CSSHEGEWISCH NKP guy After all, as Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good." I wish that some jazz aficianados and critics would remember this quote. There seems to be an increasing amount of cultural snobbery associated with this art form.
NKP guy After all, as Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good."
After all, as Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good."
It seems most people refer to "jazz snobs", when today it seems most comdemnation trickles down from heavy metal fans. This really comes into view on such matters as the NFL's annual choice of halftime performers at the Super Bowl. The message boards become full of displeased hard rockers, who lambast any music outside their chosen genre as "lame".
When you get into defining what is good and bad music, you open Pandora's Box.
Many folks are cocooned into specific genres, with little tolerance for anything else.
If you use the technical complexity of a specific piece of music, you get into a measurable definition of good and bad. But then if you throw in freedom of expression, all technical aspects of the music are moot.
The best way I can describe it is that American society increasingly prefers McDonalds hamburgers to filet mignon. Take that for what it's worth.
Paul_D_North_Jr My source is Stewart Holbrook's The Story of American Railroads.
Excerpt from The Story of American Railroads: From the Iron Horse to the Diesel Locomotive by Stewart H. Holbrook (1947)
The favorites of porters are the professional traveling men, the so-called drummers. They know good service and how to appreciate it. They are usually reasonable in all things and make little trouble. Their tips aren't the largest, but the porter can always bank on a tip and know it will be the regulation amount. Among the drummers, however, as among other classes of travelers, is a pseudo-sophisticated male who addresses all porters as "George" which he seems to believe is an extremely witty reminder of George Mortimer Pullman.*
*The late George M. Dulany (white), a midwest lumberman, did a good deal to eliminate “George” as a generic name for porters. He accomplished this by the wide publicity accorded his Society for the Prevention of Calling Pullman Porters George, a no dues lodge Mr. Dulany carried on for many years at his own expense and to his vast enjoyment. He told me once that he had “converted” more than 10,000 Americans to his contention that Pullman porters should be addressed as Porter and not as George. Today, only congenital hicks use “George.”
Paul_D_North_Jr daveklepper . . . Pullman porters were called George simiply because it was George Pullman that started the company and for no other reason. Never heard them called "boy" by any passenger, ever. I don't recall any Pullman porter saying he resented being called George. Apparently some did, because a traveling salesman started an association named something like "Society for the Prevention of Calling Pullman Porters "George". My source is Stewart Holbrook's The Story of American Railroads. If it wasn't so late and I didn't have so much else to do, I'd go and look it up and cite it chapter and verse. Maybe after the AREMA conference next week . . . - PDN.
daveklepper . . . Pullman porters were called George simiply because it was George Pullman that started the company and for no other reason. Never heard them called "boy" by any passenger, ever. I don't recall any Pullman porter saying he resented being called George.
Apparently some did, because a traveling salesman started an association named something like "Society for the Prevention of Calling Pullman Porters "George". My source is Stewart Holbrook's The Story of American Railroads. If it wasn't so late and I didn't have so much else to do, I'd go and look it up and cite it chapter and verse. Maybe after the AREMA conference next week . . .
- PDN.
WikipediaThe Society for the Prevention of Calling Sleeping Car Porters "George" (SPCSCPG) was founded as a joke by lumber baron George W. Dulany in 1914. Membership was open to all those whose first or last name was George. Its first president was Admiral George Dewey, and George Ade was another early member. Dulany's secretary filled out and mailed more than 45,000 membership cards to people named "George" throughout the world, before Dulany retired from public life. At the time, railway sleeping car porters in the United States were commonly referred to by the name "George" regardless of their actual name. The appellation may have stemmed from the name of George Pullman of the Pullman Company, which at one time manufactured and operated a large proportion of all the sleeping cars in North America. Porters were almost exclusively black, and the practice presumably derived from the old custom of naming slaves after their masters, in this case porters being regarded as servants of George Pullman. Although the SPCSCPG was more interested in defending the dignity of its white members, than in achieving any measure of racial justice, it nevertheless had some effects for all porters. In 1926 the SPCSCPG persuaded the Pullman Company to install small racks in each car, displaying a card with the given name of the porter on duty. Of the 12,000 porters and waiters then working for Pullman, only 362 turned out to be named George. At its peak, the society had 31,000 members. It claimed to include several prominent Georges as members, such as King George V of the United Kingdom, American baseball player George Herman "Babe" Ruth, and French politician Georges Clemenceau.
