tree68 Euclid If the signal is clear in ABS, does the train not have authority to occupy track beyond the signal? Does signal indication not convey authority for movment in ABS? If so, what does convey authority for trains to pass clear signals in ABS? A track warrant conveys authority in that situation. The signals simply indicate the occupancy status of the tracks ahead. If you look back at the rule cites on passing a stop signal in ABS territory, you'll note that the dispatcher can only give permission to pass a stop signal if the train already has authority on the track past the signal.
Euclid If the signal is clear in ABS, does the train not have authority to occupy track beyond the signal? Does signal indication not convey authority for movment in ABS? If so, what does convey authority for trains to pass clear signals in ABS?
A track warrant conveys authority in that situation. The signals simply indicate the occupancy status of the tracks ahead.
If you look back at the rule cites on passing a stop signal in ABS territory, you'll note that the dispatcher can only give permission to pass a stop signal if the train already has authority on the track past the signal.
Okay, I see the distinction. If a train has a track warrant conveying authority, and an ABS displays stop, does the stop indication suspend or override the track authority conveyed by the warrant?
Angela Pusztai-PasternakPlease keep this to friendly conversations about railroading and not nitpicking one another about language usage. Happy Fri-Yay! Ang
Thanks.
Where have you been when ranting and raving about Southwest airlines customer service and other side related issues were going on.
For instance the tragedy of two crewmembers who died at Casey were discussed on a thread that degenerated into getting drunk and playing whack a mole.
When i brought up that disgrace, I was told to go start my own "serious thread" if i was offended. Seriously? endmrw0309180909
Angela Pusztai-Pasternak, Production Editor, Trains Magazine
EuclidIf the signal is clear in ABS, does the train not have authority to occupy track beyond the signal? Does signal indication not convey authority for movment in ABS? If so, what does convey authority for trains to pass clear signals in ABS?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD tree68 jeffhergert Notice the word AUTHORITY is used. And in black and white. I do notice, however, that as opposed to the ABS rules, there is no mention of the train involved having to have authority to occupy the track beyond the signal in question, only that there be no conflicting movements, switches are aligned, etc. The signal notwithstanding, how does a train in CTC territory gain the authority to occupy a given stretch of track? In CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement.
tree68 jeffhergert Notice the word AUTHORITY is used. And in black and white. I do notice, however, that as opposed to the ABS rules, there is no mention of the train involved having to have authority to occupy the track beyond the signal in question, only that there be no conflicting movements, switches are aligned, etc. The signal notwithstanding, how does a train in CTC territory gain the authority to occupy a given stretch of track?
jeffhergert Notice the word AUTHORITY is used.
And in black and white.
I do notice, however, that as opposed to the ABS rules, there is no mention of the train involved having to have authority to occupy the track beyond the signal in question, only that there be no conflicting movements, switches are aligned, etc.
The signal notwithstanding, how does a train in CTC territory gain the authority to occupy a given stretch of track?
In CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement.
If the signal is clear in ABS, does the train not have authority to occupy track beyond the signal? Does signal indication not convey authority for movment in ABS? If so, what does convey authority for trains to pass clear signals in ABS?
Not splitting hairs.
In the case of CTC, where the signal indication grants authority to occupy the track beyond the signal, a signal that can't/won't clear (as Jeff notes) requires the dispatcher to orally do so (give permission), thus conferring authority to a train. No sense in using both terms (and potentially confusing), so authority alone is used.
While this may appear to be the same thing as talking a train past a stop signal in ABS, it is not, as with ABS the train already has authority on the track beyond the signal but needs assistance (permission) to pass that signal.
Hence the difference between the use of the two terms.
The fact that we (as a whole) focused for a while on the passing a stop signal angle vs the CTC angle speaks to the confusion amongst us all. But that may have been a good thing, as it did nicely illustrate the difference between the two.
tree68 Cotton Belt MP104 Was I the source of the confusion? Not really - what got lost in the discussion was the difference between ABS and CTC and that it was a factor.
Cotton Belt MP104
Was I the source of the confusion?
Not really - what got lost in the discussion was the difference between ABS and CTC and that it was a factor.
tree68 BaltACD In CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement. Well, there you go, then. That was the source of the confusion.
BaltACD In CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement.
Well, there you go, then. That was the source of the confusion.
Except when the signal is at Stop and can't or won't be allowed to be cleared by conditions in the field. Then you have to be verbally authorized to proceed.
