CSX S&C Branch

[bbrant]

CSX Engineer -

Thanks for the info about the signals. I think that was the Gray line that split off from the S&C at the turnpike (just past the Rt. 281/Stoystown Road crossing). Unfortunately, those tracks have been torn up for years but like you said you can still see the grade from it.

The Newberry's building is on the diamond in Somerset. The address is 109 West Main Street (rt. 31). It's now part of Glades court and the club has the entire basement. There's the club layout and then about 10 or so individual layouts ranging from N to G scales. The hours are listed below.

November 23 - January 13
Fridays 3PM - 7PM
Saturdays 12PM - 6PM
Sundays 12PM - 5PM

Special Christmas hours
December 24: 11AM - 4PM
Closed December 25 and Jan 1
December 26 - 31: 11AM - 4PM

Fire & Ice Festival (Jan 14, 15, 16)
Friday and Saturday 9AM - 8PM
Sunday 9AM - 5PM

http://www.lhmrc.org

Hope you can make it.

[Modelcar]

....I started to answer some of the above questions and the wife not knowing I had a letter in progress on the forum changed to another website and bingo, it is gone...so we'll try again. First off, the tunnel just north of Somerset on the S&C takes the line under the fill of the old SOUTH PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD that was never completely finished....Maybe 60% graded when Vanderbilt gave the word to stop construction back in 1885. It would have been built from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh.

This is the approx. route the Pennsylvania Turnpike followed to construct the first 160 miles of original construction back in the late 30's and opened on Oct. 1st, 1940. The RR RoW would have used 9 tunnels and the Turnpike only used 7 in it's construction. The Quemahoning, Negro Mountain and Allegheny tunnels were not used by the Turnpike.
The first two mentioned were made large cuts to get through that area and the Allegheny tunnel had bad rock strata problems so the tunnel for the original RR was not used and a new bore was put through about 85 ft. to the south of the RR bore. In present day configuration that would be the west bound tunnel. The other bore was put through back in the 60's or early 70's to complete the 2 lanes both ways.

On signaling down the S&C...I believe none was in place after one gets just north of Somerset...past where the branch turned off near the turnpike underpass. That branch was the BOSWELL BRANCH and it wound around through Harrison, Acosta, Jenners I and II , also a branch off that then went back into Gray....{and the WM railroad had trackage rights back into Gray on that}, than on to Boswell and around back south to Raphton and swinging southeast and around several hosesshoe curves to connect back onto the S&C at Friedens...If anyone remembers the IXL Creamery at Friedens, the connection was just south of the business....Right behind it.

Back up at Somerset and where the Boswell Branch connected...The PW&S RR came down through there about where the Turnpike is now....It used the previously mentioned Quemahoming Tunnel {of the South Penn}, and part of it's partly completed RoW to gain entry into Somerset. {It stopped running about 1916}. It came up over Laural Hill Mountain from Ligonier...There connected to the Ligonier Valley RR.

Hope you fellows can follow what I'm laying out of the operation around Somerset and near by with the S&C and other connections...along with the Pa. Turnpike routing, etc...

Thanks Brian for the info on the model railroad set up on the Diamond...Sure I Know just where that is and I'm wondering if the set up is just around the holidays...? We generally visit around Memorial Day week and later in the Summer. But glad there is a set up as you mention...Hope it gets lots of visitors.

Yes, CSXengineer98, that is the old Boswell Branch one could see just to the right of the turpike as one travels west at that location.....New construction of that interchange has changed things a bit this bast Summer there....

On the continuous rail....I remember of it being laid at least from Somerset to Johnstown....I cannot speak if it was continued on to Rockwood....I'm not as familar with that section as the Somerset to Johnstown part.

