bombs burst in air--because the fuses had been cut too short before they were fired from the mortars. I really should re-read more carefully before I post.
charlie hebdo Overmod And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'... And how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing? /ˈperÉ™lÉ™s/ or ˈper-É™-lÉ™s or per-uh-luhs or /ˈper·É™·lÉ™s/ [all quite similar, BTW]
Overmod And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'...
And how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing? /ˈperÉ™lÉ™s/ or ˈper-É™-lÉ™s or per-uh-luhs or /ˈper·É™·lÉ™s/ [all quite similar, BTW]
Neither. I sing "pe-ril-us."
The Irishman was asked if he said "nee-ther" or "nie-ther;" he responded, "I say nay-ther."
At our commeoration of Veterans' Day year before last, we sang the first verse of the Anthem to the accompaniment of a slide show which directed us to sing "what so proudly we held at the twilight's last gleaming.," and the "rocket's red glare" (as though there was only one rocket). I am sure that whoever put the slides together had never heard of Congreve's rockets, which were shot off in great numbers--or knew why the bombs burst in air--because the fuses had been cut too short before they were fired from the mortars.
I really should re-read more carefully before I post.
Remember - English speaking civilizations are separated by a common language that is spoken in uncommonly different ways.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
At our commemoration of Veterans' Day year before last, we sang the first verse of the Anthem to the accompaniment of a slide show which directed us to sing "what so proudly we held at the twilight's last gleaming.," and the "rocket's red glare" (as though there was only one rocket). I am sure that whoever put the slides together had never heard of Congreve's rockets, which were shot off in great numbers--or knew why the bombs burst in air--because the fuses had been cut too short before they were fired from the mortars.
I get a little annoyed when people sing the "Star-Spangled Banner" and leave out "PLAY BALL!" after "...the home of the brave."
Tradition means nothing anymore. Sad.
charlie hebdoAnd how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing?
I sing the last syllable somewhere between a schwa and 'luhs' -- more of the UH sound and drawl if I'm self-conscious about keeping every shred of that 'lis' out!
And it is the "lis" that was Miss Pennell's problem back in 5th grade. It was one of her pet peeves, like saying "Yoo Ess" instead of United States when you hit the abbreviation. Funny how some stuff sticks with you.
OvermodAnd start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'...
EuclidAlso, as a side note, if you notice, it is common for people to call a locomotive a locomoitive. They see that “o” and “i”, and put them together like “ointment.”
That is something I quite literally have never observed, or thought about... perhaps it is so everywhere! I will have to listen more closely, now that I know it is there.
And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'...
Let me throw something else into the mix.
Ever read Dicken's "A Christmas Carol?" There's a sequence when Scrooge returns home, enters the house (this is after seeing the image of Jacob Marley in the door knocker) and sees a phantom "locomotive hearse" ascending the staircase.
I wondered just what the hell Chuckie Dickens was referring to. A hearse with Stevenson's "Rocket" laid out inside? A steam-propelled hearse? Something cobbled together by Richard Trevethick?
Turns out Dickens used the term "locomotive" in the sense of a vehicle propelled by it's own power. There were no phantom horses drawing the phantom hearse, it was moving of it's own accord.
Interesting bit of Victorian English.
I have never heard a railroad employee refer to the internal combustion machine that pulls trains as a “locomotive.” They have always referred to it as an “engine.” “Engine” is not just confined to the machine under the hood. The term is handy because it rolls off the tongue. “Locomotive” is just too much of a mouthful. Also, as a side note, if you notice, it is common for people to call a locomotive a locomoitive. They see that “o” and “i”, and put them together like “ointment.”
LithoniaOperatorYes. In two books I am currently reading, articulateds are said to have two or three engines; I think that each pair of cylinders, along with their respective drivers, rods, valve gear, etc. is one "engine."