CTC limits are designated in the timetable. Sidings within CTC limits are controlled sidings and are governed by CTC rules. A train must not enter or occupy any track where CTC is in effect unless a controlled signal displays a proceed indication or the control operator authorizes:
Movement past a Stop indication under Rule 9.12.1 (CTC Territory).
A train to enter track between block signals as follows: "(Train) at (location) has authority to enter (track) and proceed (direction)." After entering the track, the train is authorized to move only in the direction specified. or
Track and Time under Rule 10.3 (Track and Time).
Signal Governing Movement Over a Hand-Operated Switch
If a signal governs movement over a hand-operated switch that is not electrically locked, the control operator must authorize the train to enter or occupy any track where CTC is in effect before the switch is opened. After the switch is opened, if the signal does not display a proceed indication, a crew member must wait 10 minutes at the switch. After the 10 minute wait if the signal does not display a proceed indication, move the train at restricted speed and notify the control operator.
However, if the block to be entered is occupied by its own standing train or when the hand-operated switch remains open, the movement may, after stopping, pass an absolute signal displaying a Stop indication without waiting 10 minutes and without contacting the control operator.
Jeff
I use the code frequently .. great for google maps
I use the 'Share or Embed' option to get a link
<iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed ....
And then I hit the <> (source code) button and paste it in at the end.
Just look up "BBcode" for the syntax. A surprising number of the tags work here.
Part of the great mobile-site crap-up is that selecting part of the text in a reply doesn't always 'take' on an iPhone ... just goes ahead and pastes the whole quote. This promptly combines with the improper implementation of keyboard codes when backspace-deleting and the poor method of selecting text past the tiny visible edit window to make attempts at quoting suck pretty badly.
Sometimes I'll use the quote tags themselves if I want to bring in several quotes from different posts, or perhaps just another section from the same post I'm quoting. Forum code is similar to HTML, but uses brackets [] instead of the less than < and greater than > signs. Seems like there used to be a key here somewhere, but I haven't looked for it in a long time.
Just using quote and /quote will set what's between them apart. If you want to get fancy, or are quoting different people in the same post, you'll want to add the 'user="Name"' as well. What you end up with in your post looks like what follows, except you'll use [ and ] instead of { and }
{quote user="Name"}Quoted text here.{/quote}
Which will end up looking like this:
NameQuoted text here.
As Balt says, the quote function will usually add a few blank lines between the quoted text and the end tag. I also generally delete those lines, which results in a little less white space. It also ensures that I know where my cursor is.
As noted, what usually gets people in trouble is not ensuring that the cursor is after the /quote tag. Then you're left to figure out which part is the quote and which part is their contribution.
BaltACD Method I have been using for quoting - Write my screed. Move cursor to start of my screed. Hit Enter, which adds a couple of lines above what I have written. (If what has been written EXCEEDS the view of the writing window - use the UP key to get you viewing position to the actual cursor position). Hit the 'Add Quote to your Post' button. Note - when you quote, the system will add blank lines - for the most part I go through the combined resulting post and remove as many as possible.
Method I have been using for quoting - Write my screed. Move cursor to start of my screed. Hit Enter, which adds a couple of lines above what I have written. (If what has been written EXCEEDS the view of the writing window - use the UP key to get you viewing position to the actual cursor position). Hit the 'Add Quote to your Post' button.
Note - when you quote, the system will add blank lines - for the most part I go through the combined resulting post and remove as many as possible.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
[quote user="Cotton Belt MP104"]
What is happening is that sometimes when you hit "Add quote to your post", it leaves the cursor located right after the first designation of quote rather than the last designation.
Often, when you then see your cursor after the first
, the actual quote text is not showing in the composition box. So, thinking that your cursor is following the quote text, you begin to type your message text. But the message text is actually following the first so it ends up appearing to be part of your quote when you post. I have had this happen frequently during the last few weeks, and have gone back to edit and correct the problem in many posts. I am not sure, but I believe this has happened only when using IE. In any case, now when selecting for a quote, I always scroll to check where the cursor is left and make sure it is following the quoted text. thanks endmrw0306182210
so it ends up appearing to be part of your quote when you post. I have had this happen frequently during the last few weeks, and have gone back to edit and correct the problem in many posts. I am not sure, but I believe this has happened only when using IE. In any case, now when selecting for a quote, I always scroll to check where the cursor is left and make sure it is following the quoted text.