[csxengineer98]

i read something about the PW&S once... not alot of info on it..i do remember something about it comeing from the LVRR to summerset... but where is the right of way for this line? any of it still visable along route 30 to jennerstown and points east?
but when you come out of the tunnel at summerset going east... what lanes would have been the right of way then? the east or west bound? i always think it would have been the east bound becouse it seemed to have just a little bit more of a genterler grade comparied to the west bound lanes...still steep as hell for cars and trucks...i can just imagin what running a train down it would have been like if the road was ever finshed
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

crap..your club isnt open on thursdays...i was going to come up tomorrow since i have the day off..but so much for that now..lol...ill see what i can do after christmas... might just come up for an afternoon...
csx engineer

[Modelcar]

...The PW&S was Pittsburgh Westmorland and Somerset....It was established right around the beginning of the 20th century. In fact it was a logging railroad for the most part but they later scheduled passenger trains between Ligonier and Somerset. It's route started east out of Ligonier and crossed the Creek just east of Ligonier and passed south of the famed large outdoor swimming pool just before you get to Laughlantown. There it made a turn towards the south and passed up near Rector and away from the Lincoln Highway...{RT. 30}. It then worked it's way towards the Laurel Hill Mountain and up the valleys until it reached the summit...comming down on the east side south of Gray and to the point several miles east of the Laurel Hill Tunnel {on the Pennsy Turnpike}, and worked it's way down and to the unused but bored through Quemahoning tunnel of the ill fated South Penn RR and on down on it's partly finished RoW...coming down parallel to the Boswell Branch that you mentioned of seeing along side of the Turnpike. It was located just about right where the Turnpike is now in that area near the interchance and then connecting to the S&C over near where the Boswell Branch connected. At one time it was possible to get on a passenger train at Somerset and head down to Johnstown or head to Pittsburgh via the PW&S and LVRR and then the Pennsylvania at Latrobe...or from Somerset head for Rockwood and points east or west on the main line of the B&O.

I heard my mother tell of riding the PW&S up and over the mountain to Ligonier...and she said some places one could get out and walk faster....It did have steep grades but I don't know for sure how steep.

On the turnpike heading east out of the Allegheny Tunnel the west bound lanes would be closer to the original route of the South Penn....The max grade on the Pennsy Turnpike is 3% and the max grade on the party constructed South Penn RR was 2% so the South Penn was a bit more circuitous in order to reach the same entries to the tunnels that were later used by the Turnpike.

You might find some info on Google if you enter: PW&S Railroad. I did have maps and a bunch of details of it's crossing of the Laurel Hill mountain. Maybe still do someplace....There is a lot of railroad history in that general area. I guess it's always been an interest of mine and I have several books covering the PW&S and South Penn. RR.

In mentioning Jennerstown {csxengineer98}, that was the location many companies located to set up automotive brake shops to do test work...and that is where my Co. set up shop with a test garage right on the west edge of Jennerstown. We did experimental work with truck automatic transmissions in the mountains all around us. I first worked for one of the brake testing Co's but went with the other for a total of 37 years....ending up at our main plant in Indiana.

[csxengineer98]

i wonder if the PW&S right of way went over the monuntin past lyn run state park and to the top of luaral ridge...... it is a steep grade up that old road...and i dont have clue why thier would be a road thier unless it was something befor the road... i use to stomp around on that road and at the top of the mountin back in the summer of 94 befor i went off to college.. spent many a night parking with my girlfriend at the time on the mountin..lol..but thats another story all together..lol....but back to the topic at hand... ill have to see what i can find online someday soon...
oh yea bbrant..if i make it up to your club over the holidays..if i can find it..ill bring up my map of the S&C sub..as well as few other old B&O things i have....got a rule book from 1922...always like to show that one off..lol
csx engineer

[bbrant]

Wow! What a list of information. I never knew the Boswell branch reconnected to the S&C in Friedens. Heck, I don't think I knew 99.9% of the information you guys (QM & csx engineer) have posted. Thanks for sharing all this good stuff. I think it's great to read all this interesting info.

About a 1 1/2 - 2 miles from where I live you can see the grade and a cut for the South Penn. This particular section runs next to the turnpike (westbound lanes) about 4 or 5 miles east of the Somerset interchange.

