ATLANTA (AP) — One of the nation's largest railroads must replace millions of defective wooden railroad ties on its tracks because they're degrading faster than expected, the company said in a federal lawsuit.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/national/railroad-sues-over-millions-of-rail-ties-it-calls-defective/article_4723505c-7e54-5849-90bd-97eab48a1f5e.html
I am amazed that something like this has been happening to NS for the past 8 years. Didin't anyone in the field notice the differences between properly treated ties and the fakes? Didn't anyone in the mid-level of management listen to complaints from 1st level personnel. This stinks to high heaven, not only on Boatright but on NS and their inspection standards for their procurement system.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
From the news release: "Boatright also provided misleading samples to a consultant for the railroad who was checking on the quality of its work, the lawsuit alleges. The Alabama firm's employees were instructed to take the consultant out hunting at the same time he was to be inspecting railroad ties being treated at the facility, the lawsuit states."
Why did the consultant agree to go hunting when he was supposed to be inspecting the ties? It seems to me that he also is culpable in the matter.
Johnny
BaltACD I am amazed that something like this has been happening to NS for the past 8 years. Didin't anyone in the field notice the differences between properly treated ties and the fakes? Didn't anyone in the mid-level of management listen to complaints from 1st level personnel. This stinks to high heaven, not only on Boatright but on NS and their inspection standards for their procurement system.
Balt: Wonder how much of this is tied to the fact that Roanoke tells Atlanta what to do and the Roanoke beancounter tribe is more than just a little aloof. (doesn't take much to go from "lean and mean" to "starving and stupid".... The "contract it out" mentality of the operating management and the obsessive-compulsive beancounter control freaks (HHH anyone?) can certainly backfire... teachable managerial moment and a leadership fail ?) ... Hope the spreadsheet watchers at the top have a come-to-jesus moment in all of this.
Interesting. (and the newsworker's opinion and understanding of what make an effective crosstie didn't add to the hysterics here, did it?)
mudchicken Hope the spreadsheet watchers at the top have a come-to-jesus moment in all of this.
Hope the spreadsheet watchers at the top have a come-to-jesus moment in all of this.
UP has replaced concrete ties at least between Bond and Gore on the former D&SL. The work delayed me one way on a trip last month and one way on a trip this month.
Last month, I saw the plains of Wyoming again as we were detoured--and I had time in Chicago to catch up on my e-mail. Coming home, we left Chicago late and Denver much later, and I got home in time to take a shower before going to breakfast (I did dress before going down to eat).
This month, we were late leaving here--and we arrived in Chicago in time for me to catch my breath before boarding #30. Coming home, we arrived here 19 minutes early, so I had a good night's sleep in my own bed.
Both ways, I wondered at the piles of used concrete ties along the way.
mudchickenInteresting. (and the newsworker's opinion and understanding of what make an effective crosstie didn't add to the hysterics here, did it?)
Coating? I thought the process was to pressure-infuse creosote. Silly me.
So how long does an average tie last? If the substandard ones are apparently lasting 7 years and good ones last 12 then it simply takes time to discover the difference.
There's always going to be outliers in any category, some bad ties might last 15 years and some good times might only make 6 years.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
Did we hear somewhere that a new tie cost about $100 ? This law suit is going to get nasty as an award even for half life of ties will cost $50M. Bankruptcy will quickly follow ? Probably Wick is going to be called by Boatright ?
What other RRs may have bought ties from them ?
Will the standard of replacing one tie out of 4 really mess up things ?. Will having to replace 2 of 4 cause a long period of slow orders to guarantee proper setlement of the track to guarantee no heat kinks ?
What happened the first time somebody out in the field said "Hey Lou- shouldn't these ties smell like creosote and not like antifreeze and paint"?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
blue streak 1Did we hear somewhere that a new tie cost about $100 ? This law suit is going to get nasty as an award even for half life of ties will cost $50M. Bankruptcy will quickly follow ? Probably Wick is going to be called by Boatright ? What other RRs may have bought ties from them ? Will the standard of replacing one tie out of 4 really mess up things ?. Will having to replace 2 of 4 cause a long period of slow orders to guarantee proper setlement of the track to guarantee no heat kinks ?
