The Adirondack Scenic Railroad owns zero track. The entire ROW (except the Mohawk, Adirondack & Northern - a short line) is owned and controlled by New York State, with the Scenic as the operator.
The Scenic gets to run trains in the summer. In the winter it's a snowmobile trail.
As such, the Adirondack's operations are subject to political whim. Given the pushback IP has seen with the Saratoga & North Creek, I seriously doubt that freight operations are a realistic option, no matter who the operator (which would likely be MHWA).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I think the railroad has a good case. Real restoration of both freight and passenger service to Saranak Lake and Lake Placid would be of greater benefit than any scenic trail, which would both benefit far fewer people and also make for additional danger of litter and even fire. But the railroad has to get its act together. Is it currently a common carrier or just a tourist railroad? If the latter it has to secure funding and make all the necessary moves to become a common carrier, with definite plans to develop a transloading facility and even an intermodal terminal to serve the Lake Placid - Saranac Lake area on land it owns. It will then have a case for being part of the nationwide freight network, even with its own operations confined to New York State. In that case, ripping up the tracks can be shown to be against the national interest, and the STB can intervene.
So now after ARTA has fought and convinced the State to remove the Tupper-Lake Placid tracks, they now want to remove the Thendara-Tupper tracks?
My post a year ago should have indicated that ARTA is not going to ultimately try to 'get everyone out of our woods.' No matter how many times that is said doesn't make it true.
There was no group that "fought" the restoration for the 1980 Olympics. The Adirondack Railway thought they could restore the tracks for much less that the original estimates, but ultimately they ended up with an unsafe railroad that was shut down half-way through the summer. And it was not a major part of transportation for the Olympics. The Lake Placid Olympic Museum (which has no stake in this debate) estimates 450,000 people came through Lake Placid during those two weeks. The railroad carried 4,500 according the the manager at the time.
The tracks north of Big Moose can no longer carry even an equipment move. In fact, last season the NYS DOT had to come in and fix some washouts so that snowmobiles could traverse the corridor. The snowmobilers are well aware of the problems, but have been told by DOT that they are not allowed on the corridor until December 1 when their seasonal contract starts. NYS DOT says that the ASR is the only "contractor" authorized to work on the corridor. Except that ASR isn't working on it even though they will suposedly one day be able to again run trains to Tupper Lake.
Tree 68 has confirmed that it would be about four hours to get from Utica to Tupper Lake. Add another 1-1/2 hours (including stops at Lake Clear and Saranac Lake) to get to Lake Placid, making it a 5-1/2 hour trip. Now getting to Utica by rail takes four hours from NYC and two hours from Albany making for a 7-1/2 -9-1/2 hour trip to Lake Placid. Drive time is five hours and two hours respectively from those locations. Given that most visits to Lake Placid are 2, 3 or 4-day "getaways", spending the better part of a day each way on the train is just not a service that many would ever even consider - let alone choose.
The 60-mile tourist ride to Big Moose (where there are no attractions) is by far the longest tourist ride in the East, but the railroad has only made a dozen or so fall foliage runs that far each of the past two years. ARTA has maintained from the outset that we do not want to remove the rails between Thendara and Remsen, thus preserving a 50-mile tourist ride with the option for a boat cruise on the Fulton Chain during the layover at Thendara. Some snowmobilers from south of Thendara have called for removal of the tracks all the way to Remsen. ARTA does not support this. We therefore feel this is actually a compromise - even if few others reading this would agree.
The Saranac-Lake Placid section was already in operation and in a relativly built up area for the Adirondacks. The Tupper-Big Moose section is out of service and in relative wilderness. The trail and wilderness advocates are just getting started. New York will just see the outcry against rehabing that section, and will use that as an excuse to not spend the money. Look what is happening to the Tahawas-Saratoga line.
MidlandMikeTree, why is the rail preservation president now endorsing the north end rail removal? Wasn't that your busiest section?
Can't say as I know, but I would suspect that at this point it's a matter of we'll take what we can get. Keep in mind that the "trail advocates" still want the rails gone all the way to Remsen. If we can get trains to Tupper Lake we should see the potential for the line and make it that much harder for the rail foes to advocate for further removals.
Business at the north end was steady, but on a par with the south end and Thendara.
I'm quite sure we could do a good business going all the way to Lake Placid, and I'm hopeful that having a less-famous terminus won't hurt that too badly.
