Union Pacific (Ex SP) West Phoenix Line

[diningcar]

As we wander around here can we get back to the specifics of the UP intermodal proposal in Phoenix. My initial analysis, derived from UP's unspecific description of it's operation is unclear. Can anyone with UP connections get them to furnish a map showing how they will move the containers within the City.

[tree68]

J. Bishop

Back in the day, when I was a kid at UCSB, sugar beet trains were a staple on the Coast Line. (That and autoracks serving the plant at Fremont.) I don't remember which way they went loaded. But this suggests they were grown somewhere north of Santa Barbara.

John Bishop

Sugar beets were (and may still be) a staple on the Santa Maria Valley.

[J. Bishop]

Back in the day, when I was a kid at UCSB, sugar beet trains were a staple on the Coast Line. (That and autoracks serving the plant at Fremont.) I don't remember which way they went loaded. But this suggests they were grown somewhere north of Santa Barbara.

John Bishop

 

[croteaudd]

Fred M. Cain:

Thanks for the quick reply.  It sounds from your description that the sugar beet trains I saw in Colton (CA) as a kid came from the agricultural fields in Southern California near the Mexican border.

[Fred M Cain]

croteaudd,

The sugar beet trains were well mentioned and documented in railfan literature of the 1970's and '80s.  However, I cannot recall Phoenix being mentioned.  But I know 'cause I saw it with my own eyes.

Spreckles had a HUGE sugar factory a few miles south of Chandler, AZ, on the "Dock Branch".  This was actually a cut back from the primary Phoenix subdivision owing to a line relocation in the early '60s, I think.  The beet blocks would come in over the West Phoenix line from California then trundle down the the Dock branch to the Spreckles plant.

I can no longer remember exactly where the beets originated.  Some of them might've originated in the Imperial Valley and possibly from somewhere on the Coastline.

Another Phoenix move that although I never saw it, was through refer blocks.  The Salt River Valley was once a major producer of fruits and vegetables.  Especially citrus.  I have read where long refer blocks would come into Phoenix on the West Phoenix Line from California, then pick up a cut of cars and head east.

I have read that this was done often although I didn't actually get to see that.  Sadly, that kind of refer traffic is also now long gone.

[croteaudd]

Fred M. Cain:

In your post of December 5, 2023, at X:25 A.M., you mentioned ‘sugar beet trains’ on the east side of the Phoenix Line.  I wonder if those sugar beet trains were the same ones I saw here in Southern California.  In 1965 I was quite active railfan-wise, and a friend and I were in junior high school, and we saw quite often a sugar beet train pass our town, Colton, Calif.  They would go west to somewhere in the Central Valley of California where the beets were unloaded and processed.  In 1967, with the Palmdale Cutoff opening, the ‘beet’ trains were routed that shortcut way.

Sometime in the early 1970’s an empty sugar beet train was heading eastbound through Colton (to your area?).  It derailed right at Colton Tower, and cars scattered everywhere, with one beet car actually landing right inside the wooden tower!  The towerman got a horrendous shaking up at the sugar beet car striking the tower, and as I recalled, was actually trapped inside the tower because the door would not open thereafter.  He likely only survived and the tower did not collapse because of the many steel lever rods that went to switches to control them probably held the tower up.

Anyway, if you know if the sugar beet trains here in Southern California a half century ago were the same ones that passed the Phoenix area, I sure would like to know.  Thanks.

Sugar beet trains are now sugar beet trucks!  I see them seasonally and quite often too, and remember beets used to ride the rails!

[blue streak 1]

It may be if the Buckeye commuter trains will chasnge things If commuter trains.are to get off the ground UP would demand that the Wellingyon spur be restored to operation. 

[Fred M Cain]

Croteaudd,

I believe there was more traffic on the West Phoenix Line back in SP days than a single 15-car piggyback train.  There was, indeed, a daily manifest train that also used the line.  I believe it was usually only about 40-50 cars or so.  Then, there were the seasonal Spreckels sugar beet trains.  I caught the sugar beet train one time rolling and rattling its way through Tempe.  It was a sight to behold:  Wooden cars and friction journal bearings.  ‘Course, the sugar beet traffic is long gone.  I actually lived in the Phoenix area from 1967 to 1980.

