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CSX S&C Branch

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CSX S&C Branch
Posted by bbrant on Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:05 PM
Here's an update on the CSX S&C branchline for anyone interested.

On Friday unit #2625 was sitting in the siding in Rockwood. A train with one gon and a string of TTX flat cars was stopped just short of the railroad crossing at Wilson Creek. Train was powerd by GP38-2 #2647 and GP40-2 #6393.

There were 4 gons of scrap metal and 2 empty gons in the yard at Somerset. There were also 2 grain cars at the Agway facility.

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Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:28 PM
...Encourging that at least there is ongoing business on the S&C still....Let's hope more will develop as time goes forward.

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Posted by csxengineer98 on Sunday, December 19, 2004 5:53 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Encourging that at least there is ongoing business on the S&C still....Let's hope more will develop as time goes forward.
that would be nice..but i think it keeps going the other way..losing it insted.... i am realy shocked that csx didnt deside to spin it off with the way they keep wanting to get ride of smaller branch lines... like the P&W and W&P in pittsburgh... but i guess it makes just enough money to make it worth while to keep it..for the time being at least.... i hope the summerset and cambria countys can intise new biz to locat thier long the branch to maybe beath more life into it someday
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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, December 19, 2004 7:59 PM
The S&C is in neverland.....Just enough business to prevent abandonment, not enough business to entice a short line operator to buy it.

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Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, December 19, 2004 8:46 PM
....I don't know what it is that justifies continuing it's operation but just to think about the situation...It is the only connection between {now}, NS east and west in Johnstown south to the CSX east and west line 40 miles away....Both major lines across much of Pennsylvania. If that line would be severed there would be no connection across there for many, many miles....and perhaps there may be some importance in keeping that connection for now and for what might happen in the future...Don't know, just speculation. After all, the Mill operation {such as it is} is still there in Johnstown along with Johnstown American Car shops....So, maybe that enters into the equation. Let's hope something does.

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Posted by dwil89 on Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....I don't know what it is that justifies continuing it's operation but just to think about the situation...It is the only connection between {now}, NS east and west in Johnstown south to the CSX east and west line 40 miles away....Both major lines across much of Pennsylvania. If that line would be severed there would be no connection across there for many, many miles....and perhaps there may be some importance in keeping that connection for now and for what might happen in the future...Don't know, just speculation. After all, the Mill operation {such as it is} is still there in Johnstown along with Johnstown American Car shops....So, maybe that enters into the equation. Let's hope something does.
Yeah...whatever freight that CSX brings up to Johnstown could just as easily be brought in on NS which runs right through town....Is there much activity at all in the old yard in Somerset? Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, December 20, 2004 2:58 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....I don't know what it is that justifies continuing it's operation but just to think about the situation...It is the only connection between {now}, NS east and west in Johnstown south to the CSX east and west line 40 miles away....Both major lines across much of Pennsylvania. If that line would be severed there would be no connection across there for many, many miles....and perhaps there may be some importance in keeping that connection for now and for what might happen in the future...Don't know, just speculation. After all, the Mill operation {such as it is} is still there in Johnstown along with Johnstown American Car shops....So, maybe that enters into the equation. Let's hope something does.
that thing is that thier might be a direct interchange between csx and ns at johnstown but nothing is interchanged their... it all takes place in pittsburgh with a little bit being handled by the SWP from greensburg to connellsville on the old PRR south west branch....
but as far as biz goes like someone mentioned above... the class 1s have a nasty habit of POing custermers or just out right abanding branches to leave them on thier own... but short lines that take over branch lines have a tendancy to be shipper friendly... they go out of their way to make shippers happy and try to get more shippers to go with them becoues of thier more flexable make the shipper happy way of doing biz... the short lines know that servival means they need to keep what they have..and get more...
its funny....the rail road industry had come full circal... 150 years ago..all the little lines where sucked into bigger and bigger companys... now...the companys are spining off lines back to little short lines....
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, December 20, 2004 3:00 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....I don't know what it is that justifies continuing it's operation but just to think about the situation...It is the only connection between {now}, NS east and west in Johnstown south to the CSX east and west line 40 miles away....Both major lines across much of Pennsylvania. If that line would be severed there would be no connection across there for many, many miles....and perhaps there may be some importance in keeping that connection for now and for what might happen in the future...Don't know, just speculation. After all, the Mill operation {such as it is} is still there in Johnstown along with Johnstown American Car shops....So, maybe that enters into the equation. Let's hope something does.
Yeah...whatever freight that CSX brings up to Johnstown could just as easily be brought in on NS which runs right through town....Is there much activity at all in the old yard in Somerset? Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown
yard in sommerset...what yard....nothing but grass now... the only action summerset sees is when the local out of rockwood comes up and switches it evey other day...
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 20, 2004 3:03 AM
NS and CSX probably want an emergency connection between them in Johnstown and it makes sense to keep that connection intact so they can help each other if one or the other has a problem east or west of Johnstown.
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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, December 20, 2004 8:14 AM
...Emergency connecion...Yea, that is the way I would think but do railroad companies really think that way....Seems they abandon everything in site and then wonder how to take care of capacity or an emergency later on if that be necessary. I personally think the S&C would be an asset to both Co's. for a variety of reasons but understanding the operations somewhat of railroad Co's, in the time we live now, I wonder if they let themselves have such luxury now. The S&C connects some rough territory together and If it's removed that route will be lost for ever. Elevation difference between Johnstown and Somerset must be almost a thousand feet...in about 30 plus miles. Some rough grades on the line {one at about 3% I know of}, but seems to be a fairly well engineered line. It sure was a busy one in years past. But King coal is not mined to the extent it once was in that area. It was full of mines scattered throughout those valleys. A lot of that coal helped to fight WWII....around the clock. The mine at Reading, Pa., near Stoystown used to produce about 8 or 10 cars daily to be pulled out and that was just one of many.