During the summer of 1980 the Adirondack Railway (operator of the trains for the Olympics) logged 16,000 boardings with nothing to go on but a trip from Utica to Lake Placid. I'm sure that number could be duplicated today.
In fact, I'd opine that if it were not for reported management issues (some of which led to safety issues), ASRR wouldn't exist today, as the Adirondack Railway would still be running.
samfp1943A news release announcing the filing of an amended Unit Management Plan for the Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor did contain an unexpected portion: a quote from Adirondack Railway Preservation Society President Bill Branson, supporting the plan. The society oversees the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, which operates on the state-owned tracks. A successful lawsuit filed by ASR in 2017 prevented the previous state plan to remove the tracks from proceeding..."
Tree, why is the rail preservation president now endorsing the north end rail removal? Wasn't that your busiest section?
Lithonia OperatorIf the track was fixed, how long would it take the tourist train to get from Utica to Lake Placid? You run 30 mph tops, right?
Forty, actually, although the section from Otter Lake to Thendara needs surfacing to get it back up there. We have one section good for 45.
Getting a round trip out of one crew would be a concern - forty would easily allow that. The Central ran the line at fifty, as evidenced by the superelevation in some curves.
The scenery along the line is great, but running through at at 45 wouldn't detract from that.
It takes us one hour to Remsen on the shortline. Not likely we can improve on that.
Remsen to Tupper is 84 miles, or a little over two hours averaging 40. Factoring in a station stop in Thendara and any possible slow orders would bring that to three hours, for a total four hour trip one way. Give an hour to "turn" the train (move the motive power to the other end of the train) and we've still got an nine hour trip. Crews can only work 12 hours.
It might be desirable to hold longer in Tupper if suitable activities can be arranged, like a trip to the Wild Center.
Losing the 34 miles between Tupper and Lake Placid denies riders the opportunity to travel to Lake Placid - more of a "name" destination" than Tupper Lake.
I sure hope it can be preserved, and you can someday have trains runing there regularly.
If the track was fixed, how long would it take the tourist train to get from Utica to Lake Placid? You run 30 mph tops, right?
Lithonia Operator Is this about trackage that is north of where the trains now run? Is that track currently in useable, or nearly usable shape?
Is this about trackage that is north of where the trains now run? Is that track currently in useable, or nearly usable shape?
The out-of-service track has a speed limit of 10 MPH, and that often with a certain amount of caution...
It's good enough to ferry the equipment when necessary.
That said, what's needed all through that section is ties - probably 2000 per mile, and in some areas a considerable amount of stone ballast, as the cinders that still exist in some sections are getting tired...
My uhderstanding, from previous postings and threads, is it can be used for extremely slow equipment moves and for actual movement of people by track-speeder. Needs a lot of work. Not sure if conditions have worsened.
The new, and more important than it looks, twist is that all the 'material' lifted from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid will be available for rehab of the Remsen-Tupper route. The ARTA lie about 'scrap will pay for the trail' is gone.
We will certainly see who and what comes out of the woodwork once the first rail is lifted. As I said on RyPN, I hope their present 'transit corridor' definition holds up better than its predecessor...
tree68 The "trail advocates" still aren't happy - they want it all gone. At this point, it comes down to money and political influence. The railroad lacks both. Legal challenges are expensive and what money the railroad does have is better spent on maintenance and upgrades of the equipment. Most of the last legal challenge (which was successful) was paid for through donations. It's clear that the "trail advocates" have the governor's ear - and it's said that nothing happens in NY State unless it comes from the governor's office. Unless someone has, say, $100 million to put into rehabbing the corridor, it sounds like this will be the solution for now, and once the tracks come up, they'll never go back down again - there are plenty of groups who will ensure that. While the snowmobilers and hikers may be rejoicing, I would opine that they will soon be cursing - their much coveted trail will never happen. There are groups waiting in the wings to ensure that, too.
The "trail advocates" still aren't happy - they want it all gone.
At this point, it comes down to money and political influence. The railroad lacks both. Legal challenges are expensive and what money the railroad does have is better spent on maintenance and upgrades of the equipment. Most of the last legal challenge (which was successful) was paid for through donations.
It's clear that the "trail advocates" have the governor's ear - and it's said that nothing happens in NY State unless it comes from the governor's office.
Unless someone has, say, $100 million to put into rehabbing the corridor, it sounds like this will be the solution for now, and once the tracks come up, they'll never go back down again - there are plenty of groups who will ensure that.