 

I, too, am extremely skeptical about a Buckeye commuter train.  I know that’s been talked about but there have been so many proposals for better rail service, not only in Arizona, but all over the U.S.  Usually, they end up going nowhere.

 

However, after having lived so many years in the Phoenix area, I was really surprised and amazed that Phoenix finally got light rail and there are actually streetcars now running in Tempe.  I  never dreamed that would happen in the car-centric Salt River Valley.

 

As far as the West Phoenix Line goes, I think what a lot of us are doing on this thread is mere speculating. I, too, have to confess that I have been guilty of that at times.

 

As I suggested in my last post, I will continue to post new and updated information on the West Phoenix line as it becomes available.  Until then………….

[croteaudd]

Fred M. Cain:

 

Concerning Los Angeles-Phoenix Intermodal, I believe it was 1986, and I was trackside two or three blocks west of where the old Colton Tower once was (Colton, Calif.), west of the then double crossovers, and the hot Southern Pacific L.A.-Phoenix piggyback train showed up.  It stopped, a crew member deboarded, lined the power switches from Main 1 to Main 2, and then the Intermodal proceed east at restricted speed.  As I recall, it had something like 15 85-foot cars on it, all loaded, and two units as the power.

 

Even back then, that was one of the few trains that ever used the Phoenix line, besides, of course, the tri-weekly Sunset Limited.  So, the powers that then be, wisely mothballed the line, and to this day it is mothballed.  That undoubtedly avoided UP paying out more money than the line generated!    

 

Letter writing campaigns may be a waste of time because there simply is no money in the out of service western Phoenix Line for anyone, except in the Roll area that remains in service.  Here in California, there is still talk about running two commuter trains Indio (Coachella)-Los Angeles and back.  UP is reportedly willing if promoters will three-track the two-track line.  But the ridership draw I believe is even worst for the Yuma-Phoenix route.  If that line through Buckeye is ever used by commuter trains, it very, very likely will be after our time.  Can you imagine, Fred, UP two-tracking the Phoenix Line!  Can you imagine that line being like up in the San Francisco Bay area?  They strung two-track catenary and will soon run commuter trains under wires! 

 

[kgbw49]

Back in SP steam-powered and first generation diesel-powered passenger train days, all passenger trains except the Argonaut took the line through Phoenix.

[Fred M Cain]

Croteaudd,

 

I agree with most of what you’d posted.  However, I’m still reluctant about the wisdom of UP attempting to run a "fast intermodal" service from West Coast ports to Phoenix via Picacho Jct.  You pointed out that the wye has CTC which helps but it’s still a circuitous routing. If they build this new intermodal yard in the Buckeye area, that would make the move even more circuitous.  This just does not make good sense to me *BUT* that might be exactly what the UP intends to do. 

 

I guess we will just have to wait to see what UP’s next move will be.

 

I’ve had a theory about this for several years.  I strongly suspect that the UP has fully intended to renovate and reopen the Arlington – Roll section of the line for some time.  There is actually a tad bit of anecdotal evidence for this.  However, they were perhaps hoping to get some "help" either from Amtrak, the feds, the State or some combination of all of the above.

 

But they may have gotten tired of waiting now and have decided to move ahead on their own which, if true, that’d be find with me.  The government doesn’t  do things as efficiently as a private business.

 

I also agree with your position that state and local governments try to attract federal dollars to boost their local economies.  Sometimes it seems to me that they are more interested in that than in actually improving transportation.

 

However, to that, I can add a caveat.  It seems to me that when a government agency suddenly finds themselves with a financial windfall, one of the first things they do is to go out and hire a bunch of people to help "manage" the project and thereby simply expand the bureaucracy.  In the bitter end, much of the money intended for such a project never really ends up getting spent on what was intended.

 

Although badly off-topic from the West Phoenix Line,  I have been watching the President’s and the Congress’s plan for spending this huge amount of money on Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor.  How many more people will get hired in order to “manage” that project?  Then once they’re hired, that’s where they will stay even after the project’s is completed.  If, that is, it ever is completed.

 

Getting back on topic here for the West Phoenix Line, I might just try sending an e-mail off to Fred Frailey to see if he knows anything about this.  I vaguely remember that he’d mentioned something about it in an article he wrote for TRAINS Magazine a few years back but I can’t member what he said anymore.

