Convicted One Cotton Belt MP104 NO, the rule was for the unauthorized running of a train on a block of territory, they only needed a hundred feet of that block, BUT that has been my WHOLE point of the post .........rules are rules, they didn't think about it before making the move, of course they should have .. Okay so what would have been the right thing for this crew to have done? Refuse to turn the train around and force the railroad to send out a qualified crew to negotiate the wye? I'm sure that would have impressed the officials orchestrating the re-enactment.
Cotton Belt MP104 NO, the rule was for the unauthorized running of a train on a block of territory, they only needed a hundred feet of that block, BUT that has been my WHOLE point of the post .........rules are rules, they didn't think about it before making the move, of course they should have ..
Okay so what would have been the right thing for this crew to have done? Refuse to turn the train around and force the railroad to send out a qualified crew to negotiate the wye?
I'm sure that would have impressed the officials orchestrating the re-enactment.
That happens more often than you would think. CMS calls a crew, giving minimal if not outright wrong information. Crew shows up and realizes they aren't qualified for the route intendend for the job. Notify the dispatcher or local on-duty management. Usually this happens when something out of the ordinary trains or jobs are run, especially if boards are depleted.
I looked at the timetable for that area. The main route through Brinkley (exSSW) is CTC. The line from Brinkley to Memphis (exRI) is ABS/TWC. Just from looking at the TT, to turn an engine it seems you would need a track warrant to use a portion of the wye, one leg being the main track to Memphis. Because it is a junction point on territory they were qualified on, I'm not sure they could refuse on the grounds of not being qualified or familiar. Maybe they couldn't take a train to Memphis, or even the next siding east of Brinkley, but could turn an engine on the wye. That's why one carries timetables and subdivision general orders for all lines, even auxilary ones, to the territory you normally run. So you can check what authorizations you may need.
Jeff
jeffhergertJust from looking at the TT, to turn an engine it seems you would need a track warrant to use a portion of the wye, one leg being the main track to Memphis. Because it is a junction point on territory they were qualified on, I'm not sure they could refuse on the grounds of not being qualified or familiar. Maybe they couldn't take a train to Memphis, or even the next siding east of Brinkley, but could turn an engine on the wye
Okay, thanks!! Your reply makes the most sense out of all of this.
Convicted One jeffhergert Just from looking at the TT, to turn an engine it seems you would need a track warrant to use a portion of the wye, one leg being the main track to Memphis. Because it is a junction point on territory they were qualified on, I'm not sure they could refuse on the grounds of not being qualified or familiar. Maybe they couldn't take a train to Memphis, or even the next siding east of Brinkley, but could turn an engine on the wye Okay, thanks!! Your reply makes the most sense out of all of this.
jeffhergert Just from looking at the TT, to turn an engine it seems you would need a track warrant to use a portion of the wye, one leg being the main track to Memphis. Because it is a junction point on territory they were qualified on, I'm not sure they could refuse on the grounds of not being qualified or familiar. Maybe they couldn't take a train to Memphis, or even the next siding east of Brinkley, but could turn an engine on the wye
thanks guys for your interest and insight of the situation i observed......next Wednesday I hope to see the "fireman" involved in the situation. I will certainly ask several questions of him. btw scared me when i saw TT until i realized it was timetable and not the symbol for turntable. i thought dang, i didn't think they had a turntable there.....more update later endmrw0304181340
Questions? Anyone add to the list?
Tomorrow i hope to meet the fireman mentioned in my original post. I will ask:
a. when you guys got called to go to the job, who called you to perform the reenactment?
b. did that person realize the need for turning the engine on track that you all were not certified/qualified to run on?
c. did you feel (afterwards) that you were set up? i.e. if they knew of the non certification, were they trying to see if a violation of rules would happen
d. who actually suspended you?
e. how quickly into the move did cesation of the reenactment occur?
f. what was the reason given for suspension?
g. when at the wye, what could have been done to preclude the suspension?
h. would there have been such a thing as asking the dispatch for "permission" to make the move, knowing, conceding, the crew was not certified to operate on that block? Not "authority" to occupy the block, but instead permission to advance only to accomplish the turn around
i. as a fireman, have you ever shoveled coal into a steam engine firebox?
anyone? endmrw0305182111
oooops meeting is hopefully Wednesday reference see below post endmrw0305182202
[quote user="zugmann"]
For us, it's permission by a stop signal. Written in black and white in my rule books. Maybe other rule books say differently.