While the snowmobilers and hikers may be rejoicing, I would opine that they will soon be cursing - their much coveted trail will never happen. There are groups waiting in the wings to ensure that, too.
samfp1943 Miningman Not Good News.......... Friday Dec 14 "On Friday, the agency board voted to change its land use master plan to allow, but not require, the removal of rails along part of a 119-mile, state-owned rail line between Utica and Lake Placid." https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Adirondack-rail-trail-plan-gets-revival-boost-13466987.php The following is from the above linked site by Miningman. FTL:"...This is a fix that remedies an error, and is good news that is long overdue," said Lee Keet, treasurer of the Adirondack Rail Trail Advocates, a not-for-profit advocacy group that backs the trail plan. Keet said the APA move allows the state Environmental Conservation and Transportation departments to resubmit an already-approved plan to remove some tracks for the recreational trail. DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos said the APA action will allow his agency "to improve and enhance these critical travel corridors to accommodate and support increased recreational use that will boost regional economies in a manner that is protective of this precious natural resource..." Certainly, seems as if this is a 'happy dance' by the 'trail advocacy group(?)". The whole article seems to present the side of the trail advocacy group; while giving ASR sort of a head fake, and slap to their operations(?). One thing about it, when the ASR is cut back, and the ROW 'cleared'; it will become patentlty obvious to the whole area that its loss will never be made up by the so called, trail advocates.
Miningman Not Good News.......... Friday Dec 14 "On Friday, the agency board voted to change its land use master plan to allow, but not require, the removal of rails along part of a 119-mile, state-owned rail line between Utica and Lake Placid." https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Adirondack-rail-trail-plan-gets-revival-boost-13466987.php
The following is from the above linked site by Miningman.
FTL:"...This is a fix that remedies an error, and is good news that is long overdue," said Lee Keet, treasurer of the Adirondack Rail Trail Advocates, a not-for-profit advocacy group that backs the trail plan.
Keet said the APA move allows the state Environmental Conservation and Transportation departments to resubmit an already-approved plan to remove some tracks for the recreational trail.
DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos said the APA action will allow his agency "to improve and enhance these critical travel corridors to accommodate and support increased recreational use that will boost regional economies in a manner that is protective of this precious natural resource..."
Certainly, seems as if this is a 'happy dance' by the 'trail advocacy group(?)". The whole article seems to present the side of the trail advocacy group; while giving ASR sort of a head fake, and slap to their operations(?). One thing about it, when the ASR is cut back, and the ROW 'cleared'; it will become patentlty obvious to the whole area that its loss will never be made up by the so called, trail advocates.
1. I do not wish to appear to expect to derive any economic gain thourgh my letter.
2. It was sent, with the one Dislexic spelling error, and now it is your turn to send letters, possibly also to newspapers, with your own ideas included.
Wonderful letter David, my compliments!
One thing I'd add if I were you is a mention on the acoustical and electrical engineering business you had. Governor Cuomo may have heard of it and it just may trigger a memory of you. Couldn't hurt.
Blue pencil - ARTA vs AETA in your last full paragraph.
Otherwise, it looks good.
You might consider some research into the problems the Appalachin Trail is encountering and project them onto this proposed trail as well.
Here is the letter, planjed on mailing this afternoon:
David Lloyd ben Yaacov Yehuda Klepper, student of the Yeshiva and USA Army veteran, co-author, Worship Space Acoustics, J. Ross, Publishers, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 2010, jrosspub.com, SB, MIT, '53, SM, MIT, '57. Fellow, Acoustical Society of America and Audio Engineering Society, founding member, Institute of Noise Control Engineering. Former President, Electric Railroadersm's Association and continued .member of other railroad and transit interest organizations. Former member, Executive Board, American Guild of Organist New York City Chapter, Member, Israel Acoustical Society American Legion Member
Please consider writing your own letter!
daveklepperWhich group is more likely to leave litter behind or do other damage to the environment: A group of passengers in an air-conditined train withdoors closed and fixed windows (retention johns of course) or the same number walking on a trail?
To which one might add: which group is more likely to damage or vandalize adjacent property, including theft or 'offenses to the person'?
