Electroliner 1935 tree68 You do realize that your personal vehicle may well be recording what you are doing while you're driving.... Shades of Aldus Huckly's Brave New World. Big Brother IS watching.
tree68 You do realize that your personal vehicle may well be recording what you are doing while you're driving....
Shades of Aldus Huckly's Brave New World. Big Brother IS watching.
However, just for clarification (not nitpicking), in case other members would like to benefit from reading two very thought-provoking books, the term Big Brother is from George Orwell's prophetic masterpiece 1984, written in 1949; whereas Brave New World was written by Aldous Huxley in 1931.
zardozBut just for clarification, in case other members would like to benefit from reading two very thought-provoking books, the term Big Brother is from George Orwell's prophetic masterpiece 1984; whereas Brave New World was written by Aldous Huxley in 1931.
I was afraid I might have reversed the reference. They both seem to have relevance in todays world. Thanks for the correction.
zardoz Electroliner 1935 tree68 Shades of Aldus Huckly's Brave New World. Big Brother IS watching. I totaly agree, and your point is well taken. However, just for clarification (not nitpicking), in case other members would like to benefit from reading two very thought-provoking books, the term Big Brother is from George Orwell's prophetic masterpiece 1984, written in 1949; whereas Brave New World was written by Aldous Huxley in 1931.
Electroliner 1935 tree68 Shades of Aldus Huckly's Brave New World. Big Brother IS watching.
tree68
I totaly agree, and your point is well taken.
But who is watching Big Brother?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDBut who is watching Big Brother?
You may find the answer to that question in "Animal Farm."
"All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others..."
Yes - I had to read it in 9th grade.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Electroliner 1935 zardoz But just for clarification, in case other members would like to benefit from reading two very thought-provoking books, the term Big Brother is from George Orwell's prophetic masterpiece 1984; whereas Brave New World was written by Aldous Huxley in 1931. I was afraid I might have reversed the reference. They both seem to have relevance in todays world. Thanks for the correction.
zardoz But just for clarification, in case other members would like to benefit from reading two very thought-provoking books, the term Big Brother is from George Orwell's prophetic masterpiece 1984; whereas Brave New World was written by Aldous Huxley in 1931.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Euclid tree68 I don't know if you've seen the Japanese "point" system, wherein employees (including engineers/drivers) point at those things they need to take note of before taking an action. For an engineer, that might be an upcoming trackside signal, an in-cab signal indication (if so equipped), the signal as represented on a chart on the cab wall, and the speedometer. In theory, this shows that the engineer is aware of all of those factors. In reality, I feel it just means that he looked and pointed at them - there is no indication that he actually recognized them for what they are... I am intrigued by the Japanese point-and-call safety system. They say that users must often overcome a feeling of embarrassment when first using it. I would say the closest thing in U.S. railroad practice to point-and-call is calling out signals. But point-and-call is more than just confirming to others that you understand a safety-critical operational detail. It is also a way for the person performing this drill to reinforce their own attention to the critical task at hand. The rule requires a conscious action of pointing at a detail and calling out the required action. This conscientious hard focusing of the mind mandated by the rules prevents a person from drifting into a critical task with their consciousness scattered in a daydream-like state of mind as they approach the task. The point-and-call system is a memorized, habitual drill routine that is there like a permanent structure to pull the mind into one-pointed focus at every step where that mindset is critically necessary. They claim that testing shows that it makes a big improvement in preventing accidents. It is interesting that they find that people are often embarrassed by using point-and-call. I would say that that embarrassment flows from a lax attitude that creates a degree of indifference toward safety. The discomfort is the point-and-call technique challenging that indifference.
tree68 I don't know if you've seen the Japanese "point" system, wherein employees (including engineers/drivers) point at those things they need to take note of before taking an action. For an engineer, that might be an upcoming trackside signal, an in-cab signal indication (if so equipped), the signal as represented on a chart on the cab wall, and the speedometer. In theory, this shows that the engineer is aware of all of those factors. In reality, I feel it just means that he looked and pointed at them - there is no indication that he actually recognized them for what they are...