I have had this happen frequently during the last few weeks, and have gone back to edit and correct the problem in many posts. I am not sure, but I believe this has happened only when using IE. In any case, now when selecting for a quote, I always scroll to check where the cursor is left and make sure it is following the quoted text.
thanks endmrw0306182210
Test. Conclusion> I think something is ginked up in the quoting function.
Cotton Belt MP104Was I the source of the confusion?
[quote user="Euclid"]
What is happening is that sometimes when you hit "Add quote to your post", it leaves the cursor located right after the first designation of [quote] rather than the last designation.
Often, when you then see your cursor after the first [quote], the actual quote text is not showing in the composition box. So, thinking that your cursor is following the quote text, you begin to type your message text. But the message text is actually following the first
BaltACDIn CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement.
jeffhergertNotice the word AUTHORITY is used.
tree68 OK, I'm not under GCOR, but it wasn't hard to find the rules for UP and GCOR governing passing a stop signal. Other references not cited here indicate that a foreman can give permission through his work area. Observation: He cannot give authority, since there can generally only be one entity with authority and he holds it, but he can give permission through the area he holds the authority for. I have done this. UP Dispatcher Rules: 23.13: Stop Signal / ABS Territory Reference: GCOR 9.12.4 On single main track, before granting permission for movement to pass Stop in ABS territory the train dispatcher must: 1. Ensure that train has authority to occupy track beyond the Stop indication. 2. Ascertain no conflict of authority exists. Use verbal format: “AFTER STOPPING (engine/direction) AT (location) HAS PERMISSION TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION.” GCOR Rule 9.12.4: 9.12.4 ABS Territory At a signal displaying a Stop indication outside interlocking limits, the train will be governed as follows: A. Main Track On a main track, after stopping, a train authorized beyond the signal must comply with one of the following procedures: If authority beyond the signal is joint with other trains or employees, proceed at restricted speed.or Proceed at restricted speed when a crew member has contacted the train dispatcher and obtained permission to pass the Stop indication. However, if the train dispatcher cannot be contacted, move 100 feet past the signal, wait 5 minutes, then proceed at restricted speed. B. Siding or Other Track If the signal governs movements from a siding or other track to the main track, comply with Rule 9.17 (Entering Main Track at Hand-Operated or Spring Switch). There is clearly a difference between authority and permission.
OK, I'm not under GCOR, but it wasn't hard to find the rules for UP and GCOR governing passing a stop signal. Other references not cited here indicate that a foreman can give permission through his work area.
Observation: He cannot give authority, since there can generally only be one entity with authority and he holds it, but he can give permission through the area he holds the authority for. I have done this.
UP Dispatcher Rules:
23.13: Stop Signal / ABS Territory Reference: GCOR 9.12.4 On single main track, before granting permission for movement to pass Stop in ABS territory the train dispatcher must: 1. Ensure that train has authority to occupy track beyond the Stop indication. 2. Ascertain no conflict of authority exists. Use verbal format: “AFTER STOPPING (engine/direction) AT (location) HAS PERMISSION TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION.”
Reference: GCOR 9.12.4
On single main track, before granting permission for movement to pass Stop in ABS territory the train dispatcher must:
1. Ensure that train has authority to occupy track beyond the Stop indication.
2. Ascertain no conflict of authority exists.
Use verbal format: “AFTER STOPPING (engine/direction) AT (location) HAS PERMISSION TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION.”
GCOR Rule 9.12.4:
9.12.4 ABS Territory At a signal displaying a Stop indication outside interlocking limits, the train will be governed as follows: A. Main Track On a main track, after stopping, a train authorized beyond the signal must comply with one of the following procedures: If authority beyond the signal is joint with other trains or employees, proceed at restricted speed.or Proceed at restricted speed when a crew member has contacted the train dispatcher and obtained permission to pass the Stop indication. However, if the train dispatcher cannot be contacted, move 100 feet past the signal, wait 5 minutes, then proceed at restricted speed. B. Siding or Other Track If the signal governs movements from a siding or other track to the main track, comply with Rule 9.17 (Entering Main Track at Hand-Operated or Spring Switch).
At a signal displaying a Stop indication outside interlocking limits, the train will be governed as follows:
A. Main Track
On a main track, after stopping, a train authorized beyond the signal must comply with one of the following procedures:
If the signal governs movements from a siding or other track to the main track, comply with Rule 9.17 (Entering Main Track at Hand-Operated or Spring Switch).
There is clearly a difference between authority and permission.
If you will note, both rules say ABS AUTOMATIC BLOCK SYSTEM territory.
This is for CTC CENTRALIZED TRAFFIC CONTROL territory.