The funny thing about the South Penn.....Along a road (Pleasant Hill Road) that goes between Rt 31 and Rt 281, there's a place where you can see the grade for the South Penn. When I was a kid, my grandfather told me that they were going to build a railroad line there at one time. I told that to my dad and he said my grandfather didn't know what he was talking about. Guess we know who really did know what they were talking about.

Brian

[bbrant]

csx engineer -

If you can still make it today, put a post on here and I can meet you there. They do do private showings and I can meet you there. I can also give you directions on how to get there. Main street in Somerset is Rt. 31 and you seem to be familiar with that already so should be easy to find.

[Modelcar]

CSXengineer98: Too bad I don't have my actual maps in front of me showing the route of the PW&S up and over Laurel Hill but you are correct in mentioning the Linn Run. I believe it is correct to say the railroad did follow that stream up to and possibly a bit past Rector and then turn more east to climb up through available valleys. Years ago I traveled down that road possibly you are speaking of ...{at the time covered with red dog and or gravel}, and worked our way down into Rector, coming from the top of the mountain....From info I have gained some time ago I believe that road IS the old RoW in at least some of the places up through there.

One thing that is a bit confusing to me is this: Years ago I was at a picnic outing up at the top of Laurel and back in the area of where the railroad crossed a ridge road...{I'm speaking of maybe in the late 30's or early 40's...}, and as a pretty young fellow, I remember seeing an old piece of railroad track...! That had to be a remnant of the long ago abandoned PW&S...For sure no other RR was up in there.

As the line worked it's way down the east side of the mountain it connected with some of the pre graded sections of the South Penn and on down into Somerset. By the way, this was one of two places on the South Penn that the grading actually had rails installed on the RoW...albeit not South Penn rails. Another location was a short distance farther east the same situation occured and a mile or so bit of track was actually installed and used...Don't remember what for...maybe logging, but really dont' remember.

[Modelcar]

Brian: Yes, know just where you speak of the site of cuts and fill remnants of the old South Penn east of Somerset. Another good location is {perhaps the road you mentioned}, is near the County buildings up there on the ridge a bit west of the area you speak of...Cuts and fills are very visible there and of course the route goes right across 281 at the top of the hill {near Gieger}, and west of 281 is a large fill...and as we know, that is where the CSX S&C tunnel goes under it.....I have walked through that tunnel in years past....It too is stone and brick lined. Only 150 or 200 ft. in length.

[Modelcar]

...Brian: Traveling from Somerset towards Stoystown on rt. 281 as you approach Friedens...and down at the bottom of the dip there in Friedens....Look to your right as you are in the dip and you can see the Boswell Branch RoW heading over to connect on to the S&C.

[bbrant]

Quentin -

I'll have to be on the lookout for the Boswell Branch RoW next time I'm over that way - or I just might have to make a special trip to look for it. Whichever comes first. lol

I've never walked through the tunnel that goes through the fill for what would have been the South Penn. I also remember a siding in Gieger. I'm not sure where it started or ended (had to be somewhere between the tunnel and the crossing at 281/Stoystown Road). When I was a kid I used to go with my grandfather to get slip for his ceramics. He bought it at a place just up from the railroad crossing in Geiger. I would walk down to the tracks and always saw a string of coal cars sitting in the siding.

One other thing. If memory serves me correctly, the bridge that carries the road accross the S&C just at the Geiger side of the tunnel once was a railroad bridge (old B&O bridge perhaps??). Like everything else, it's gone and been replaced with a regular highway bridge. At least we still have the memories.

[bbrant]

Here's another update on the S&C.

Only two cars (both covered hoppers) were in the Somerset yard.

Was able to see a train heading to Rockwood on it's way back from Johnstown. Had all 3 units that I've been seeing in Rockwood with 2625 on the point. I offered the engineer of the train a ride from where the train was parked to the "yard office" (not sure exactly what you call it) located next to the Keystone Sub & in the middle of the S&C "Y" connection. Anyhow, he politely declined but I think he appreciated the offer.