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Posted by dwil89 on Monday, December 20, 2004 11:14 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

NS and CSX probably want an emergency connection between them in Johnstown and it makes sense to keep that connection intact so they can help each other if one or the other has a problem east or west of Johnstown.
That's a possibility, though remote in my opinion,but it appears that when a major line, like Sand Patch, or the Water Level Rte is blocked, trains detour over NS from points further West and East. There are enough other detour routes that the S@C would be very low on that list. For example, if there was a derailment on Sand Patch, CSX could use a more southern rte, to bypass the blockage or else CSX could get on NS at Pittsburgh and then head into Enola and down the Port Rd to get to Baltimore..etc. I don't feel that an emergency rte is a important reason for the S and C Rte being open...besides, if they had to run a detour train up, it would be quite involved getting it through the tight curves in Johnstown itself, and out onto NS. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 20, 2004 1:50 PM
Emergencies may be only one of the reasons. An handling emergencies doesn't necessarily mean detours, it can mean bring the right equipment to a problem the quickest way.
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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, December 20, 2004 2:29 PM
...I'm sure many movements have been accomplished from the B&O perhaps over the C& BL and onto the Pennsylvania in years past with new cars, steel movements and iron ore, and perhaps even some coal and perhaps some general merchancise....so I'd say it can be done if appropriate tracks have not been taken out in years since then.
Another item that might be part of the equation is the cost to abandon...And with still a bit of movement on the line they are satisfied to let it serve it's purpose for now....

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Posted by bbrant on Monday, December 20, 2004 3:20 PM
All -

I just read the posts and I admit that I'm surprised that a class 1 like CSX is still holding on to a branch like the S&C. I don't think I've ever heard of the line being used for detour purposes although it would be a site to see wide cabs and stacks traveling the line. (I know, the line probably doesn't have the clearances but a guy can dream, can't he?)

As far as the yard in Somerset. There is still a yard there but it's down to I think only four tracks (not sure how many it had in it's prime.) The tracks the old B&O passenger cars once sat on have been torn up for I don't know how many years. On a good day you'll see maybe 10 or so cars in the yard. The most active industry is the Agway plant which - to the best of my knowledge - only gets covered hoppers. Oh yes, the yard tower has been closed for years.

If anyone is interested, here's a link to some pictures I took of the S&C this past summer.

www.thebrantfamily.com/sc

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Posted by bbrant on Monday, December 20, 2004 3:26 PM
One other note on the S&C...I drove down to Rockwood today. Unit #2625 was still in the siding at Rockwood. Units 2647 & 6393 were stopped just short of the Wilson Creek RR crossing with another train. The train was made up of a single covered hopper (just behind the locos), 5 gons, a string of flat cars & more gons, a string of tank cars and about 5 more gons on the end.

