Someone who remembers fill us in. Was there a time that a fourth day Eagle ran from SAS < > LAX ? That would have given 4 RTs SAS <> LAX ? If so how did ridership compare to the 3 RTs ?
K.P.'s post about the line on his Sunset Route Thread .. It is near the bottom of the page.
Arizona's Two and a Half Sunset Route Tracks
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/120779.aspx?page=77
Shortened link..
http://bit.ly/2fC4qiA
Robert,
I dunno. I thought that the "Abandoned Rails" webmaster stated that THAT signal was at Arlington siding in which case, if true, that's already been replaced by UP "Darth Vader" types.
What I was wondering about were two vertical black objects (in addition to the defunct semaphore mast). I'm not sure what they are. Could it be they started an installation then quit work on it? Or, maybe they're old signal code line poles? If I still lived in the Phoenix area, hell, I'd drive out there and check this out.
But here is something else interesting that I found today. I was reading over that huge 189 page AZDOT document that I posted on here yesterday.
If you scroll WAY down to page A-3 or A-4 in the appendix, there's a nice map of Arizona. That map shows both the planned "Red Rock Yard" and the mysterious Buckeye Yard. So, our "friend" Stan Jefferson was right about that! I'm thinking that his theory might be spot on. There may have been some kind of a connection between this planned yard at Buckeye and the reopening of the Arlington-Roll segment. With the yard "on hold" (or quite possibly shelved altogether) the fate of the the West Phoenix line might also be in the same boat with it.
This is a truly interesting and fun document. I might just print it off and take it home. There is a lot of neat stuff in there that almost makes it a railfan's and rail advocate's dream. Realistically, I realize that most of this stuff will not happen in our lifetimes if at all. But if it ever did, it'd make me smile!
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
That looks like an old signal associated with the removed switch and siding towards the east. There are no solar panels to indicate a new installation.
It may be the location of the photo on the Abandoned Rails Site
Further west still (prbly close to 10 miles) I found this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1499674,-113.088366,103m/data=!3m1!1e3
Once again, from so far out in space it's hard for me to tell exactly what I'm looking at but it kinda looks like a defunct semaphore signal (sans blades) and what appears to look like a pair of newer signals that have been bagged but, who knows? Also, you will notice that the rails through here look very rusty. It's east from a long cut of stored cars near Harqua that the rails looks like they might've seen use.
Another thing, flying over here I'm not seeing any significant damage to the line. There are tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of ties that would need to be replaced but all the bridges look like they might be O.K. and I'm not seeing any washouts or anything.
FMC
Nice find Fred ... These what if discussions are entertaining ..
Maybe as the valley keeps expanding Yuma will become a bedroom community for Phoenix needing communter rail ..
kgbw49The other issue with Raton is that the Transcon to Amarillo and then the former Fort Worth & Denver-Colorado & Southern route to Trinidad form a reasonable bypass - granted it is "two sides of the triangle" but not outrageously circuitous.
The use of the Transcon to and from Amarillo works well. Traffic from Denver to NM, AZ and So Cal now goes east from Pueblo to Las Animas Jct thence to Boise City aand AMO. Traffic to Denver from the southwest comes to AMO then via the FW & D line through Trinidad and Pueblo. This arrangement uses two (2) crews each way with crew changes at La Junta and Trinidad. To use the Raton Pass line would require three (3) crews each way because of the grade difficulties with both Glorieta and Raton Passes. Add the need for more locomotives and reduced tonage to avoid doubleing the hill on Raton makes the BNSF decision apparent.
rdamon My error ... I thought K.P. was referring to the streetview pictures not the aerial shot that showed the new installation.
My error ... I thought K.P. was referring to the streetview pictures not the aerial shot that showed the new installation.
Interesting discussion. Texas would relay the rail if it had to if passenger rail or mass transit was involved. Understood that Arizona is a different animal when it comes to mass transit and passenger trains (My Brother lives in Chandler, AZ).
We have a similar situation in Texas with the old former direct connection between Austin and Houston, TX. Part of it is ripped up now but my presumption is that if the HSR Dallas to Houston falls through. Austin will pay to relay the rail to make the connection viable again to UP's Houston Line and then buy or pay for a passenger train to Houston at some point in the next 10-15 years. We'll see.