From a railroad point of view, the actual cost of the tie is the smallest part of the equation - the costs associated with getting them in place and the gangs necessary to replace the defective ties with good ties are much greater.
Mudchicken has a better handle on tie life than I do, however, in 'normal stress' areas ties are expected to have a life of 30 year or more.
Whenever the track is disturbed by either tie and/or rail replacement or the operation of a surfacing gang - there are set rules that govern the implementation of speed restrictions and their progression to having the track stable for maximum authorized speed.
ruderunnerSo how long does an average tie last? If the substandard ones are apparently lasting 7 years and good ones last 12 then it simply takes time to discover the difference. There's always going to be outliers in any category, some bad ties might last 15 years and some good times might only make 6 years.
From http://www.american-rails.com/railroad-ties.html
"Througout the years crosstie technology has improved to the point that today, the common hardwood tie which has been properly treated with creosote can last at least 30-40 years before needing replaced."
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RTA Railroad Tie Association faqs
http://www.rta.org/faqs-main
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Oops!
I suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol.
Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process.
Because the chemicals react with the wood rather than merely saturate it the environmental problems associated with creosote are eliminated. At the end of its life chemically-modified wood can be burned for fuel.
Cost is the obstacle at present but as furfuryl alchohol can be produced as a by-product of the processing of crop wastes to produce bioethanol this chemical is likely to become cheaper (there is a lot of research being conducted into the production of ethanol and other chemicals from woody crop materials rather than potential foodstuffs such as corn).
IslandMan I suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol. Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process. Because the chemicals react with the wood rather than merely saturate it the environmental problems associated with creosote are eliminated. At the end of its life chemically-modified wood can be burned for fuel. Cost is the obstacle at present but as furfuryl alchohol can be produced as a by-product of the processing of crop wastes to produce bioethanol this chemical is likely to become cheaper (there is a lot of research being conducted into the production of ethanol and other chemicals from woody crop materials rather than potential foodstuffs such as corn).
Crossties and other creosoted wood are used for fuel now. This link, 2008, the latest I found shows 56% of removed ties being either gasified or direct burned in co generation power plants.
http://www.tercenter.org/pages/crossties.cfm
ruderunner BaltACD I am amazed that something like this has been happening to NS for the past 8 years. Didin't anyone in the field notice the differences between properly treated ties and the fakes? Didn't anyone in the mid-level of management listen to complaints from 1st level personnel. This stinks to high heaven, not only on Boatright but on NS and their inspection standards for their procurement system. So how long does an average tie last? If the substandard ones are apparently lasting 7 years and good ones last 12 then it simply takes time to discover the difference. There's always going to be outliers in any category, some bad ties might last 15 years and some good times might only make 6 years.
Chuck: Creosote is invasive stuff that will fill the voids under heat & pressure. The other "stuff " probably got into the outer 1/2 inch of the exposed surface as opposed to everything but the inner three inches or so on a 7" x 9" tie. Accidental splitting of ties will tell a trackman how much penetration there is plus a properly treated tie is a heck of a lot heavier.
Everybody forgets, in heavy haul main lines and at road crossings, the ballast chews up the underside of the tie with all the fractured ballast edges cutting into the tie. I've seen up to half the tie depth chewed-up on some old ties.
zardoz mudchicken Hope the spreadsheet watchers at the top have a come-to-jesus moment in all of this. Just curious: how many dollars are we talking here (both wood and concrete)?
Just curious: how many dollars are we talking here (both wood and concrete)?