Train arrived in Rockwood just a little before 2:00. As mentioned, there were 3 units and 21 cars - 1 flat car with posts, 4 Staley tank cars and 16 gons. Nice to see a train on the line just before Christmas! And, of course, I didn't have my camera. The CSX dispatchers seem to have a way of knowing with my camera is NOT with me!! LOL

[Modelcar]

...Brian: That is a good bit of update on stuff out of Johnstown...I'm surprised to hear of a train that size.
You mention of the old bridge just north of the tunnel near Somerset there on the S&C...well, I have a pic of it that I took some years ago and sent into TRAINS for their use and they didn't have a place for it at the time but did send back a nice 8 by 10 of what I had sent them....So, I'll see if I can find it and scan it and...send it to you in a few days.

[csxengineer98]

not so much the dispatcher as it is the crew coming on duty at rockwood... sometimes they dont get started right away due to haveing to wait on paperwork and what not... but once they get going..the railroad is all thiers...they are normaly the only ones on that branch when they do come down the line.....
csx engineer

[bbrant]

Someone seems to know when I don't have my camera with me! LOL

How do crews work the line? Like when they take a train from Rockwood to Johnstown. Once they get to J-town, do they do all the switching moves they need to and then stay overnight and bring the train back the next day? Just curious what it's like for the crews working this line. Also, does the same crew work the line or are different crews assigned to it? Would crews rather work this line as opposed to working a mainline job (such as the Keystone Sub)?

Thanks and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

[Modelcar]

Brian...I believe you have that siding at Gieger pretty well pegged for it's location....That's just about how I remembered it. Just down the line a couple of miles and just beyond Listie was a little berg..{a few houses}, named Adams. The S&C had a decent size "yard" there...4 or 5 sidings for coal hopper storage, etc....Don't know if anything is remaining of that or not. There was several mines in that area and I suppose the "yard" was necessary to spot cars to be pulled out as they accumulated and hauled to the main at Rockwood. Of course for empties supplied to the mines as well.
Just about a mile south or maybe a bit less up the track from that location is where a steamer blew up and killed the crew back about 1943....Nothing left of it but the chassis, steam cylinders, and wheels and drive rod assemblies.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

Someone seems to know when I don't have my camera with me! LOL

How do crews work the line? Like when they take a train from Rockwood to Johnstown. Once they get to J-town, do they do all the switching moves they need to and then stay overnight and bring the train back the next day? Just curious what it's like for the crews working this line. Also, does the same crew work the line or are different crews assigned to it? Would crews rather work this line as opposed to working a mainline job (such as the Keystone Sub)?

Thanks and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

the rockwood to johnstown run has a dedicated crew on it... they work from rockwood to johnstown...and turn and go back to rockwood to tie up for the day...on the days they dont go to johnstown..they go from rockwood to connelllsville and back..and tie up at rockwood at the end of the run...
the rockwood to connellsville is to drop off cars that where picked up the day befor on the S&C and taken to connellsville to be droped off..they get switched in connelllsville and put on an out going train to where ever they go after that...and in connellsville.they pick up cars that are going to places on the S&C back to rockwood
and the next day... they take the cars they brought from connellsville the day befor..and go up the branch to johnstown working the industrys on the way up and then when they come back from johnstown to rockwood...
they job use to work evey day from rockwood to johnstown with no connellsville run at all..all the cars for the S&C use to be delivered to rockwood by the Q353s and 352s...but but this was tieing up the main line to long when thiese trains has to work rockwood..so they just run them past rockwood now and all the cars for the S&C are set off in connellsville...
just goes to show you that you need to carry that camrea with you ALL the time..lol
csx engineer

[Modelcar]