That is standard practice when referring to reciprocating locomotives, and serves to 'disambiguate' the terms 'engine' and 'locomotive in discussions of locomotive technology. I think we have covered the importance of context in the semantics of this distinction in threads here in the past, but I bring the issue up again here. I assume one of the books you're reading is Wiener, and if I recall correctly he has a section on the use of 'engine' that covers the distinction we use.
It's much the same with the evolution of 'engine' and 'motor'. An engine, of course, could be any piece of complicated apparatus, the 'enginer' in Shakespeare certainly had little to do with steam, no matter how much he did with compressed combustion products! [Note the semantic etymological difference between 'engine' and 'machine'] Likewise a 'motor' is a device that imparts driving force, as in the old Masonic phrase 'so mote it be' (which means the same as Picard's 'make it so', for the Trekkies here. Peter will know if English boats still have motors, not engines. (And when was the last time you heard someone talk about an 'outboard engine'?)
The word in "Motor racing" is following the use I described earlier, shorthand for 'motorcar' (itself derived from self-propulsion in a far better term than the contemporary 'horseless carriage'.
Note that in reciprocating-locomotive discussions a 'motor locomotive' means something very specific: a locomotive or 'engine' in which multiple-cylinder motors drive the axles. This is more than a little by back-formation from "motor" in automotive practice, where the thing is usually integrated as a power unit whether it is steam- or combustion-gas actuated. As noted, it's an interesting convention that turbine drive of any kind is never referred to as 'motor'.
Be careful with the 'two cultures' here: locomotive people use some words very differently from the humanists on certain grammar sites...
LithoniaOperator To me, an engine is something that burns fuel, releases energy, and uses the energy to do work. Whereas a motor gets its energy from somewhere else; hence a GG1 is a "motor," as it gets its juice from the catenary. Not sure the above is technically correct, but that's how I have always thought about it. I follow auto racing. In England it is usually called "motor racing," which I think is incorrect. And our own most famous track is "Indianapolis Motor Speedway." Also incorrect? ?? Diesel locomotives have engines and (traction) motors. Having said all that, I usually refer to steamers, electrics and diesels all as railroad "engines!"
To me, an engine is something that burns fuel, releases energy, and uses the energy to do work. Whereas a motor gets its energy from somewhere else; hence a GG1 is a "motor," as it gets its juice from the catenary.
Not sure the above is technically correct, but that's how I have always thought about it.
I follow auto racing. In England it is usually called "motor racing," which I think is incorrect. And our own most famous track is "Indianapolis Motor Speedway." Also incorrect? ??
Diesel locomotives have engines and (traction) motors.
Having said all that, I usually refer to steamers, electrics and diesels all as railroad "engines!"
Still in training.
cefinkjr The question of "engine" or "locomotive" gets a little interesting in the case of articulateds which have two engines or, in the case of Triplexes (or is that Triplici?), having three engines per locomotive.
The question of "engine" or "locomotive" gets a little interesting in the case of articulateds which have two engines or, in the case of Triplexes (or is that Triplici?), having three engines per locomotive.
FWIW, a steam locomotive was originally called a "locomotive engine" which then got shortened to locomotive over time.
Very true for steam locomotives -er- reciprocating steam locomotives. In power plant parlance, steam "engine" meant a reciprocating engine, where a steam turbine was specifically called a turbine.
Technicalities aside, rule books often use "Engine" and not "Locomotive".
1962UCOR definition of "Engine" as used throughout the rulebook:
"A unit propelled by any form of energy, or a combination of such units operated from a single control, used in train or yard service."
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
NKP guyAre the terms "locomotive" and "engine" interchanable?
From the dictionary--Motive power: any power used to impart motion to machinery; any source of mechanical energy.
ChuckAllen, TX
jeffhergertWe also call the dwarf signals "pot" signals. Jeff
Jeff
Dwarf and Pot were used interchangeably during my career.
I have been told by several managers that in Canada the term "dwarf" is no longer to be used, at the risk of offending certain citizens. "Low-Mast signal" is the new name.
But I have yet to see this in writing from any official source, so it may be a joke that has taken on a life of its own.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.