For an engineer, that might be an upcoming trackside signal, an in-cab signal indication (if so equipped), the signal as represented on a chart on the cab wall, and the speedometer. In theory, this shows that the engineer is aware of all of those factors. In reality, I feel it just means that he looked and pointed at them - there is no indication that he actually recognized them for what they are...
I am intrigued by the Japanese point-and-call safety system. They say that users must often overcome a feeling of embarrassment when first using it. I would say the closest thing in U.S. railroad practice to point-and-call is calling out signals.
But point-and-call is more than just confirming to others that you understand a safety-critical operational detail. It is also a way for the person performing this drill to reinforce their own attention to the critical task at hand.
The rule requires a conscious action of pointing at a detail and calling out the required action. This conscientious hard focusing of the mind mandated by the rules prevents a person from drifting into a critical task with their consciousness scattered in a daydream-like state of mind as they approach the task.
The point-and-call system is a memorized, habitual drill routine that is there like a permanent structure to pull the mind into one-pointed focus at every step where that mindset is critically necessary.
They claim that testing shows that it makes a big improvement in preventing accidents.
It is interesting that they find that people are often embarrassed by using point-and-call. I would say that that embarrassment flows from a lax attitude that creates a degree of indifference toward safety. The discomfort is the point-and-call technique challenging that indifference.
I do find that calling signals (or anything else) out loud makes me remember it better than if I did not. Even if my Engineer doesn't respond I still continue to do it throughout the trip.
As for the Huxley/Orwell part of this thread, a main point of all those stories is that giving more power and monitoring ability to the authorities at the top is a bad thing. Maybe we as a society have to live out that lesson to learn it, unfortunately.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70M-2Dude- "Maybe we as a society have to live out that lesson to learn it, unfortunately."
I'm afraid you may be correct. This likely cannot be stopped ...not good.
EuclidI would say that that embarrassment flows from a lax attitude that creates a degree of indifference toward safety. The discomfort is the point-and-call technique challenging that indifference.
Or, just perhaps it's because it is a direct challenge to ones caring about safety - ie, "we don't trust you to be safe, so we have to make you go through this (silly) routine." Like I don't know enough to look both ways before I cross the street (or the tracks).
I suspect that if you were to use the pointing routine before crossing the street at a busy city intersection, you'd get a lot of funny looks, and maybe even be made fun of.
Note, too, that in all of the instances I saw, it was an individual acting alone. There was no interface with another employee, ie, calling signals across the cab.
tree68 Euclid Or, just perhaps it's because it is a direct challenge to ones caring about safety - ie, "we don't trust you to be safe, so we have to make you go through this (silly) routine." Like I don't know enough to look both ways before I cross the street (or the tracks). I suspect that if you were to use the pointing routine before crossing the street at a busy city intersection, you'd get a lot of funny looks, and maybe even be made fun of. Note, too, that in all of the instances I saw, it was an individual acting alone. There was no interface with another employee, ie, calling signals across the cab.
Euclid
CSX rules require crews to call signals and other operating conditions over the road radio channel as they are encountered. This is great and unobstrusive on low to moderate volume lines and keeps all employees that monitor the road radio channel for the territory informed in real time of the movements that are taking place in their 'hearing range'.
On high volume lines with lots of trains and lots of MofW work areas the road radio channel become a never ending bable of noise, trains calling signals, defect detectors announcing and reporting their results, MofW Flagmen communicating instructions and receiving the read back of those instructions and 1001 other communications that end up on the road radio channel.
Not all carriers rules require calling signals on the road radio channel.
Point and call is a practice of acting alone to self-reinforce a conscious decision. If it were done in the presence of others with a stake in the safety, perhaps they too would benefit. I would say the same effect comes from calling signals. While the main point is to call signals to someone else to remind them and receive affirmation from them, the effect will also be to affirm it in the mind of the first to call. In that part of affirming to yourself, it is identical to point and call.
The embarrassment associated with using point and call flows from feeling silly or demeaned because it implies that a trainman needs a crutch to do their job safely. It is a common reaction to any new safety device. It was a widespread reaction by nineteenth century brakemen being told to use link and pin coupler safety paddles. They felt than no capable brakeman needed to use a sissy safety paddle.