If I were doing this, I would likely ensure that the Governor make ARTA (or whatever consortium of agencies including snowmobilers 'administers' the prospective trail) fully financially responsible for all actions arising out of the trail's construction, maintenance, operation or promotion. That certainly seems fair to me, considering that the vast majority of New York State taxpayers derive little if any positive benefit from this particular trail segment (an argument that has been, as I recall, repeatedly raised by the anti-railroad side).
I don't think the cost issues have been made entirely clear to the Governor's staff, particularly the claim repeatedly asserted by ARTA that 'the scrap will pay for much of the trail conversion'. I think it should be formalized that ARTA, and perhaps Lee Keet in particular with an enforceable PG, should be wholly responsible for the trail conversion cost above and beyond what they have forecast, and that they should be wholly responsible for negotiating the removal and conversion of railroad material and conveying the full value to the State as part of the trail construction process. That would quickly establish who is lying and who might have other agendas, I think.
I wouldn't mention freight service at all. Completely aside from the lack of prospective customers, it has all the drawbacks of current passenger operations and few, if any, of the actual advantages. At the anticipated scale, I'd suspect there are few if any actual environmental advantages to rail service with anything more than something like modified Brandt units, and (as with RailRunners) the cost and maintenance of specialized equipment would rapidly exceed any rational profit from the attempt.
Instead I would look at some of the available private options, such as installing Amazon Lockers somewhere in the consist or providing a small form of M&E on specific trips that provides some amenities both to 'locals' and to tourists in the area whether or not they ride the train. Those represent a 'leveraging' of the train service at tolerable and controllable marginal cost.
So I should not mention the possibility of freight service in my letter to the Gov.?
But here is a question: Which group is more likely to leave litter behind or do other damage to the environment: A group of passengers in an air-conditined train withdoors closed and fixed windows (retention johns of course) or the same number walking on a trail?
daveklepperFurther is there a possiblity of a shipper that woiuld make use of freight service?
About the only outgoing industry in the Adirondacks is forest products - and I'm not sure there's enough business there for any significant traffic.
Incoming would chiefly be consumer goods, and then mostly fuel. Again, I suspect there's no one commodity that would warrant car load service, much less train load.
And I'm sure that shipping hazmat through the forest would encounter enormous opposition.
daveklepper I do wonder if some compromise is possible. Air-onditioned coaches with sealed windows and a prohibition of discarding anything while passing throiugh the protected area might be one idea. Special noise midigation for the locomotives and some way to avoid whistle blowing. Furtherk is there a possiblity of a shipper that woiuld make use of freight service?
I do wonder if some compromise is possible.
Air-onditioned coaches with sealed windows and a prohibition of discarding anything while passing throiugh the protected area might be one idea.
Special noise midigation for the locomotives and some way to avoid whistle blowing.
Furtherk is there a possiblity of a shipper that woiuld make use of freight service?
I have been in the area and seen their trains, and I don't think a "quiet Zone" would be practical, as most of the crossings are unprotected or don't have gates. Sadly, I can't think of a shipper, in Saranac Lake you can see the remains of old spurs to local industries.
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
Sure, you can quote it.
Can I quote your entire posting as an example of the reputation he is leaving behind, annonomously, of course.
I do not define myself as a member of the Dem. Party. But I do plan to include the 1955 NYTimes obit of my Dad who workd hard for the Dems.
I will simply state that if the rails are lifted, your evaluation is the one that will prvail in Israel. That I can surely effect, because it is a very very clear case of special intersts vs the common good.
If you don't want an exact quote, I can paraphrase it.
The area does need rail service. And to define a trail as transportation is a lie. It is recreation, not transportation. There is enough lieing in politics and diplomacy withou this addition.
Lee Keet is the co-founder of the Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates (ARTA) and is believed to be the primary source of money for this battle. He's very wealthy, spends part of each year in the Saranac Lake area, and apparently doesn't like the sound of air horns or the tourists that it brings to town.
He's also accused of lining the pockets of a variety of local politicians to get them on board with his plan, getting them to ignore the interests of the small businesses along the Adirondack Scenic Railroad and their other constituencies.
And I really wouldn't bother writing to the governor about this. He's on ARTA's side and is the individual that is currently leading the most corrupt government in the history of New York State. Heck, he even shut down his own Commission to Investigate Public Corruption when it was getting too close for comfort.
He's on ARTA's side as long as they keep paying more than the opposition does. And as far as I know, the Adirondack Scenic Railroad lacks a wealthy multi-millionaire willing to outbid the opposition for Cuomo's support.
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