Rule Ref: GCOR 9.12.1, 9.12.2, and 9.13
Before verbally authorizing a train by a Stop Indication, the Control Operator must ascertain the position of the switch: Note: A power-operated derail is a dual controlled switch. "Switch(es)" referenced in 23.10, also apply to power-operated derails, where applicable.
If the switches show to be lined and locked for the intended route, apply Paragraph A.
If the switches are not lined and locked (out of correspondence), apply Paragraph B.
A. Stop Indication Where Dual Control Switches Show to Be Lined and Locked for Intended Route or Where There Are No Switches.
Before authorizing a train to proceed past Stop indication, the dispatcher must know that:
• The crew has signal aspect in view
• There are no conflicting movements
• Blocking Mechanism has been applied to prevent unauthorized movement into the protected area
• The affected switch(es) are lined for the intended route by requested signal or OS Block applied
• The affected switch(es) are locked by a Switch Block • All train dispatchers or control operators, including foreign railroads, controlling any signaled route within a manual interlocking, have been contacted to determine that no conflicting movements have been or will be authorized • If in PTC territory, the Enter/Pass Authority (EPA) function is used
Use verbal format:
"AFTER STOPPING, (Train ID) AT (location) HAS AUTHORITY TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION." (Add: Route and Direction if more than one route is available)
Removal of blocking mechanisms:
Notice the word AUTHORITY is used.
Often, when you then see your cursor after the first [quote], the actual quote text is not showing in the composition box. So, thinking that your cursor is following the quote text, you begin to type your message text. But the message text is actually following the first [quote] so it ends up appearing to be part of your quote when you post.
[quote user="Murphy Siding"]
Cotton Belt- We’re having trouble following how things are quoted on this thread. Here’s a quick tutorial. Can you practice it once? Please use this post as your guinea pig. Here’s what you do: *Hit REPLY button *Hit Add quote to your post The post you’re quoting will show up in the reply box down below *Scroll to the bottom of the reply box *Click to the right of [/quote} *Write your comment *Click SUBMIT to post.
[/quote] Finished product should look like this.
Cotton Belt- We’re having trouble following how things are quoted on this thread. Here’s a quick tutorial. Can you practice it once? Please use this post as your guinea pig. Here’s what you do: *Hit REPLY button *Hit Add quote to your post The post you’re quoting will show up in the reply box down below *Scroll to the bottom of the reply box *Click to the right of [/quote] *Write your comment *Click SUBMIT to post.
Cotton Belt MP104Discussion is great, but contridicting what is and is not ......that is not discussion. upset naw, just slightly irritated that some are so insistent that their way is the only way. I have been recited to by the definitions of authority versis permission and cited by the rules of the railroads that they are familiar with. Fine, but to say what I heard is false and I am misleading. Slightly irritating. I will be very cautious to ever again use the word fired for suspension. Although a retired conductor friend used it last night in a railroad chat. endmrw0306182022
Fine. I don't know why you're getting so irritated about it. I wasn't even going to repsond, but you kept quoting my posts for some reason.
I don't think anyone on here said their way is the only way, either.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Well said, Larry.
May the two words never be conflated, as "can" is often used when asking permission. I was taught that "can" meant "ability," and "may" meant "permission"--two quite different meanings.
Johnny
Cotton Belt MP104I'm beginning to wonder if there is any recognition of RR's west of the Mississippi?
Cut and paste quotes of UP dispatcher rules and GCOR isn't recognition?
Both plainly state that there is a difference.
I will acknowledge that there are some who may conflate "authority" and "permission."
About the only significant difference between the rules used by the various railroads are the paragraph numbers. And so far, four recognized rulebooks have shown there to be a difference between the two terms.
I missed the fact that you were quoting Jeff because I'm used to dealing with properly formatted quotes.
And I don't think what we're saying conflicts with what Jeff wrote.
In fact, in the paragraph Jeff wrote after the one you quoted, he said:
jhegertThere are times disatchers give permission. One is to pass a Stop signal in ABS/TWC territory where you have a track warrant in effect to proceed beyond the signal. In this case they give permission to pass because your track warrant is your authority. Other times permission is used is to change directions in a control point or make back up moves. In these cases you already have authority to occupy a main or controlled track, but are being permitted to do something within that authority.
And that is exactly what I've been trying to point out.
Something we're missing here is context. If a train only has authority to a given point (control point/signal/interlocking), then they do need authority to go beyond that point (as specified in the UP dispatcher rules). Thus the dispatcher would not only have to give them permission to pass said signal (if it won't clear to a less restricting aspect), but authority to occupy the track beyond it.