Interestingly Wisconsin is in a similar situation with it's proposed and long-term plan for Amtrak service between Milwaukee and Green Bay. The most direct route ex-C&NW airline between Fond Du Lac and Milwaukee via West Bend is largely just a bike trail now. Sure they can use CN via a detour out to Duplainville on CP then use the interchange track to CN and take CN to Fond Du Lac. I think it much more likely they will relay rail on the ex-C&NW airline at some point to Fond Du Lac and possibly all the way to the outskirts of Oshkosh...........and that opens the debate again on bike trails becomming railroads again after becomming a bike trail. I just do not see WisDOT putting up with three railroads BS on restarting passenger rail to use the last in place existing route. Also think Amtrak would prefer, it's own right of way as much as possible. Amtrak Milwaukee-Green Bay service would probably be 3 round trips to start.
The other issue with Raton is that the Transcon to Amarillo and then the former Fort Worth & Denver-Colorado & Southern route to Trinidad form a reasonable bypass - granted it is "two sides of the triangle" but not outrageously circuitous.
KP has again hit the spike on the head!
K. P. Harrier <cut> The western Phoenix Line and the Raton Pass line seem to have a common predicament … <cut> Love this beating a dead horse to death, K.P.
<cut>
The western Phoenix Line and the Raton Pass line seem to have a common predicament …
Love this beating a dead horse to death,
K.P.
K.P.,
Actually, I think we've had a rather interesting discussion on this! I also like and agree with your comparison of the West Phoenix Line and the Raton Pass line.
On two-tracking the Gila line, that might have a serious impact on the future of the West Phoenix line - or not. I was told by Omaha back in the late 1990s that they are not really interested in running through freight through downtown Phoenix after I'd suggested the line could be used in some kind of directional traffic scheme.
But they were not interested in that. The Gila line is superior "because it avoids downtown Phoenix" I think they said or words to that effect. In the event of a catastrophic derailment on the Gila sub, they'd gladly divert trains on a short term basis but not on a permanent basis.
But, here's what I think and this is *ONLY* an opinion: The West Phoenix line might be strategically important *IF* Phoenix were to become a major intermodal hub for the UP.
I personally feel that when it comes to developing Phoenix into a major intermodal center, that the UP has kinda dropped the ball on this.
I sent an e-mail to a guy who oversees industrial development sharing my thoughts on this. He has yet to respond. I might give it a couple more weeks and if I don't hear anything, I might write another letter to Omaha.
Oh, and I'm not sure, but I think I might've found a phone number for Stan Jefferson. Maybe I'll try it later and see if it works.
Fred M. Cain (9-27):
It seems I do recall reading something somewhere on plans (“plans”) about the western Phoenix Line to have some money spent to reopen it, $31 million comes to mind, but nothing ever came of it. The thing with such reports is someone comes up with an idea and works towards that end, but someone higher up overrules what they had envisioned or the economy worsens that delays doing anything on it, then someone else comes along with different ideas.
Some years back I heard someone got excited about reopening BNSF’s Raton Pass line to through freights again. But something changed and the idea went away. Maybe they figured out that a 4% grade wouldn’t fit into what they had envisioned!
The thing about the western Phoenix Line is that it works against itself. Spending any money on it takes money away from the all-important two-tracking of the Sunset Route, which two-tracking makes it even more unlikely the Phoenix Line would reopen as a through route. The western Phoenix Line and the Raton Pass line seem to have a common predicament …
The least costly factor overall seems to win out in management decisions, and as with BNSF’s Ration Line, the western Phoenix Line hardly has a promising future, at least for the next few decades.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
rdamon K.P. The date from the Google Street View in Dateland, AZ was labeled May 2011, which suggests that they left the masts but took the signal heads. I vaguely remember a similar photo in one of your posts. I do not believe that it is due to any new construction. I hope that they are due for a streetview update soon. Robert
The date from the Google Street View in Dateland, AZ was labeled May 2011, which suggests that they left the masts but took the signal heads.
I vaguely remember a similar photo in one of your posts.
I do not believe that it is due to any new construction.
I hope that they are due for a streetview update soon.
Robert
I thought that someone once told me that although the street views only get updated every so many years, the views from space get updated more regularly.
The space view you showed us of the signals at Crag appeared to show signal heads. That suggests that those signal heads were, in fact, reinstalled. Besides, I'm thinking that west of Arlington was mostly semaphore territory anyhow when the signals were removed.
That guy Stan Jefferson stated on "Abandoned Rails" that the UP was moving forward with reopening the line around 2013 or so but that an economic downturn put the work on hold. We can easily assume or jump to the conclusion that he just plain doesn't know what he's talking about but there is no real reason to assume that. He could just as easily be right as wrong. At this time we really don't know.
If I can find out I will share it with the group.