I believe we use Authority instead of permission because our rules for CTC (and applies also to manual interlockings) is that to be able to proceed, you have to be authorized either by signal indication or verbally. Your authorization to proceed ends at the red signal. If the signal won't come in, then they verbally authorize you to proceed.
Hope this clarifies what was observed here in UP territory endmrw0306181855
Cotton Belt MP104I believe we use Authority instead of permission because our rules for CTC (and applies also to manual interlockings) is that to be able to proceed, you have to be authorized either by signal indication or verbally. Your authorization to proceed ends at the red signal. If the signal won't come in, then they verbally authorize you to proceed.
The UP Dispatcher Rules and the GCOR that I cited both used permission when passing a stop signal. A train has to have authority on the track beyond the signal before the dispatcher can give them permission to pass the signal.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68The UP Dispatcher Rules and the GCOR that I cited both used permission when passing a stop signal. A train has to have authority on the track beyond the signal before the dispatcher can give them permission to pass the signal.
We should add out of service tracks to this mix. To go there you need permission and a copy of the authority.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
[quote user="tree68"]
Cotton Belt MP104 I believe we use Authority instead of permission because our rules for CTC (and applies also to manual interlockings) is that to be able to proceed, you have to be authorized either by signal indication or verbally. Your authorization to proceed ends at the red signal. If the signal won't come in, then they verbally authorize you to proceed.
FOUL ......come on.....you edited what clearly was plainly a post of someone who has verified my comment and it appears he is correct in that some of you active RR guys have acknowledged his being correct. You have reposted a part of my post but do not include who actually said, ,.....what you make out to appear my words ...... why? Note:...."I believe we use Authority instead of permission......" a quote of Jeff NOT ME I'm beginning to wonder if there is any recoginition of RR's west of the Mississippi? Sure there are RR on the East but the radio talk doesn't sound the same there as here. It's really a simple, reality, as some have acknowledged ,"on our road" well this is another road. Please accept that. Who knows maybe all the dispatchers I hear on the radio are saying this wrong and violating the rules. I have only repeated what I heard endmrw0306181914....
zugmann tree68 The UP Dispatcher Rules and the GCOR that I cited both used permission when passing a stop signal. A train has to have authority on the track beyond the signal before the dispatcher can give them permission to pass the signal. We should add out of service tracks to this mix. To go there you need permission and a copy of the authority.
tree68 The UP Dispatcher Rules and the GCOR that I cited both used permission when passing a stop signal. A train has to have authority on the track beyond the signal before the dispatcher can give them permission to pass the signal.
Why add more to the mix? It is really simple, I reported what I heard, first hand and not shanty talk. Others have confirmed that this wording is used on some railroads. Maybe those who disagree are on roads that do not use the same wording that is used elsewhere. What is so hard to accept about that? endmrw0306181946
Cotton Belt MP104Why add more to the mix? It is really simple, I reported what I heard, first hand and not shanty talk. Others have confirmed that this wording is used on some railroads. Maybe those who disagree are on roads that do not use the same wording that is used elsewhere. What is so hard to accept about that? endmrw0306181946
Adding to the mix is fun.