[croteaudd]

Fred M. Cain:

 

You make some fascinating arguments about the West Phoenix Line and I feel many here at the forums would agree with you.  As much as many of us would like to see the line reopened, though, frankly, it appears unreasonable.  There are several reasons why.

 

First, the Sunset Route has only a hundred miles or so yet (I think) to be two-tracked, and that likely would be higher up on UP management’s mind.

 

Second, the current arrangement by Picacho, Ariz. is a CTC wye arrangement, so there is easy access to the Phoenix metropolitan area, without the high cost of upgrading Phoenix-Wellton.

 

Thirdly, and lastly, reportedly. there has been transit interests desirous of reopening the line to Wellton and all the way to Yuma.  Why would UP sink any money into the line if transit interests could get tons of Federal money to pay for upgrading the whole Phoenix-Yuma line?

 

It should be realized that often politicians’ No. 1 focus is to get Federal money into a local economy.  If you know anything about how money works, you would become a believer that a billion dollars could magically become billions more!  I mean, wouldn’t you show up if someone was handing out $100,000 checks?  I would, and I would tell my wife about it too!  And my adult kids also.  And my in-laws.  I have a great relationship with them.  Hey, I could have a super relationship if they got free money …

[kgbw49]

Interesting video of the Wellton Branch.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=36R2c9rDGKk

Back in the day the 4-8-4 Daylights pulled Overnight-branded LCL trains from LA to Phoenix over this line.

[kgbw49]

Interesting video of the Wellton Branch.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=36R2c9rDGKk

[Fred M Cain]

Well, for whatever it may be or not be worth, I actually wrote to the Union Pacific Corporation voicing my concerns about the West Phoenix Line (U.P. refers to it simply as "The Wellton Branch").

 

The first time I wrote, back in the early 2000's, I strongly urged them to NOT abandon the line and pull up the rails because, first of all, it could be utilized as an alternate, pop-off valve for the mainline possibly even using directional traffic as the UP had already done in a few other places.

 

 

Second, the line could be used as a fast, intermodal route from west coast points to the rapidly growing Phoenix area.

 

Then, finally, once the line is ripped up it will be permanently and forever lost and could then be replaced only at an astronomically high cost.

 

Well, believe it or not, I actually received a nice reply back from UP from a gentleman whose name I can no longer recall.

 

He dismissed both of my ideas stating that there is little intermodal demand from West Coast points and Phoenix and what little there is can be routed via Picacho Junction.  (That’s a rather circuitous route to say the least and hardly very highway competitive.)

 

Secondly, my idea of using the Phoenix line as a directional route is undesirable since it goes right through downtown Phoenix.

 

However, he did agree with me that abandonment and  salvaging the line would indeed  be short sighted and the UP has no current plans to do that.  Why not?  I suspected that surely, they have something in mind.

 

Then fast forward about 18 years now.  About 3-4 years ago I wrote a second letter stating that as an investor and shareholder, I am dismayed that the Phoenix line has been neglected for so long.   I tried to point out that our biggest competitor now has a thriving intermodal business in the Phoenix area which they are able to serve in spite of a rather slow and circuitous mountain railroad from Williams Junction, AZ.  The UP by then only offered an intermodal “paper ramp” with over the road drayage from Tucson.

 

I stated that, in lieu of our competitor’s efforts, this represents somewhat of an embarrassment.  Guess what?  No response this time.  Could it be that such thoughts had already occurred to higher ups at the UP but they were not ready to make an announcement?  Who knows?  Or, perhaps my letter might’ve helped even though it got no response.

 

I would like to encourage our other members on our list to get involved.  It’s all well and good to discuss things on the forum.  Nothing wrong with that.  However, don’t just discuss stuff amongst ourselves and leave it at that.  It never hurts to write a letter.  All you might lose is the cost of a stamp and a little time.  I also tend to believe that an official, paper letter sent in an envelope can still arouse a better response or impression than an e-mail but that is perhaps only an opinion.

---

 [FC1]

[diningcar]

Looking at a map of Phoenix I find Laveen Village to be south of the Salt River and west of I-10 along Baseline Road. The UP yard with which I am familiar is north of the Salt River near downtown. Assuming I am analyzing correctly the drayage would be over city streets, both between those two locations; and thence further over city streets to connect with customers. Anyone with a better analysis please respond.