At the time, railway sleeping car porters in the United States were commonly referred to by the name "George" regardless of their actual name. The appellation may have stemmed from the name of George Pullman of the Pullman Company, which at one time manufactured and operated a large proportion of all the sleeping cars in North America. Porters were almost exclusively black, and the practice presumably derived from the old custom of naming slaves after their masters, in this case porters being regarded as servants of George Pullman.
Although the SPCSCPG was more interested in defending the dignity of its white members, than in achieving any measure of racial justice, it nevertheless had some effects for all porters. In 1926 the SPCSCPG persuaded the Pullman Company to install small racks in each car, displaying a card with the given name of the porter on duty. Of the 12,000 porters and waiters then working for Pullman, only 362 turned out to be named George.
At its peak, the society had 31,000 members. It claimed to include several prominent Georges as members, such as King George V of the United Kingdom, American baseball player George Herman "Babe" Ruth, and French politician Georges Clemenceau.
So the reality of the Society is that it didn't eminate from the angst of the Pullman Porters, but from those individuals who weren't Porters but had George in their name.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
[quote user="Paul_D_North_Jr"]
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Always willing to learn.
A tip of my top hat to switch7frg for the best idea and invitation I've had in a while: just wait till I get my tuxedo pressed.
Thanks BLS53 for the point about folk song-inspired railroad songs, compared to the Tin Pan Alley type. I fully agree.
Importantly, listeners don't have to choose between one kind and another: we can enjoy and like all kinds of railroad songs and music.
zugmann Norm48327 I would hope so. At least then it was still music and not the 'noise' of today. There's plenty of good music across all genres and all time periods.
Norm48327 I would hope so. At least then it was still music and not the 'noise' of today.
There's plenty of good music across all genres and all time periods.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Each generation features they had the 'only good music', however, most all music is good - it is just different for each generation.
Norm48327I would hope so. At least then it was still music and not the 'noise' of today.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
M636C To get the thread back to the original intent, my reading is that the theme of the Trains article was "traditional" and "folk" music extending to "Country and Western" genres. Even the feature article on Steve Goodman's "City of New Orleans" was a song that had its roots in folk music. On the other hand, "Chattanooga Cho Choo" and "Take the "A" Train" have their origins in the Tin Pan Alley tradition of popular music, so commercial rather than in the folk tradition. This doesn't mean that these songs are of less merit, just that they have a different background. "Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe" is clearly in the Broadway Musical tradition, but is in no way traditional. I myself am a great fan of the last. My father would burst into the chorus at the drop of a hat, and the opening of "The Harvey Girls" from the titles up to the end of the big production number is truly a work of art. Virtually the whole cast marching alongside a real train is something to be seen, ending a sequence tied together with the words of the song. But it was a Broadway production number, not a traditional folk tune. But may I venture to suggest that "Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe" does not need "Trains" support, even though it is relatively unknown to many of today's readers. I was impressed that the Duke Ellington video of "The A Train" was set in a fairly complete mock up of a 1930s Pullman section car. Duke Ellington used to provide a musical interlude on the BBC radio "Goon Show" written by Spike Milligan, a sort of 1950s version of "Monty Python". Only yesterday I saw an advertisement for a show by the Glenn Miller Band here in Canberra Australia: none of those involved looked as if they had been there in 1944 ..... Peter
To get the thread back to the original intent, my reading is that the theme of the Trains article was "traditional" and "folk" music extending to "Country and Western" genres. Even the feature article on Steve Goodman's "City of New Orleans" was a song that had its roots in folk music.
On the other hand, "Chattanooga Cho Choo" and "Take the "A" Train" have their origins in the Tin Pan Alley tradition of popular music, so commercial rather than in the folk tradition. This doesn't mean that these songs are of less merit, just that they have a different background. "Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe" is clearly in the Broadway Musical tradition, but is in no way traditional.
I myself am a great fan of the last. My father would burst into the chorus at the drop of a hat, and the opening of "The Harvey Girls" from the titles up to the end of the big production number is truly a work of art. Virtually the whole cast marching alongside a real train is something to be seen, ending a sequence tied together with the words of the song. But it was a Broadway production number, not a traditional folk tune. But may I venture to suggest that "Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe" does not need "Trains" support, even though it is relatively unknown to many of today's readers.
I was impressed that the Duke Ellington video of "The A Train" was set in a fairly complete mock up of a 1930s Pullman section car. Duke Ellington used to provide a musical interlude on the BBC radio "Goon Show" written by Spike Milligan, a sort of 1950s version of "Monty Python".