n012944 Cotton Belt MP104 n012944 Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is. NO ARGUEMENT, BUT I THINK WHAT I HEARD WAS ON ANOTHER RAILROAD mrw 2. That said, I do not argue with what happens elsewhere. BE CAREFUL THE ABOVE #2 IS IN REFERENCE TO .....ANOTHER RAILROAD......NOT MINE You did, and that is what I took exception to. BE CAREFUL, YOU THOUGHT, WHAT YOU WANTED TO THINK, BUT MY USE OF THE WORD "ELSEWHERE" .......IN CONTEXT...... REFERS TO OTHER RAILROADS When you started arguing what happens outside of railroading, ie when you stated an emergancy vehicle has authority not permission to disregard a red light, you drew a line in the sand. As pointed out by others, that line is not there. FOR THE MOMENT LET'S DELAY THE EMERGENCY VEHICLE SITUATION AND PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE STATEMENT BELOW I WILL HIGHLIGHT THE PART THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME I completely agree that GCOR uses authority, ....... WOW THAT IS SOME STATEMENT mrw however CSX, .......... PARDON ME BUT MY COMMENTS WERE CLEARLY STATED AS .......NOT...... BEING IN CSX TERRITORY mrw and according to Zugman the railroad with little ponies on the side of their locomotive uses permission. One thing about railroad rule books, they all might all use different words, but they pretty much say the same thing. IF THEY PRETTY MUCH SAY THE SAME THING ........WHY PRAY TELL HAS THERE BEEN SUCH A COMMOTION OVER WHAT I HEARD SAID endmrw0306182007
Cotton Belt MP104
n012944 Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is. NO ARGUEMENT, BUT I THINK WHAT I HEARD WAS ON ANOTHER RAILROAD mrw 2. That said, I do not argue with what happens elsewhere. BE CAREFUL THE ABOVE #2 IS IN REFERENCE TO .....ANOTHER RAILROAD......NOT MINE You did, and that is what I took exception to. BE CAREFUL, YOU THOUGHT, WHAT YOU WANTED TO THINK, BUT MY USE OF THE WORD "ELSEWHERE" .......IN CONTEXT...... REFERS TO OTHER RAILROADS When you started arguing what happens outside of railroading, ie when you stated an emergancy vehicle has authority not permission to disregard a red light, you drew a line in the sand. As pointed out by others, that line is not there.
n012944 Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is. NO ARGUEMENT, BUT I THINK WHAT I HEARD WAS ON ANOTHER RAILROAD mrw
Both myself and Balt have quoted the script from a railroad's rulebook on talking a train by a red. The word authority is never used, permission is.
2. That said, I do not argue with what happens elsewhere.
BE CAREFUL THE ABOVE #2 IS IN REFERENCE TO .....ANOTHER RAILROAD......NOT MINE
FOR THE MOMENT LET'S DELAY THE EMERGENCY VEHICLE SITUATION
AND PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE STATEMENT BELOW I WILL HIGHLIGHT THE PART THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME
I completely agree that GCOR uses authority, ....... WOW THAT IS SOME STATEMENT mrw
however CSX, .......... PARDON ME BUT MY COMMENTS WERE CLEARLY STATED AS .......NOT...... BEING IN CSX TERRITORY mrw
and according to Zugman the railroad with little ponies on the side of their locomotive uses permission. One thing about railroad rule books, they all might all use different words, but they pretty much say the same thing.
IF THEY PRETTY MUCH SAY THE SAME THING ........WHY PRAY TELL HAS THERE BEEN SUCH A COMMOTION OVER WHAT I HEARD SAID endmrw0306182007
I don't know why you're getting so upset about discussion. It's kind of what this site is about.
zugmann I don't know why you're getting so upset about discussion. It's kind of what this site is about.
Discussion is great, but contridicting what is and is not ......that is not discussion. upset naw, just slightly irritated that some are so insistent that their way is the only way. I have been recited to by the definitions of authority versis permission and cited by the rules of the railroads that they are familiar with. Fine, but to say what I heard is false and I am misleading. Slightly irritating. I will be very cautious to ever again use the word fired for suspension. Although a retired conductor friend used it last night in a railroad chat. endmrw0306182022
Cotton Belt MP104I'm beginning to wonder if there is any recognition of RR's west of the Mississippi?
Cut and paste quotes of UP dispatcher rules and GCOR isn't recognition?
Both plainly state that there is a difference.
I will acknowledge that there are some who may conflate "authority" and "permission."