[samfp1943]

Fred M Cain

Group,

Check out this line from the TRAINS Magazine new wire:

Union Pacific to open new international intermodal terminal in Phoenix - Trains

Could the reopening of the West Phoenix Line be for behind?  Only thing is, they mentioned "drayage".  It's not completely clear to me if containers moving to Phoenix from West Coast ports would actually move by rail or be drayed?

   Seems like Uncle Pete may be watching and learning from their competitiiion? 

     BNSF aS ALREADYJ Anounced and is starting to build their left coast containjer consolidation operation ( Bakersfield)  and UP was feeling they were victimized?

.Here is a partial lift from the TRAINS Newswire article linked by Mr.Cain:

FTA:"...

“We are excited to offer regional shippers and receivers in Arizona a fast, sustainable rail option to move product into and out of Southern California that is cost competitive and removes trucks from our nation’s congested highways, with an ability to expand offerings and grow in the future,” Kenny Rocker, UP’s executive vice president of marketing and sales, said in a statement.

The new facility will open with drayage support provided by Duncan & Son Lines, a family-owned logistics firm in Buckeye, Ariz., that primarily focuses on international container drayage from the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles. Duncan & Sons will dray all imports to its 25-acre container yard at Laveen Village, Ariz., which is about 15 miles from the terminal.

UP says it will begin daily service between Phoenix and the ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, and its Intermodal Container Transfer Facility in Long Beach during the first quarter of 2024.."

Phoenix area seems like a bit of a stretch, milage-wise;  but I'd bet the brain trust at UPRR, has "veted" this option, as best for 'Uncle Pete'.

I live on the BNSF at Mulvane; and have noted the 'traffic' here, both East, and Westboundm,  has been steadily picking up, in both directions: (since  earLy AM 3 stackers EB and 2 WB; 1 WB -FAK,m and a EB Hopper Train, all rolling at speed. Seems like the doubele tracking between Rose Hill and Augusta, is having the desired results fr BN$F ?

 

[Fred M Cain]

Group,

Check out this line from the TRAINS Magazine new wire:

Union Pacific to open new international intermodal terminal in Phoenix - Trains

Could the reopening of the West Phoenix Line be for behind?  Only thing is, they mentioned "drayage".  It's not completely clear to me if containers moving to Phoenix from West Coast ports would actually move by rail or be drayed?

[Fred M Cain]

azrail

Due to the redeveolpment around Chase Field many of those streets are nonexistant now

azrail,

I moved out of the Phoenix area back in 1980.  During the last year or two I have "flown over" the Salt River Valley using Google Earth.  I don't know whether to be surprised or horrified.  So much of the "Valley" is no longer recognizable to me today.

Anyhow, on the Phoenix Line, here is a nice online article I found.  If you Google for "Amtrak Phoenix" you can find several of them.

https://www.azfamily.com/news/features/planned-amtrak-service-would-connect-phoenix-to-california-las-vegas/article_74e1f4d8-9275-11eb-884c-abc119af0c97.html 

[azrail]

Due to the redeveolpment around Chase Field many of those streets are nonexistant now

[Fred M Cain]

azrail,

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think a few of those downtown grade crossings have been closed.  I can remember when every block had a street that crossed the tracks just east of th depot  and were protected by "wig wag" signals.  Google Earth street views seems to suggest that they've closed some of them off.

[azrail]

Not enough train traffic through downtown Phoenix to warrant a "ditch"-the major streets have over/underpasses over the tracks, plus all of the hassle to move utilities and a baseball stadium that has the UP line behind it.

[Fred M Cain]

Mike,

I recall that back in the late 1960s, the SPTCo was running an average of 40 trains a day through Tucson.  So, if my recollection and your report are correct, daily average counts are down by about 12 trains a day. 

Well four of those daily trains in the late sixties were actually passenger trains so that make a decline of more like 36 to 28 trains a day.

[MikeF90]

Perhaps the City of Phoenix has more on its plate, but downtown redevelopment may be enhanced by a grade separated railroad trench similar to El Paso TX or Reno NV. No more ugly, slow freight trains to deal with!  

Not that UP would use the line more. A report on The Other railfan site indicates that Sunset Route traffic is healthy, about 28 trains a day (EB+WB). Note that these are much longer 'PSR designed' trains which keep capital investment, crew starts and service frequency down.

[Fred M Cain]

Here's an update on the West Phoenix line or the "Wellton Branch" as it's officially known by UP.