Only yesterday I saw an advertisement for a show by the Glenn Miller Band here in Canberra Australia: none of those involved looked as if they had been there in 1944 .....
Peter
Goodman's City of New Orleans is most definitely a folk song. I don't know any other genre that it relates to.
Chattanooga Choo Choo is a novelty song in the swing genre.
Take the "A" Train: Everything composed by Duke Ellington and his collaborator Billy Strayhorn, is steeped in the jazz tradition, and generally held in higher esteem than most other popular music of that era. Along with Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, and some others, these songs today are considered jazz standards and performed regularly by contemporary jazz musicians.
tree68M636C Heck - there's some rock bands like that, just move the years involved to the sixties...
Heck - there's some rock bands like that, just move the years involved to the sixties...
I would hope so. At least then it was still music and not the 'noise' of today.
Norm
NKP, I got my Porkpie hat , my single lapel Zoot suit and my black tip spectator shoes. Lets go swingin at the uptown Ballroom. HOO HAH Saterday nite.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
M636C... none of those involved looked as if they had been there in 1944 .....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
NKP, Glenn Miller also has a memorial stone, properly a cenotaph (a marker for an empty grave) in Arlington National Cemetery.
Harry James said it best when he called him "the immortal Glenn Miller."
Firelock76Some say the AAF band was the best Glenn Miller had, but that depends on who you talk to. My late father-in-law, a BIG Glenn Miller fan, thought the pre-war band was better, but the AAF band was still good in it's own right.
Yale University is proud of its association with Glenn Miller; it was there that Miller formed the 418th AAF Band out of musicians from all over the country and gave concerts and radio broadcasts. The AAF Band under Miller performed at Woolsey Hall at Yale; the gigantic American flag that was sometimes displayed there when the band was performing was found a few years ago and is now called the "Miller" flag and displayed on special occassions. While in New Haven, Glenn Miller lived at the nearby Taft Hotel, but it seems after a year and a half at Yale he tired of his domestic assignment and asked to be posted overseas, closer to the fighting men. He soon was, and six months later his plane disappeared over the English Channel.
Across the street from Woolsey Hall is Grove Street Cemetery, where a number of distinguished Americans are buried. Although Glenn Miller has no grave, at Grove Street he has a suitable black granite memorial stone.
Seventy-two years after his death, this deceased gentleman and patriot is still selling records and still remembered as an avatar of his day. That's not a bad legacy.
I did a little research on the authors of "Chattanooga Choo-Choo," Harry Warren, music, and Mack Gordon, lyrics.
Harry Warren, born Salvatore Guaragna, and Harry Warren, born Morris Gittler, were both New York City kids, one Italian, one Jewish. Since they were both urbanites I think it's same to assume the term "boy" in the song is strictly a generic one, not a racist put-down, as Euclid said in his post and Dave Klepper said in his. And David, instead of "grits and eggs" how about "steak and eggs?" I'm not so sure those folks in Israel have any idea what grits are.
People who are offended by "boy" in "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" are just looking to be offended, by something, anything. They're not happy unless they have something to complain about.
And when in doubt, refer to my post linking Gene Wilder in "Young Frankenstein."
"Pardon me boy, is this the Transylvania Station?"
Getting to Samfp1943's question on the size of Major Miller's Army Air Force Band, at it's maximum size it indeed had 50 members, 21 of which were a string section, which needless to say his pre-war dance band didn't have.
Some say the AAF band was the best Glenn Miller had, but that depends on who you talk to. My late father-in-law, a BIG Glenn Miller fan, thought the pre-war band was better, but the AAF band was still good in it's own right.
daveklepperBoy clearly mean a youngster, not any one of a specific color of skin.
Yes.
All of the references to racist connotations are framed around calling a grown black man a boy as a putdown. But it seems to me that the term “boy” was applied to shoe shine boys, newspaper boys, delivery boys, etc. because they were in fact boys and not grown men. You can’t belittle a boy by calling him a boy.
Pardon me young male person, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo?
What would you substitute for "boy" in the song? I can see Track number nine substituted for track twenty-nine, while keeping the rhythm and melody, but what would one subsitute for Boy? Man? Parden me, man? Parden me, sir?
In Manhattan as a teenager, delvery people may have been of any shade of color, even an oriental, but all were collectively "boys." Sometimes my mother would try to dignify one with the title "youg man," but that was exceptional. And I never heard anyone in my family or our circle of friends and relatives call a grown Afro-American "boy," always addressed as any other person. Boy clearly means a youngster, not any one of a specific color of skin.