About the only significant difference between the rules used by the various railroads are the paragraph numbers. And so far, four recognized rulebooks have shown there to be a difference between the two terms.
I missed the fact that you were quoting Jeff because I'm used to dealing with properly formatted quotes.
And I don't think what we're saying conflicts with what Jeff wrote.
In fact, in the paragraph Jeff wrote after the one you quoted, he said:
jhegertThere are times disatchers give permission. One is to pass a Stop signal in ABS/TWC territory where you have a track warrant in effect to proceed beyond the signal. In this case they give permission to pass because your track warrant is your authority. Other times permission is used is to change directions in a control point or make back up moves. In these cases you already have authority to occupy a main or controlled track, but are being permitted to do something within that authority.
And that is exactly what I've been trying to point out.
Something we're missing here is context. If a train only has authority to a given point (control point/signal/interlocking), then they do need authority to go beyond that point (as specified in the UP dispatcher rules). Thus the dispatcher would not only have to give them permission to pass said signal (if it won't clear to a less restricting aspect), but authority to occupy the track beyond it.
If all you're hearing is the local chatter, you won't know what authority a given train had up to that point.
Oh - as for insisting that "our" way is the only way - "our" way is the rules we have to operate under. We really don't have any other choice.
If you'd like to quote, chapter and verse, the rules that back up what you're insisting on, I'm sure we'd love to see it.
Well said, Larry.
May the two words never be conflated, as "can" is often used when asking permission. I was taught that "can" meant "ability," and "may" meant "permission"--two quite different meanings.
Johnny
Cotton Belt MP104Discussion is great, but contridicting what is and is not ......that is not discussion. upset naw, just slightly irritated that some are so insistent that their way is the only way. I have been recited to by the definitions of authority versis permission and cited by the rules of the railroads that they are familiar with. Fine, but to say what I heard is false and I am misleading. Slightly irritating. I will be very cautious to ever again use the word fired for suspension. Although a retired conductor friend used it last night in a railroad chat. endmrw0306182022
Fine. I don't know why you're getting so irritated about it. I wasn't even going to repsond, but you kept quoting my posts for some reason.
I don't think anyone on here said their way is the only way, either.
Cotton Belt- We’re having trouble following how things are quoted on this thread. Here’s a quick tutorial. Can you practice it once? Please use this post as your guinea pig. Here’s what you do: *Hit REPLY button *Hit Add quote to your post The post you’re quoting will show up in the reply box down below *Scroll to the bottom of the reply box *Click to the right of [/quote] *Write your comment *Click SUBMIT to post.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
[quote user="Murphy Siding"]
Cotton Belt- We’re having trouble following how things are quoted on this thread. Here’s a quick tutorial. Can you practice it once? Please use this post as your guinea pig. Here’s what you do: *Hit REPLY button *Hit Add quote to your post The post you’re quoting will show up in the reply box down below *Scroll to the bottom of the reply box *Click to the right of [/quote} *Write your comment *Click SUBMIT to post.
[/quote] Finished product should look like this.
What is happening is that sometimes when you hit "Add quote to your post", it leaves the cursor located right after the first designation of [quote] rather than the last designation.
Often, when you then see your cursor after the first [quote], the actual quote text is not showing in the composition box. So, thinking that your cursor is following the quote text, you begin to type your message text. But the message text is actually following the first [quote] so it ends up appearing to be part of your quote when you post.
I have had this happen frequently during the last few weeks, and have gone back to edit and correct the problem in many posts. I am not sure, but I believe this has happened only when using IE. In any case, now when selecting for a quote, I always scroll to check where the cursor is left and make sure it is following the quoted text.