As many of you know, Amtrak has come out with an expansion plan that's completely dependent on Biden's so-called "infrastructure" bill getting past and signed into law.

Amtrak came out with this notorius map that shows new lines in light blue which I'm sure some of you have seen.  (It was posted on the TRAINS Magazine New Line)

Well, guess what?  It shows a light blue line running through Phoenix which suggests a restoration of the line.

However, I tried Googling for news on this and found nothing.  We'll have to wait and see what happens but whatever you do, I wouldn't hold your breath and that's for sure !

[Pilawt]

Curious ...

I flew over the West Phoenix branch again yesterday.  A handful of flats are still there near Gillespie, but those miles and miles of autoracks I saw there early last month are all gone.

[mudchicken]

The NITU with first right of service like in the MoDoc case is fairly common. BN did something similar in CO and WA. If you go back and look at the Lassen County deed, it was acquired from UP/SP for trail use under the NITU statutes. (acquired for salvage value, not fair market value.) Under the statute, if a railroad wants to come back on that line, it can force the current owner to sell back to the railroad at a fair price. Not only that, IF they sever the line or sell to another agency or trail operator without STB's knowledge & consent, they forfeit ownership of the trail and any part of that line that was federal grant right of way, was obtained by right of way deed or any other deed with a reversionary clause goes back to that designated owner/ heirs and assigns in the deed. the county and state have zero say in the matter. (and there are plenty of trail operators out there already skating on thin ice.)

[Pilawt]

Here's something of an update on the West Phoenix branch. I flew over it at low altitude yesterday. There is a string of stored autoracks, beginning just west of the wye leading to the nuke plant, and continuing unbroken (except for one dirt road crossing) about eight miles west to Gillespie. If my math is right, that would be, what, about 450+ cars? Then at the west end of the autoracks there's about a half-mile worth of well cars. I'll try to get some photos next time I'm out that way in a few weeks.

[Fred M Cain]

Falcon48

 

It's more likely that, if UP wrote this provision into the contract, it probably did so simply to make clear that the trail agreement met the requirements of the Federal National Trails System Act (NTSA) and the STB decision authorizing trail use.  As I mentioned in my previous notes, it's highly unlikely that UP (or any other major railroad) would deliberately use an NTSA trail as a device to "mothball" a rail corridor for possible future rail use.  If the railroad wants to preserve the possibility of reactivation when it shuts down a rail line, it will obtain "discontinuance" (not "abandonment") authority from STB and leave the tracks in place, a strategy which makes future restoration of rail service at a later date MUCH easier.   

Falcon,

I went searching on Google for that document again and could no longer find it.  What I *DID* find was another online document about the Modoc Rail Trail which stated that the Union Pacific actually SOLD the abandoned right of way to Lassen County back in 2008.  So, I now believe that you are right on this one.

What I'd seen before probably predated '08 when UP still owned the ROW. If they actually owned the ROW it's only natural that they'd want to retain future rail rights.  But in this case they elected not to do that.  The same article also mentioned that during a terrible winter storm year of '97, I think it was, the UP was utilizing the line as a diversion route for storm damaged lines and ran up to 12 trains a day over the line!

Now that it's gone, they may have burned their bridges behind them.

I would like to say here that I have long believed that property taxes are one real reason that motivates railroad companies to dispose of "excess capacity".  I have long suspected that high property taxes are an issue that have gotten little attention in the railroad community but I still believe it's a problem.  Thing is, though, no one knows what to do about it.

 

Regards,

Fred M. Cain

[Falcon48]

blue streak 1

Fred M Cain

 

 

Could it be UP wrote that in to lock in the trail provision ?  Laws can always be changed and some pol might pass a law eliminating the pass back to a RR that he did not want in his back yard ?

 

It's more likely that, if UP wrote this provision into the contract, it probably did so simply to make clear that the trail agreement met the requirements of the Federal National Trails System Act (NTSA) and the STB decision authorizing trail use.  As I mentioned in my previous notes, it's highly unlikely that UP (or any other major railroad) would deliberately use an NTSA trail as a device to "mothball" a rail corridor for possible future rail use.  If the railroad wants to preserve the possibility of reactivation when it shuts down a rail line, it will obtain "discontinuance" (not "abandonment") authority from STB and leave the tracks in place, a strategy which makes future restoration of rail service at a later date MUCH easier.