And now, for a touch of nostalgia, if I may. Check out this shot of the Phoenix Line from the website "Carr Tracks"
http://www.carrtracks.com/azss866sig.htm
Ah, yes, that does bring back memories! Although that was shot in 1985 (according to the author), prior to around 1976 the Phoenix subdivision was chock full of these. Shoot! There must have been over a hundred sets of them between Mesa and Welton. Prior to 1976 they were spaced at around one mile. I took a few pictures of them when I was in high school with my trusty "Brownie" camera but I can't find them anymore. I'm afraid I lost them.
Norm48327 ... Amtrak owns the line from Kalamazoo, MI to somewhere in northwestern Indiana and they maintain it to 110 MPH standards. The state of Michigan also owns track from Detroit to Kalamazoo and recently upgraded that line to better enhance passenger service. Another possibility would be the state of Arizona buying that portion of the line basically on behalf of Amtrak and granting UP trackage rights. Economically feasible? I don't know. Yes, I am aware politics plays a huge part in the decision.
...
Amtrak owns the line from Kalamazoo, MI to somewhere in northwestern Indiana and they maintain it to 110 MPH standards. The state of Michigan also owns track from Detroit to Kalamazoo and recently upgraded that line to better enhance passenger service.
Another possibility would be the state of Arizona buying that portion of the line basically on behalf of Amtrak and granting UP trackage rights.
Economically feasible? I don't know. Yes, I am aware politics plays a huge part in the decision.
The Amtrak/Michigan line from Porter, IN to the Detroit area hosts 4 round trips per day as far as Battle Creek, and 3 RT per day the rest of the way to Detroit. This compares to 3 RT per WEEK over the Sunset route.
K. P. Harrier Those new, single mast signals in your first 9-26 post’s aerial have NOT been seen previously by myself, suggesting that UP is reinstalling the gone, missing signals westward, but only as time permits.
Those new, single mast signals in your first 9-26 post’s aerial have NOT been seen previously by myself, suggesting that UP is reinstalling the gone, missing signals westward, but only as time permits.
This is what Stan Jefferson posted on the "Abandoned Rails" website:
http://www.abandonedrails.com/Roll_to_Arlington (scroll clear down to the 4th from the last entry then the final entry)
"The east end of this line, from Arlington AZ west is getting new signals. Word for the signal crew I talked to is that the line will reopen partially past Dixie in the very near future, and become a through line in the next few years."
And then........ "Latest word I got from a UP signalman as of 6/16 was that there are no plans to reopen past where the signals have been updated, account the economy is too shaky to justify it. I also understand that the yard outside of Buckeye which had been proposed & land purchased is on hold @ this time as well."
I would just *LOVE* to have a correspondence with that guy but I can't find him. e-mails sent to the "Abandoned Rails" website manager were not returned.
rdamon (9-26/26A):
Those new, single mast signals in your first 9-26 post’s aerial have NOT been seen previously by myself, suggesting that UP is reinstalling the gone, missing signals westward, but only as time permits. But, I wouldn’t read too much into that, as if maybe some miraculous divine intervention was taking place. Of interest to most, and not available to most, but sources have actually shown me the current timetable of that west side of the Phoenix Line, and according to the timetable, that line IS PRESENTLY ABS SIGNALED and IN SERVICE. So new installations are just restoring what is supposed to be there. (Of course, the out of service track westward to Roll does not need to have signals present.) If a Phoenix authority someday buys that west side Phoenix Line, with signals in place, UP probably could command a higher price and get it. So, there may be a certain smart method to UP’s seemingly crazy madness of restoring signaling on the line, besides the legalities of it …
Best,
Thanks for pointing that out. Actually that report dates from 2010 so it's already about 7 years old now. The next year (2011) the Arizona D.O.T. came out with an even bigger document which I thought I posted here but evidently it was on another thread. It is 189 pages long but discussion of the West Phoenix Line begins on page 47 and then is touched upon again on page 110. There are some other interesting things in the document as well.
Here's the link: https://azdot.gov/docs/planning/state-rail-plan.pdf?sfvrsn=0
Although I'm continuing to research this I'm rapidly running out of material but before I wind it down there are two more mysteries that I could mention.
It has been mentioned on several railfan-oriented forums (along with that "abadoned rails" website) that the Union Pacific was planning a big new yard in the Buckeye area. That is indeed intriguing but I can't find anything concrete on this. There is no mention of it on Union Pacific's website that I could find.
The other mystery is a *HUGE* new classification yard at Picacho. Known as the "Red Rock" yard, one report suggested that it might have up to 74 tracks!