But I suggest that it is that very attitude of being in a competition to prove no need for safety practice that leads to accidents. I have seen less experienced equipment operators who seem to have an attitude of busting a bronco to prove they can make the machine submit to their wishes. That is their idea of being a good operator. People with that attitude are not going to want to do point and call. A good operator respects the machine and treats it like a trusted friend.
I would say that the bad equipment operator or a brakeman refusing to use a coupling paddle is just like a person who rejects point and call because they feel it is beneath them.
But to a responsible person, point and call is a kind of theater of confidence and competence. It has a very specific and tangible mental purpose. It is a memorized drill that is habitually performed for specific selected tasks. It is a conscious call to clear the mind. And the conscious call itself begins the clearing process. Those who use it routinely are not embarrassed by it. And it is apparently very constructive in preventing accidents rather than just a superfluous habit. It can become mindless habit to those who treat it like the bad equipment operator. But, obviously, the Japanese trainmen respect the system and treat it like their friend. It won’t work otherwise.
I have used point and call before I ever heard there was such a system. In times of needing to make very important conscious decisions, the practice of point and call comes naturally because it is constructive and makes sense. It serves a purpose.
EuclidI have used point and call before I ever heard there was such a system. In times of needing to make very important conscious decisions, the practice of point and call comes naturally because it is constructive and makes sense. It serves a purpose.
How did you use point and call?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Euclid I have used point and call before I ever heard there was such a system. In times of needing to make very important conscious decisions, the practice of point and call comes naturally because it is constructive and makes sense. It serves a purpose. How did you use point and call?
Euclid I have used point and call before I ever heard there was such a system. In times of needing to make very important conscious decisions, the practice of point and call comes naturally because it is constructive and makes sense. It serves a purpose.
I have used it to make sure I don't forget to do something important before leaving the house. I just point at different things and say, "that's done" for each one I point at. It tends to be things that I do routinely and don't want to overlook them. It seems like a natural thing to do. I'll bet everybody does it in certain cases. I have never thought about it before, but it is precisely like the point and call safety system.
Murphy SidingI point at the car and say "I'm an excellent driver" and "Kmart sucks". (Sorry man, the made me do it.)
Don't worry, Sears will close it soon.
Point and call was developed as a natural extension of the task of calling signals.
A 1994 study by the Railway Technical Research Instituteshowed that pointing and calling reduced mistakes by almost 85 percent when doing a simple task.
Why call signals? Won’t people just make it a mindless routine without actually cognizing the signal aspect?
Is the signal calling requirement an insult that says a person is not smart enough to see and understand a signal without verbalizing it?
Why do you think airline pilots have their checklists read out loud by one pilot while the tasks are performed by the other pilot? That, incidentally is recorded and preserved on the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder.
Do you think they are embarassed or insulted?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Why do you think airline pilots have their checklists read out loud by one pilot while the tasks are performed by the other pilot? That, incidentally is recorded and preserved on the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder. Do you think they are embarassed or insulted?
No, I am advocating point and call, not criticizing it. The questions I asked about being embarrased or insulted are rhetorical questions directed to others who have cited being embarassed or insulted if forced to use point and call; or to others who believe that point and call often becomes mindless repetition with no effect of focusing the mind on the safety of the task at hand.
Mea Culpa
My thought is that anything that is done over and over and over again will eventually become nearly automatic, with little actual cognizance of what is going on (think 'highway hypnosis'). Mile after mile of saying "clear" at each signal gets old real fast, although it is a good way to be sure that the other person is awake.
My prefered method of operation was that other person in the cab was to call out anything out of the ordinary, such as: an approach signal, yellow or red flags, slow orders, etc.
However, if there is only one person in the cab, then I understand how the pointing and calling system would be useful.
zardozMy thought is that anything that is done over and over and over again will eventually become nearly automatic, with little actual cognizance of what is going on (think 'highway hypnosis'). Mile after mile of saying "clear" at each signal gets old real fast, although it is a good way to be sure that the other person is awake.
Around here, not only is the signal indication called, but the railroad landmark (ie, CP235, Automatic 241 plus the track and direction of travel), so its not just rote.