If all you're hearing is the local chatter, you won't know what authority a given train had up to that point.
Oh - as for insisting that "our" way is the only way - "our" way is the rules we have to operate under. We really don't have any other choice.
If you'd like to quote, chapter and verse, the rules that back up what you're insisting on, I'm sure we'd love to see it.
zugmann I don't know why you're getting so upset about discussion. It's kind of what this site is about.
I don't know why you're getting so upset about discussion. It's kind of what this site is about.
Discussion is great, but contridicting what is and is not ......that is not discussion. upset naw, just slightly irritated that some are so insistent that their way is the only way. I have been recited to by the definitions of authority versis permission and cited by the rules of the railroads that they are familiar with. Fine, but to say what I heard is false and I am misleading. Slightly irritating. I will be very cautious to ever again use the word fired for suspension. Although a retired conductor friend used it last night in a railroad chat. endmrw0306182022
n012944 Cotton Belt MP104 n012944 Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is. NO ARGUEMENT, BUT I THINK WHAT I HEARD WAS ON ANOTHER RAILROAD mrw 2. That said, I do not argue with what happens elsewhere. BE CAREFUL THE ABOVE #2 IS IN REFERENCE TO .....ANOTHER RAILROAD......NOT MINE You did, and that is what I took exception to. BE CAREFUL, YOU THOUGHT, WHAT YOU WANTED TO THINK, BUT MY USE OF THE WORD "ELSEWHERE" .......IN CONTEXT...... REFERS TO OTHER RAILROADS When you started arguing what happens outside of railroading, ie when you stated an emergancy vehicle has authority not permission to disregard a red light, you drew a line in the sand. As pointed out by others, that line is not there. FOR THE MOMENT LET'S DELAY THE EMERGENCY VEHICLE SITUATION AND PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE STATEMENT BELOW I WILL HIGHLIGHT THE PART THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME I completely agree that GCOR uses authority, ....... WOW THAT IS SOME STATEMENT mrw however CSX, .......... PARDON ME BUT MY COMMENTS WERE CLEARLY STATED AS .......NOT...... BEING IN CSX TERRITORY mrw and according to Zugman the railroad with little ponies on the side of their locomotive uses permission. One thing about railroad rule books, they all might all use different words, but they pretty much say the same thing. IF THEY PRETTY MUCH SAY THE SAME THING ........WHY PRAY TELL HAS THERE BEEN SUCH A COMMOTION OVER WHAT I HEARD SAID endmrw0306182007
n012944 Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is. NO ARGUEMENT, BUT I THINK WHAT I HEARD WAS ON ANOTHER RAILROAD mrw 2. That said, I do not argue with what happens elsewhere. BE CAREFUL THE ABOVE #2 IS IN REFERENCE TO .....ANOTHER RAILROAD......NOT MINE You did, and that is what I took exception to. BE CAREFUL, YOU THOUGHT, WHAT YOU WANTED TO THINK, BUT MY USE OF THE WORD "ELSEWHERE" .......IN CONTEXT...... REFERS TO OTHER RAILROADS When you started arguing what happens outside of railroading, ie when you stated an emergancy vehicle has authority not permission to disregard a red light, you drew a line in the sand. As pointed out by others, that line is not there.
n012944 Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is. NO ARGUEMENT, BUT I THINK WHAT I HEARD WAS ON ANOTHER RAILROAD mrw
Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is.
2. That said, I do not argue with what happens elsewhere.
BE CAREFUL THE ABOVE #2 IS IN REFERENCE TO .....ANOTHER RAILROAD......NOT MINE
FOR THE MOMENT LET'S DELAY THE EMERGENCY VEHICLE SITUATION
AND PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE STATEMENT BELOW I WILL HIGHLIGHT THE PART THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME
I completely agree that GCOR uses authority, ....... WOW THAT IS SOME STATEMENT mrw
however CSX, .......... PARDON ME BUT MY COMMENTS WERE CLEARLY STATED AS .......NOT...... BEING IN CSX TERRITORY mrw
and according to Zugman the railroad with little ponies on the side of their locomotive uses permission. One thing about railroad rule books, they all might all use different words, but they pretty much say the same thing.
IF THEY PRETTY MUCH SAY THE SAME THING ........WHY PRAY TELL HAS THERE BEEN SUCH A COMMOTION OVER WHAT I HEARD SAID endmrw0306182007
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