tree68 OK, I'm not under GCOR, but it wasn't hard to find the rules for UP and GCOR governing passing a stop signal. Other references not cited here indicate that a foreman can give permission through his work area. Observation: He cannot give authority, since there can generally only be one entity with authority and he holds it, but he can give permission through the area he holds the authority for. I have done this. UP Dispatcher Rules: 23.13: Stop Signal / ABS Territory Reference: GCOR 9.12.4 On single main track, before granting permission for movement to pass Stop in ABS territory the train dispatcher must: 1. Ensure that train has authority to occupy track beyond the Stop indication. 2. Ascertain no conflict of authority exists. Use verbal format: “AFTER STOPPING (engine/direction) AT (location) HAS PERMISSION TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION.” GCOR Rule 9.12.4: 9.12.4 ABS Territory At a signal displaying a Stop indication outside interlocking limits, the train will be governed as follows: A. Main Track On a main track, after stopping, a train authorized beyond the signal must comply with one of the following procedures: If authority beyond the signal is joint with other trains or employees, proceed at restricted speed.or Proceed at restricted speed when a crew member has contacted the train dispatcher and obtained permission to pass the Stop indication. However, if the train dispatcher cannot be contacted, move 100 feet past the signal, wait 5 minutes, then proceed at restricted speed. B. Siding or Other Track If the signal governs movements from a siding or other track to the main track, comply with Rule 9.17 (Entering Main Track at Hand-Operated or Spring Switch). There is clearly a difference between authority and permission.
OK, I'm not under GCOR, but it wasn't hard to find the rules for UP and GCOR governing passing a stop signal. Other references not cited here indicate that a foreman can give permission through his work area.
Observation: He cannot give authority, since there can generally only be one entity with authority and he holds it, but he can give permission through the area he holds the authority for. I have done this.
UP Dispatcher Rules:
23.13: Stop Signal / ABS Territory Reference: GCOR 9.12.4 On single main track, before granting permission for movement to pass Stop in ABS territory the train dispatcher must: 1. Ensure that train has authority to occupy track beyond the Stop indication. 2. Ascertain no conflict of authority exists. Use verbal format: “AFTER STOPPING (engine/direction) AT (location) HAS PERMISSION TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION.”
Reference: GCOR 9.12.4
On single main track, before granting permission for movement to pass Stop in ABS territory the train dispatcher must:
1. Ensure that train has authority to occupy track beyond the Stop indication.
2. Ascertain no conflict of authority exists.
Use verbal format: “AFTER STOPPING (engine/direction) AT (location) HAS PERMISSION TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION.”
GCOR Rule 9.12.4:
9.12.4 ABS Territory At a signal displaying a Stop indication outside interlocking limits, the train will be governed as follows: A. Main Track On a main track, after stopping, a train authorized beyond the signal must comply with one of the following procedures: If authority beyond the signal is joint with other trains or employees, proceed at restricted speed.or Proceed at restricted speed when a crew member has contacted the train dispatcher and obtained permission to pass the Stop indication. However, if the train dispatcher cannot be contacted, move 100 feet past the signal, wait 5 minutes, then proceed at restricted speed. B. Siding or Other Track If the signal governs movements from a siding or other track to the main track, comply with Rule 9.17 (Entering Main Track at Hand-Operated or Spring Switch).
At a signal displaying a Stop indication outside interlocking limits, the train will be governed as follows:
A. Main Track
On a main track, after stopping, a train authorized beyond the signal must comply with one of the following procedures:
If the signal governs movements from a siding or other track to the main track, comply with Rule 9.17 (Entering Main Track at Hand-Operated or Spring Switch).
There is clearly a difference between authority and permission.
If you will note, both rules say ABS AUTOMATIC BLOCK SYSTEM territory.
This is for CTC CENTRALIZED TRAFFIC CONTROL territory.
Rule Ref: GCOR 9.12.1, 9.12.2, and 9.13
Before verbally authorizing a train by a Stop Indication, the Control Operator must ascertain the position of the switch: Note: A power-operated derail is a dual controlled switch. "Switch(es)" referenced in 23.10, also apply to power-operated derails, where applicable.
If the switches show to be lined and locked for the intended route, apply Paragraph A.
If the switches are not lined and locked (out of correspondence), apply Paragraph B.
A. Stop Indication Where Dual Control Switches Show to Be Lined and Locked for Intended Route or Where There Are No Switches.