But my feeling on "point and call" is also that after a while it will just be a show for the camera. Point here, point there, continue on in a daze. Hence my mention of the engineer blowing for crossings in his sleep.
The point and call system does require an attitude of cooperation by employees who believe in the purpose and benefit of the system. Employees who resent management or do not like their job are unlikely to use the point and call system in a way that is effective.
This is because there is no way that a supervisor can confirm whether an employee using point and call is doing so conscientiously or just faking it by going through the motions as an automatic response while sleeping or day dreaming. But with a proper sincere attitude, there is no way that an employee would let point and call become a meaningless repetition with no constructive result.
Maybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
Euclid just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
How the hell do you sleep on the alerter?
Some of their procedures (not necessarily anything discussed so far) while good ideas, get twisted so as to give the appearance of being proactive about safety while having loop holes big enough to get someone hurt. Or worse. A limited few seem to be more about the chance to hand out discipline. So I don't understand why any employee might have have a bad attitude or not be accepting of inward facing cameras with open arms.
Jeff
They are called microsleeps your body is so tired it goes to sleep but responds to stuff it knows it has to. They think the crash in TX a couple years ago between those 2 BNSF stack trains was the result of a microsleeping crew on one of the trains. You can look wide awake yet your brain is in lala land.
zugmann Euclid just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter. How the hell do you sleep on the alerter?
For example, let's say the alerter has a recycle time of 2 minutes. I know that if I just passed a clear signal, and I know the next signal is 2 miles away and I can see that it also is clear, and I know that by going 30mph it will take me almost 4 minutes to get to the next signal, and that there are no grade crossings, then I know I can take a 2-3 minute nap and that the alerter will wake me in pleanty of time.
A FEW DAYS IN THE LIFE OF AN EXTRA BOARD EMPLOYEEOf course this no way to run a railroad; but consider this: after being so busy you cannot lay off for any reason, and/or misled by the crew callers regarding how much time you will have off before the next call for duty, and based on the callers' info, you take a few hours to take care of much-needed personal business, and no sooner do you lay down and the phone rings--yes, it's the caller sending you out on the road again.
The previous scenario happens all too frequently. On duty 12 hours, then try to get a few hours sleep while laying over in a cheap hotel, then back on duty for another 10-12 hours, then home for maybe 6 hours before the phone rings again, and back out you go. Rinse and repeat. After a few of those you're getting rather deprived of sleep.
But out you go. No choice. So by now, those 2-3 minute 'alerter naps' are quite helpful; the impulse to sleep is too overwhelming to ignore. Oh, and good luck staying awake on the drive home.
zardozBut out you go. No choice. So by now, those 2-3 minute 'alerter naps' are quite helpful; the impulse to sleep is too overwhelming to ignore. Oh, and good luck staying awake on the drive home.
And I get RFEs telling me I am wasting my talents working yards/local. You can keep that hotel and road crap. I'm happy with my little GPs, industries, and yard. Oh yeah, and my own bed at night/day.
“Sleeping on the alerter” is just an expression of the irony of sleeping on a machine that is supposed to keep you awake. It is also a way to describe being so tired that you can essentially reset the alerter in your sleep.
That defeats the alerter in the same way an employee could defeat point and call by performing it without any conscious attention to it.
EuclidMaybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
How do you determine (through a camera) sincerity wtih "... an employee could defeat point and call by performing it without any conscious attention to it. "?
Seems you want it both ways.
I'm not a huge fan of "let's just take this practice someone else does, shoehorn it into our operations, and all will be good!". I know it's hard to believe, but we aren't all the same out here. EAch of us has our own way of safely doing the job. Maybe point and call works for some. Awesome. But for others - it's a stupid waste of time, and they are fully capable of running a train safely without it. But when you have managers that never sat in the engine cab before they put on their crisp white shirt, and never laid a hand on a switch handle or throttle, what do you expect?
Just turns into a giant game of Simon Says.
zugmann Euclid Maybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter. But do they want that information revealed and/or acknowledged?
Euclid Maybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
But do they want that information revealed and/or acknowledged?
I assume they would. I can't think of any reason why they would not.
EuclidI assume they would. I can't think of any reason why they would not.
You're quick. I edited my thoughts to be more complete.
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