If you try and Google for "Union Pacific Red Rock yard" you will find them but here is one such article: http://www.pinalcountyaz.gov/ed/Pages/AboutRedRockProject.aspx
The mystery here is that I couldn't find any online information about Red Rock that was more recent that about 2012 and, once again, there is no mention of it on UP's website that I was able to find. So, is it safe to assume that this project is "on hold" as well?
Fred M Cain
Thank you for the link Fred,
However on Page 4 ..
Mr. McGee commented that the State has a lot of challenges and is in a crisis stage regarding funding in Greater Arizona. Chair Neely asked ifthe State received the funding for the Commuter Rail study between Phoenix and Tucson. Mr. McGee replied that the State did receive a grant for a Commuter Rail study. Mr. Smith added that the State did not get the Wellton Branch funding.
Norm,
I think what you might be getting at here and, if so, I’d agree with wholeheartedly, is that moving the main Sunset Limited (SL) Phoenix stop to the remote location of Maricopa may have been more psychologically damaging than anything else.
Amtrak’s own statistics seem to show that ridership on the SL dipped after the change was made although I have not been able to secure the exact statistics.
The greater Phoenix area was, behind L.A. and Houston, probably the biggest market on the whole route. I should also add that before the SL got booted off the Phoenix sub, it stopped at BOTH Phoenix and Tempe. Tempe, especially, was a nice place to wait for a train and convenient to the uppity bedroom communities of Scottsdale, Tempe & Mesa.
It was kind of a sad tale that the community fought a long, hard, valiant battle to get an Amtrak stop and I believe even raised local funds to rehab the SPT Co’s old depot there. Amtrak really dragged their feet on this. Timetables for several years indicated that service to Tempe would begin on a date “to be announced”.
Tempe’s efforts finally paid off (or, so they thought at the time). Tempe was established as a stop but then was only used for a few years until the SL had to vacate the Phoenix sub altogether.
When the West Phoenix line finally gets reopened (and I’m hopeful it will) don’t expect Amtrak to jump back on there right away. Many of the things Amtrak does seem to move at a snail’s pace – if at all.
In fact, I’ll go out on a limb here: I suspect that getting Amtrak back on the Phoenix sub could well turn out to be more difficult and problematic than getting the Arlington-Roll segment rehabbed and reopened. Yeah, that’s right! I hope I’m wrong but…….
Fred,
I'm aware Amtrak stops in Maricopa which is about a thirty mile drive south of Tempe but I'm wondering it they would benefit from having the stop in Phoenix proper. Would it would make [revenue] sense for Amtrak to support the costs of operating the line from Phoenix to Wellton while sharing it with UP? In my mind, lots of senior 'snowbirds' would rather take the train than fly were it convenient for them and getting closer to where they want to go may be a factor.
Norm
Here is something new that I found. (I am STILL looking for more info on the Welton line). I heard about this once before but I think this is the first time I found this document from ADOT. Let's see if the we can keep from breaking the URL here:
http://azmag.gov/Portals/0/Documents/EDC_2010-12-21_AGD.pdf?ver=2017-04-06-111023-563
You have to scroll ALL the way down to page 14 in the PDF (although the actual page number shows 9) where it starts to talk about the I-11 corridor. That is where it starts. Scroll to the next page and read about the Welton line.
This might explain why the UP has been reluctant to remove any more signal heads.
There is also a nice picture shown of Welton Junction as it looked in the old SPT Co. days (although the photo is probably post "merger").
This supports my contention that there is, in fact, a "plan" to revive the West Phoenix line. But let's not count our chickens before they hatch! A plan is, after all, a plan. That doesn't mean it will actually come to pass.
K.P.'s opinion is really pessimistic. Unfortunately his assessment is probably all too accurate. Personally, I hope he's wrong (and he might hope he's wrong too) but he may well be right, unfortunately. :(
Well, heck! I guess "the proof is in the pudding", huh? The signals I thought I saw at the TT west end of the west leg on the Phoenix line would've been a two-headed searchlight absolute signal. This was in the late 1960s and 1970s. The possibility cannot be dismissed that the SP had them removed since they were little used. But even if that memory is accurate, why would the UP re-signal the wye except for the very reason that you suggested?
By the way, I want to thank you very much (and I believe I speak for all of us) that I am very grateful for all these beautiful pictures you've posted on here both on this thread and on your Sunset Two-Tracking thread.
I hope you keep doing this.
Very much appreciated!
Fred M. Cain (9-26A):
That THEN new signals installation at the north end of the wye at Picacho, AZ as shot from Milligan Road back on March 22, 2012:
As seen above, NO old wye signals were being replaced in conjunction with the two-tracking of the Sunset Route in this area.