Pullman porters were called George simiply because it was George Pullman that started the company and for no other reason. Never heard them called "boy" by any passenger, ever. I don't recall any Pullman porter saying he resented being called George.
Paul of Covington All this talk about the word "boy"-- I never associated it with race. Back in those years shoe-shine boys frequently were actually boys of any race, as were newspaper boys and delivery boys. Remember when many small grocery stores used to have groceries delivered by boys on bicycles?
All this talk about the word "boy"-- I never associated it with race. Back in those years shoe-shine boys frequently were actually boys of any race, as were newspaper boys and delivery boys. Remember when many small grocery stores used to have groceries delivered by boys on bicycles?
I first heard it as being described as racist, when in the late 1960's an old St. Louis sportswriter had a habit of calling Cardinals players, "boys". At that time, much of the Cardinals roster was Black, and this was still in the heart of the Civil Rights Movement. A couple of star players (now Hall of Famers) called him out on the issue.
All part of the turbulent 60's.
BLS53's last post reminded me of something I hadn't thought about in years.
When I was in college at Glassboro State in the 70's the music majors had am orchestra they called "The Lab Band" and one of their specialties was swing, and they were good!
They played at all the dances we had and although their repetoire included many selections, they got the biggest reactions and most feet on the floor when they played the swing tunes. Isn't that something?
It's almost like the theme of those dances could have been "Tonight We're Gonna Party Like It's 1939!"
tree68 NKP guy May I see a show of hands from those who wish they could for a little while revisit those days and those hotels to hear these two great bands once again? We've been lucky here with a local band that does swing. My daughter's high school band teacher was part of it, and that type of music found its way into the high school band's repetoire.
NKP guy May I see a show of hands from those who wish they could for a little while revisit those days and those hotels to hear these two great bands once again?
We've been lucky here with a local band that does swing. My daughter's high school band teacher was part of it, and that type of music found its way into the high school band's repetoire.
Most high school bands rely on swing music to some extent. Let's face it, not much of contemporary music is adaptable to the big band/orchestra format.
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Regarding WWII and its songs, I did grow up during that period. WWII was terrible and Hitler was terrible and the Japs of the period did terrible things. But there were some good songs. Chattanooga Choo Choo has long been a favorite of mine, although in Israel I do change "ham-and-eggs" to "gritts-and-eggs" for my Orthodox audience, and non-rail songs like Off-we-go, and Over Hill, The White Cliffs of Dover, On the Road to Mandalay. The war also preserved a number of interurban and streetcar and local train operations that I was able to visit and in one case use regularly (Broadway-42nd Street) that otherwise would have disappeared before I could ride and photograph them.
And Old-97 was not included in the article. Its origins are of interest, certainly. Still, I enjoyed and appreciated the article for what it is.
BaltACDThe USSR had more internal issues among it's union of socialist republics, that really weren't interested in that 'union'; as we found out when the USSR collapsed.
Oh yeah, it's amazing what was revealed when that Iron Curtain finally collapsed.
Firelock76A swastika makes me shudder. So does a "Hammer and Sickle."
RE: the Hammer & Sickle - what we didn't know when we were hiding under our school desks during the Nuclear Air Raids - The USSR had more internal issues among it's unon of socialist republics, that really weren't interested in that 'union'; as we found out when the USSR collapsed.
Thanks for the feedback NKP Guy! At least I'm not crazy for thinking the way I do.
I'll tell you, it's really no mystery, to me anyway, that the "Nostalgia Craze" hit, and hit hard, in the 1970's considering the turmoil of the previous decade.
And I think anyone marching down the street in the post-war years with a Nazi flag would have been pummelled beyond recognition. But, this is still the United States of America, we do have the right to free speech no matter how noxious we may think it is. Doesn't mean we have to listen though.
And as a history buff, I'd have to say whether I get angry at the sight of a swastika or not depends on the context. On the tail of a restored Luftwaffe aircraft or at a World War Two re-enactment, no. In the hands of some jokers who don't know what National Socialism was really all about, yes.
What an evil genius Hitler was. He wanted a symbol for the Nazi party that was bold, simple, striking, and once you saw it you never forgot it. How right he was, in that respect anyway.
A swastika makes me shudder. So does a "Hammer and Sickle."
cat992cSome very famous music was missed out.Make that totally ignored.
Likely that is because it was the author's prerogative to decide what it was he intended to report on? You could always write an article for submission listing materials you find significant, and see if if get's published.
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