I looked it up it is about 3000 ties a mile on the BNSF for their mainlines. If some vender lied about QC on a major product to my boss and then we got hammered by the DOT for it failing faster than it should oh yeah their butts would be in court with our lawyers feasting on them. The latest one that happened in my industry was Fontaine Ultra LT Fifth wheel. We had 20 of the freaking things mostly on our acid tank trucks. Then we got recall notices on all of them. Boss first went to KW ordered 20 Hollands to replace them. Out of the 20 that were recalled 10 had damage on them a 50% failure rate on trucks less than 2 year trucks and we got the recall on 2015 the trucks were all 2013 models. To call my boss very unhappy would have been the understatement of the year.
Currently Fontaine is trying to settle the lawsuit brought upon them by the widow of the drivers that were killed by this product. Trouble is their own testing showed the design was defective and they still produced it and released it.
I think so.. more than one party responsible for this "black tie" event.
Shadow the Cats owner I looked it up it is about 3000 ties a mile on the BNSF for their mainlines. If some vender lied about QC on a major product to my boss and then we got hammered by the DOT for it failing faster than it should oh yeah their butts would be in court with our lawyers feasting on them. The latest one that happened in my industry was Fontaine Ultra LT Fifth wheel. We had 20 of the freaking things mostly on our acid tank trucks. Then we got recall notices on all of them. Boss first went to KW ordered 20 Hollands to replace them. Out of the 20 that were recalled 10 had damage on them a 50% failure rate on trucks less than 2 year trucks and we got the recall on 2015 the trucks were all 2013 models. To call my boss very unhappy would have been the understatement of the year. Currently Fontaine is trying to settle the lawsuit brought upon them by the widow of the drivers that were killed by this product. Trouble is their own testing showed the design was defective and they still produced it and released it.
Ulrich BaltACD I am amazed that something like this has been happening to NS for the past 8 years. Didin't anyone in the field notice the differences between properly treated ties and the fakes? Didn't anyone in the mid-level of management listen to complaints from 1st level personnel. This stinks to high heaven, not only on Boatright but on NS and their inspection standards for their procurement system. I think so.. more than one party responsible for this "black tie" event.
mudchickenBalt: Wonder how much of this is tied to the fact that Roanoke tells Atlanta what to do and the Roanoke beancounter tribe is more than just a little aloof.
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Murphy Siding What happened the first time somebody out in the field said "Hey Lou- shouldn't these ties smell like creosote and not like antifreeze and paint"?
Infamous on the Adirondack are the green ties installed by the Adirondack Railway (ie, the Olympics version), which have, in some cases, been outlasted by good old creosote ties probably installed by the Central.
I don't know, but I suspect they were treated with something like Cuprinol.
There's a backstory there, but it's not relevant to this discussion.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
IslandManI suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol. Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process.
I don't know if this would be what you are talking about, but a few years ago I remember reading that some sort of composite tie was being tried. (Plastic-wood fiber?) What was the result of those tests?
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington I don't know if this would be what you are talking about, but a few years ago I remember reading that some sort of composite tie was being tried. (Plastic-wood fiber?) What was the result of those tests?
In 2010 NS tested composite/plastic ties. A trestle on which some were used caught fire and trapped three locomotives that were destroyed. I know the crew were burned but I don't recall their outcome.
Norm
Paul of Covington IslandMan I suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol. Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process. I don't know if this would be what you are talking about, but a few years ago I remember reading that some sort of composite tie was being tried. (Plastic-wood fiber?) What was the result of those tests?
IslandMan I suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol. Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process.
I do not remember if it was cuprinol, but when I was getting some extra work, in a lumber yard, about 25 years ago, we treated some posts with a greenish liquid--and were careful not to get any on us or spill it on our clothing.
Deggesty I do not remember if it was cuprinol, but when I was getting some extra work, in a lumber yard, about 25 years ago, we treated some posts with a greenish liquid--and were careful not to get any on us or spill it on our clothing.
Must be what we called "green creosote." We painted our fence with it back in the 1950's. When my father was repairing a fence, he dipped the end of the posts that were going into the ground in black creosote, then we painted the rest of it with green creosote.
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