...A few years ago the wife and I on our way in to Pa. from Indiana took a different route and drove down into Connellsville....Boy, that's rough territory down in that area. Makes one wonder how they ever got a railroad in and out of that site. Anyway, I had recently noted a pic. of the old depot downtown and wanted to swing by and eyeball it and take some pictures. What a neat old place....and it now is a business selling colored glass items, etc....But the tracks used to pass by that depot high in the air on a tresstle structure of which a bit of it remains but not right at the depot...Passengers used to have to climb up a stairwell from the depot to get up to track level. It is really a neat old structure and I enjoyed seeing it and it's location.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...A few years ago the wife and I on our way in to Pa. from Indiana took a different route and drove down into Connellsville....Boy, that's rough territory down in that area. Makes one wonder how they ever got a railroad in and out of that site. Anyway, I had recently noted a pic. of the old depot downtown and wanted to swing by and eyeball it and take some pictures. What a neat old place....and it now is a business selling colored glass items, etc....But the tracks used to pass by that depot high in the air on a tresstle structure of which a bit of it remains but not right at the depot...Passengers used to have to climb up a stairwell from the depot to get up to track level. It is really a neat old structure and I enjoyed seeing it and it's location.

yea i know where your at...and all of that tresstle is gone now..they riped the last part of it out that was over 119 this past summer but i think that was the old P&LE railroad...i could be wrong and it was the WM....
csx engineer

[Modelcar]

I'm not sure what RR the depot was associated with....I knew at the time but it's slipped my mind. I remember right across the street there was a remnant of one of the concrete supports that held it up and then in the other direction in the distance we could see a metal support structure still there at that time...That was oh...about 5 years ago....I couldn't tell if there was an elevator in the stairwell shaft or not...That would have been quite a climb up to the track level from the depot floor....But it sure is a nice old typical brick railroad structure with the big roof overhang, etc....Real railroad ambience.

[Modelcar]

...Brian: If you have any interest to seek out the old Boswell Branch RoW there northwest of Friedens it is easy to find and see...Plenty of it still visible. If so, travel northwest {turn left off 281}, on a street right before you get to that dip I spoke of there in Friedens and work your way back the county road..{you can come out over by Jenners or work your way to Stoystown on that route}. Anyway, just a few miles back that road you will come to an area that has about...4 horseshoe curves on the old Boswell route....One place the RoW crosses the road your traveling on and recrosses it again in just a cople hundred feet again...It goes out and makes a big horse shoe turn to gain maybe 20' ft. in elevation and so on....If you have ever used the website Terraserver.com you could bring up the area in an aerial photo and see how those horseshoe curves wrap around those hills back in there and they would be easier to find then....If you have interest in that there is lots to see back in there...Even one old brick and stone arch that carried the route over a stream...and positioned about in the center of one of the hoseshoes...The next town on the RoW headed that way was Ralphton and then on to Bosewell crossing the Lincoln highway about where the new 219 and the Chevrolet dealer are located now and continues north there and swings in a big curve around the north side of Boswell and skirts the west side and follows close to the road that leads past the Boswell Lunber Co...{Guess that's still there}, and then heads up through Jenners 1 and so on......Very interesting back in there for a railfan interested in such layouts of rail right of way.
That route was removed in the mid 40's. I can remember seeing a steam engine cross 281 there in the dip I spoke of at Friedens....Oh, and there were passenger trains on that route at one time too...!
Merry Christmas.

[bbrant]

CSXEngineer -

First off, hope you & your family had a merry Christmas.

Thanks for posting the info on how crews work the S&C. In October of '98 I was getting some pics of trains on the west side of Sandpatch grade and saw a train stop in Rockwood and drop of some cars for the S&C. Since the train on the Keystone Sub was westbound, I'm guessing it was 353. I don't know how to tell train numbers at all so don't hold me to that. Guess that makes more sense to drop the cars off in Connellsville since it's not that far away.

Hoping to make a trip down to Rockwood today to see what, if anything, is sitting around.

[bbrant]

Quentin -

Hope you and your family had a very merry Christmas.

Don't know where that bridge is in Connellsville. Like csx engineer posted, it's probably from the P&LE or WM. Not real familiar with Connellsville so I'm just guessing at this.

I'll try to bring up the maps with the old RoW of the Boswell Branch on terraserver. Be interesting to see where the horseshoe curves were. I have a calendar from the Western Maryland Historical Society. Can't remember the month but there's a picture of a WM coal train with the caption mentioning it was near Boswell. Would this have been the same branch or did the WM have their own?