Looks like a trip to Johnstown will be made either later today or tomorrow!
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, December 20, 2004 5:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

All -

I just read the posts and I admit that I'm surprised that a class 1 like CSX is still holding on to a branch like the S&C. I don't think I've ever heard of the line being used for detour purposes although it would be a site to see wide cabs and stacks traveling the line. (I know, the line probably doesn't have the clearances but a guy can dream, can't he?)

As far as the yard in Somerset. There is still a yard there but it's down to I think only four tracks (not sure how many it had in it's prime.) The tracks the old B&O passenger cars once sat on have been torn up for I don't know how many years. On a good day you'll see maybe 10 or so cars in the yard. The most active industry is the Agway plant which - to the best of my knowledge - only gets covered hoppers. Oh yes, the yard tower has been closed for years.

If anyone is interested, here's a link to some pictures I took of the S&C this past summer.

www.thebrantfamily.com/sc

Brian
the S&C donst have the clearance..thier is a tunel not to far from johnstown that has a hight restriction on it... anything over a plate c i think it was is prohiboted in the tunel...so i dough that it would be used for rerouts...if anything csx would do what they did back some years ago with a derailment at shoo fly... they would send them down the mon branch onto the NS loverage sub to grafton..and down the mountin sub into cumberland...
by the way..you related to tommy brant?
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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, December 20, 2004 7:38 PM
csxengineer98....Speaking of clearances...What is "Plate C" when speaking of restrictions...? And yes, I know about the tunnel...It is built on a curve and brick and stone lined...Only about 500 or less ft. in length. I peeked in it...some years ago...and I know, one is not to do that.

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Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, December 20, 2004 8:07 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

csxengineer98....Speaking of clearances...What is "Plate C" when speaking of restrictions...? And yes, I know about the tunnel...It is built on a curve and brick and stone lined...Only about 500 or less ft. in length. I peeked in it...some years ago...and I know, one is not to do that.
now what im about to say might be wrong..its been some time since i was a conductor in choo choo U school..so i might screw this up...so anyone that knows for sure can add the propor corrections to my statment...
but a plate C is the size of the car...a normal sized car..meening..a normal box car for example is a Plate C..now if the boxcar is higher then the standerd box car..it is a plate D or something like that... if you ever noticed on an auto rack..it is a plate F...a high car... but as far as hight restrictions... railroads go by feet of clearnace more then anything... you can have a flat car..that can go anywhere..but you might have a high load on it that might exceed the clearances for a line... the Plate system is just a ball park figer for the cars...like a standerd hight for each plate class....
since you looking into the tunel..did you notice in a few places where cars have scraped the brick and stone inside it..lol....it is a TIGHT fit for any train...
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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, December 20, 2004 8:21 PM
....Yes, I did notice a line of scraping up high on the tunnel arch inside.....and I know what you are addressing on the height of cars now....Like the painted mark at that height on a high volume box that is higher than a regular box car...etc....

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Posted by bbrant on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:16 AM
csxengineer98 -

I thought a plate C was what I used on my 3rd trip to the buffet table (after plates A & B)! lol Ok, baaaad joke. Thanks for sharing the information on the differences between the different plates.

No, I'm no relation to Tommy Brant. Just out of curiosity, have you ever worked the S&C? If so, did you know a fellow by the last name of Hamilton? I can't remember his first name but I think he was in charge of the yard office in Somerset back in the mid/late 1970's.

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Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:44 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

csxengineer98 -

I thought a plate C was what I used on my 3rd trip to the buffet table (after plates A & B)! lol Ok, baaaad joke. Thanks for sharing the information on the differences between the different plates.

No, I'm no relation to Tommy Brant. Just out of curiosity, have you ever worked the S&C? If so, did you know a fellow by the last name of Hamilton? I can't remember his first name but I think he was in charge of the yard office in Somerset back in the mid/late 1970's.

Brian
i made like 4 trips up and back on the S&C about 5 years ago...as part of my training.... i remember bits and peices of it... and i have a map of it somewhere.... but lot of it is starting to fade away...as far as summerset..i am up that way once in a while..to make my connection on the Pike... from rt 31...so i always take a look around and see if thier are any cars at berkibal oil..and the other places they spot cars at long the tracks befor i get to to the pike....
and no..i didnt know a hamilton... he must have retired or was sent someplaces else...never heard of him..sorry
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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 7:36 PM
...CSXengineere98...If you are coming in on 31 from the east that is one of the routes we ran with test vehicles years ago....up and down White Horse Mountain...testing experimental truck transmissions. Of course I've been on over west on 31 too clear over to where it ends at I-70...On rare occcasion we use that if we think the Pennsy Turnpike will be too busy over around Donegal...New Stanton and near the Somerset area with lots of construction now, etc....Use this route coming into the Somerset area from Indiana for our visits a couple of times a year.