Before authorizing a train to proceed past Stop indication, the dispatcher must know that:
• The crew has signal aspect in view
• There are no conflicting movements
• Blocking Mechanism has been applied to prevent unauthorized movement into the protected area
• The affected switch(es) are lined for the intended route by requested signal or OS Block applied
• The affected switch(es) are locked by a Switch Block • All train dispatchers or control operators, including foreign railroads, controlling any signaled route within a manual interlocking, have been contacted to determine that no conflicting movements have been or will be authorized • If in PTC territory, the Enter/Pass Authority (EPA) function is used
Use verbal format:
"AFTER STOPPING, (Train ID) AT (location) HAS AUTHORITY TO PASS SIGNAL DISPLAYING STOP INDICATION." (Add: Route and Direction if more than one route is available)
Removal of blocking mechanisms:
Notice the word AUTHORITY is used.
jeffhergertNotice the word AUTHORITY is used.
And in black and white.
I do notice, however, that as opposed to the ABS rules, there is no mention of the train involved having to have authority to occupy the track beyond the signal in question, only that there be no conflicting movements, switches are aligned, etc.
The signal notwithstanding, how does a train in CTC territory gain the authority to occupy a given stretch of track?
tree68 jeffhergert Notice the word AUTHORITY is used. And in black and white. I do notice, however, that as opposed to the ABS rules, there is no mention of the train involved having to have authority to occupy the track beyond the signal in question, only that there be no conflicting movements, switches are aligned, etc. The signal notwithstanding, how does a train in CTC territory gain the authority to occupy a given stretch of track?
jeffhergert Notice the word AUTHORITY is used.
In CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDIn CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement.
Well, there you go, then. That was the source of the confusion.
[quote user="Euclid"]
Often, when you then see your cursor after the first [quote], the actual quote text is not showing in the composition box. So, thinking that your cursor is following the quote text, you begin to type your message text. But the message text is actually following the first
so it ends up appearing to be part of your quote when you post. I have had this happen frequently during the last few weeks, and have gone back to edit and correct the problem in many posts. I am not sure, but I believe this has happened only when using IE. In any case, now when selecting for a quote, I always scroll to check where the cursor is left and make sure it is following the quoted text.
thanks endmrw0306182210
tree68 BaltACD In CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement. Well, there you go, then. That was the source of the confusion.
BaltACD In CTC territory - Signal Indication conveys the Authority for movement.
Cotton Belt MP104Was I the source of the confusion?
Not really - what got lost in the discussion was the difference between ABS and CTC and that it was a factor.
[quote user="Cotton Belt MP104"]
What is happening is that sometimes when you hit "Add quote to your post", it leaves the cursor located right after the first designation of quote rather than the last designation.
Often, when you then see your cursor after the first
, the actual quote text is not showing in the composition box. So, thinking that your cursor is following the quote text, you begin to type your message text. But the message text is actually following the first so it ends up appearing to be part of your quote when you post. I have had this happen frequently during the last few weeks, and have gone back to edit and correct the problem in many posts. I am not sure, but I believe this has happened only when using IE. In any case, now when selecting for a quote, I always scroll to check where the cursor is left and make sure it is following the quoted text. thanks endmrw0306182210
Test. Conclusion> I think something is ginked up in the quoting function.
Method I have been using for quoting - Write my screed. Move cursor to start of my screed. Hit Enter, which adds a couple of lines above what I have written. (If what has been written EXCEEDS the view of the writing window - use the UP key to get you viewing position to the actual cursor position). Hit the 'Add Quote to your Post' button.
Note - when you quote, the system will add blank lines - for the most part I go through the combined resulting post and remove as many as possible.
BaltACD Method I have been using for quoting - Write my screed. Move cursor to start of my screed. Hit Enter, which adds a couple of lines above what I have written. (If what has been written EXCEEDS the view of the writing window - use the UP key to get you viewing position to the actual cursor position). Hit the 'Add Quote to your Post' button. Note - when you quote, the system will add blank lines - for the most part I go through the combined resulting post and remove as many as possible.
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