[Modelcar]

Brian....The Western Maryland had trackage rights {of some kind}, and came in from Rockwood...{don't know where they were able to connect up to the B&0 over there}, and came down the S&C to Somerset and switched over to the Boswell Branch {near there where the S&C ducks under the Turnpike}, and came on down to the Acosta area and there a branch came off that and ran up into Gray {crossing old 219, now 985 I believe }, and if you look close you can still see where that is there on the flat.....and it went up into Gray there to the mines and of course pulled coal out of there...I always wondered how that ever got started as opposed to having the B&O service them....?? Anyway, I can remember on occasion seeing a WM Engine crossing there coming in to pick up hoppers. So that's the way the WM got the coal out of there.

[Modelcar]

....Brian....I just checked out Terraserva.com yesterday to see if it was still possible to see what we're talking about and yes I found it but I couldn't zoom in close as I would have like to...{it said the + zoom was disabled},...?? But I did find the horseshoe curves...you really have to know where and what you are looking for. I suggest you put in Friedens for an address to start for...and then check the compass and move northwest one or two notches and you really have to look close...After all, it's been 60 years since it's been pulled up and a few places it's been plowed over, etc. Leaving Fiedens it tracks lets say west and then curves to the right and swings around and now swings left around a hill and comes back west and crosses the road you will be traveling on and makes a large horseshoe curve and comes back east and recrosses the same road again and curves slightly left {mostly NE}, around another hill and comes back west again with a slightly left curve and then starts into another horseshoe bending around to the right and generally headed WNW towards Raphton...Whew..! Hope you can follow some of what I have laid out to try to find looking on Terraserva.com. Good luck...And we hope you had a good Christmas.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

CSXEngineer -

First off, hope you & your family had a merry Christmas.

Thanks for posting the info on how crews work the S&C. In October of '98 I was getting some pics of trains on the west side of Sandpatch grade and saw a train stop in Rockwood and drop of some cars for the S&C. Since the train on the Keystone Sub was westbound, I'm guessing it was 353. I don't know how to tell train numbers at all so don't hold me to that. Guess that makes more sense to drop the cars off in Connellsville since it's not that far away.

Hoping to make a trip down to Rockwood today to see what, if anything, is sitting around.

well....i thank you for your holiday wishes..and hope yours where as good as mine where....
as far as rockwood.... you should see the power and what ever cars are to be taken to connellsville or up on the S&C if you get down thier befor the crew come on duty...like i said befor..im almost 100% postitive the crew dosnt start work untill the early evening...but that might have been changes at some point agin too...but if they arent on duty yet..you should be able to get some pics of something..if not the power and train..you can take a few new pics of the station at rockwood..and the WM overpass..lol.....
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

oh by the way mr brant...i might try and make my way put to where your at this next comeing weekend to see your club layout... see how the weather goes and if i can get out of bed befor noon on a saterday or sunday morning..lol....ill let you know if i am going to try and make it for sure...
csx engineer

[Modelcar]

CSXengineer98...Brian must be away from the forum for a few days....I can identify the building you will be looking for there on the Diamond. If you approach the Diamond coming up the hill from the east and on 31 as you would cross the Diamond look to the left side beyond the cross street and a large old red brick building and from what I understand the model set up is in the basement of that building. There is a real nice sidewalk clock on a post near the curb in front of that building too. That building has been renovated in recent years to various businesses {like a mini mall}, inside on the main floor. Also stairway inside to reach lower level.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

CSXengineer98...Brian must be away from the forum for a few days....I can identify the building you will be looking for there on the Diamond. If you approach the Diamond coming up the hill from the east and on 31 as you would cross the Diamond look to the left side beyond the cross street and a large old red brick building and from what I understand the model set up is in the basement of that building. There is a real nice sidewalk clock on a post near the curb in front of that building too. That building has been renovated in recent years to various businesses {like a mini mall}, inside on the main floor. Also stairway inside to reach lower level.

thanks for the info on what to look for...i know alittle bit about summerset..but not to much...i only ever pass through thier..never actuly went thier for something...lol....i hope i can get up thier to check it out...
csx engineer