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Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 7:50 PM
yea i know ...i use 31 to get to summerset to take the pike east...it is actuly faster then if i get on at summerset then new stanton...if you dont get behind any triaxle coal buckets or bigger trucks...and you save a few bucks on the turnpike fair...
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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:29 PM
...Right...If you get behind trucks climbing the mountain next to Mt. Pleasant and can't get around...that can really hold a person up. There are quite a few trucks running that area. I believe there is a stone quarry on the east side of the mountain range over near Donegal too which can be a problem. We don't use that route very often but as I stated if we know the construction is heavy on adding the 3rd lane up the mountain, etc... then we might use it....It is a nice drive across there in nice weather. Our home area is 10 miles north of Somerset.

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:33 PM
...Just as a comment of railroad matters....The S&C is the first location I saw them lay continous rail...many years ago. And I can't pin point when that was....It must have been in the 60's....I remember of being surprised of them doing that at the time.

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Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:08 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Right...If you get behind trucks climbing the mountain next to Mt. Pleasant and can't get around...that can really hold a person up. There are quite a few trucks running that area. I believe there is a stone quarry on the east side of the mountain range over near Donegal too which can be a problem. We don't use that route very often but as I stated if we know the construction is heavy on adding the 3rd lane up the mountain, etc... then we might use it....It is a nice drive across there in nice weather. Our home area is 10 miles north of Somerset.
yea..that stone guarry is right around the turn to go to the hidden valley ski resort.... and if thier is a problem on the pike... the trucks will use 31 to get around it...now that is the real pain in the butt... trying to get onto 31 south at sarinellies markent from 7spings is a nightmare..many times i said screw it and made the rigth towres summerset..and turned around someplaces...it is sometimes easier to try and cross 1 lane at a time on 31 then it is to try to get a hole in 2 lanes...
and as far as the welded rail..where did they put that in at?oh yea..one more thing..that tunel at the top of the hill out of summerset...is that the old western PA railway or what ever that road was going to be crossed over the B&O..i know that the summerset tunel on the pike was going to be a railroad tunel...but i dont know which one it was...was it the east or west bound lanes?
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Posted by bbrant on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:35 AM
CSX Engineer -

You're correct about the tunnel just outside of Somerset on the S&C. The tunnel goes through a fill that was, at one time, supposed to be a railroad. I believe it was to have been called the West Penn RR or something like that. The Allegheny tunnel on the PA Turnpike was also to be a RR tunnel but I'm not certain if it was the east or westbound lanes.

If you don't mind me asking, what line do you work now? If you or Quinton (modelcar) are in the Somerset area for a visit, stop in at the Laurel Highlands Model RR club in the old Newberry's building. I'm normally there on weekends helping out running the club layout. Stop in and say hello.
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Posted by bbrant on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:42 AM
One question about the S&C. Has this line ever been signaled? In all my years around this line, I don't recall ever seeing any signals. For all the traffic that the line once had, I would have to think there were signals at one time or another.

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Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 6:57 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

One question about the S&C. Has this line ever been signaled? In all my years around this line, I don't recall ever seeing any signals. For all the traffic that the line once had, I would have to think there were signals at one time or another.

Brian
i dont know about the whole branch..but i do know from my map..it did have a signal in summerset..right about where the turnpike crosses the line...where and old branch line splits off ..you can still see the grade of it from the pike going west bound ..... ill see if i cant dig up the maps and let you know for sure ...
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 6:59 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

CSX Engineer -

You're correct about the tunnel just outside of Somerset on the S&C. The tunnel goes through a fill that was, at one time, supposed to be a railroad. I believe it was to have been called the West Penn RR or something like that. The Allegheny tunnel on the PA Turnpike was also to be a RR tunnel but I'm not certain if it was the east or westbound lanes.

If you don't mind me asking, what line do you work now? If you or Quinton (modelcar) are in the Somerset area for a visit, stop in at the Laurel Highlands Model RR club in the old Newberry's building. I'm normally there on weekends helping out running the club layout. Stop in and say hello.
and where is the newberry building... and what hours on the weekends..and are you doing some kind of chirsmas show? and if so.what hours for the showings and what days
csx engineer
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