Take care,
Fred M. Cain (9-26):
Looking through old photo files I found those of March 22, 2012 of the Pichacho wye tracks, and they support my recollections. The west leg of the wye was in fact present, but it was un-signaled. Those pictures show the Phoenix Line wye switch (north switch) with NO signals present EXCEPT the not activated yet NEW ones, which more or less proves my point that the west leg was un-signaled previously.
If one thinks about it, for decades that western wye was little used, as the western Phoenix Line out of Wellton was the line of choice to reach Phoenix. It was only after the Phoenix Line ceased being used because of the little traffic on it that the signaled wye arrangement came about, and that was only because of the Picacho two-tracking then taking place.
K. P. Harrier I think what UP did in the Picacho siding area, where the Phoenix Line branches away from the Sunset Route SAYS IT ALL. They signaled (“signaled”) the WEST leg of a wye! <cut> Best, K.P.
I think what UP did in the Picacho siding area, where the Phoenix Line branches away from the Sunset Route SAYS IT ALL. They signaled (“signaled”) the WEST leg of a wye!
No Fred, I worked West to East and only saw the boxes with the heads removed. This streetview is from 2011. No solar panels visible from the aerial shot.
Fred M. Cain:
I think what UP did in the Picacho siding area, where the Phoenix Line branches away from the Sunset Route SAYS IT ALL. They signaled (“signaled”) the WEST leg of a wye! I don’t think UP would have done that if they entertained any possibility of reopening the Arlington to Wellton line to through trains.
It must be remembered a part of the western Phoenix Line is currently listed in UP timetables as ‘out of service.’ And, that is with the Sunset Route between Estrella and Wellton mostly single-track, except for the Mohawk area. When that Estrella-Wellton section is two-tracked completely, it would make the western Phoenix Line even more unlikely to be reinstated.
Whether transit interests would buy the western Phoenix line is questionable. And, I do not know what the business environment in Arizona is as far as taxation goes, but here in California the cities tax businesses, the revenue from such inspiring annexations galore. Years ago some individuals with foresight formed a “city” out of a strip of land near Los Angeles, and today that strip on land is called the “City of Industry.” That warded off surrounding cities from preying on the businesses there and annexing them for taxation revenue. As a result, the low taxation 20 minus or plus mile strip prospered and built up phenomenally!
Matter of fact, there was a super neat site that the LA&SL (UP) went by. In the last few decades I noted the site disappeared, as if someone stole it. Walking Grand Ave. in the City of Industry, CA, I came to the conclusion that to increase saleable land the powers that be bulldozed a whole mountain out of the way! And, in doing so, changed that ‘neat’ site into non-existence.
The western Phoenix Line may be able to find savvy investors and buy up all the property along UP’s western Phoenix Line and call the 100 mile strip (or however long it is) the “City of Industry, AZ.” Now, THAT would be a true hope for the western Phoenix Line! Everything else, I believe, is pipedreams!
I have a few billion dollars sitting around, who would like to join me in buying up a long strip of land in Arizona along the western UP Phoenix Line? (Yah, right!)
Anyway, Fred, that is how I see it and the dark side for the western Phoenix Line being used again (at least for a long, long time).
I zoomed out and when I did, the map portion shows that that signal is at Crag! Crag is considerably WEST of Arlington in a segment where the UP (according to one guy's post) rec'd permission to designal the line. I am now leaning toward believing that we are NOT reading too much into the signals, there really is some development going on here but what?
You know, Stan Jefferson might not have been that far off base when he said they were "near Hyder". Maybe the misunderstanding was that they were already there when they really weren't. Perhaps they were working their way there when the work was stopped again. There is absolutely no reason to put a new signal at Crag except that it would be needed when the line reopens.
One would think that they would improve the track structure first and improve the signals later. But you never know. Those are two completely different departments and crafts. Maybe track and signals both received the go-ahead to begin reopening proceedures and the signal department moved faster and got a lot further along than track when the work was stopped again. But why was it stopped? Or, did they just take a break? Maybe they're working out there now, I don't know. Maybe K.P. could get himself an S.U.V and drive the whole entire road from Roll to Arlington. :)
I can say here that I have it on good authority that there is a very strong political push on right now in Arizona to reopen this line and reroute Amtrak trains 1 & 2.
Lest we read too much into that, there are some very, very strong political pushes on right now to do a lot of things. That doesn't mean it will happen.
Can you find any more signals west of Crag?
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