The CROR in Canada has you calling MANY things in the cab. CRO Rule 34.
CN's radio rules in Western Canada. These fall under CRO Rule 578 for the most part. Special Instructions add and take away in certain cases/locations.
On the radio:
- the signal indication and location on approach to a CONTROLLED LOCATION. Usually announced by using the train # for ID.
Example: CN 315 Clear to Stop to Deer.
- your location (mile you're at), direction of travel, leading engine ID at every mile post ending in a 5 (whole #). If you have any slow orders, foreman, crossing messages etc. in the next 10 miles you announce those as well.
Example: CN 2305 East, Mile 75, No Restrictions
Example: CN 2305 East, Mile 65, Rule 43 (Slow order) at mile 58.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
zardoz wrote the following post an hour ago:
zugmann zardoz You can keep that hotel and road crap. I'm happy with my little GPs, industries, and yard. Oh yeah, and my own bed at night/day.
zardoz You can keep that hotel and road crap. I'm happy with my little GPs, industries, and yard. Oh yeah, and my own bed at night/day.
jeffhergertCalling signals between crewmembers in the cab has been a rule requirement at least since the 1920s. (The oldest rule book I have with the requirement is a 1923 Ann Arbor rule book. The few rule books I have that are older don't have it. Later ones do, most under Rule 34.)
I just checked, and the Uniform Code of Operating Rules dated August 25, 1951, which would be the rule book the CPR operated under, has calling signals as Rule 34.
Thanks for that info Jeff, I did not know that rule was in place back in steam days.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
zugmann You can keep that hotel and road crap. I'm happy with my little GPs, industries, and yard. Oh yeah, and my own bed at night/day.
You can keep that hotel and road crap. I'm happy with my little GPs, industries, and yard. Oh yeah, and my own bed at night/day.
Ulrich Going back to 1982 and my ride alongs on CP's Thompson, BC sub , I remember engineer and brakemen calling out signals as they approached.
Going back to 1982 and my ride alongs on CP's Thompson, BC sub , I remember engineer and brakemen calling out signals as they approached.
Ulrich Going back to 1982 and my ride alongs on CP's Thompson, BC sub , I remember engineer and brakemen calling out signals as they approached. Given the amount of responsibility and the potential for catastrophic loss due to any misunderstanding, this practice seems like a good idea to me.
Going back to 1982 and my ride alongs on CP's Thompson, BC sub , I remember engineer and brakemen calling out signals as they approached. Given the amount of responsibility and the potential for catastrophic loss due to any misunderstanding, this practice seems like a good idea to me.
Calling signals between crewmembers in the cab has been a rule requirement at least since the 1920s. (The oldest rule book I have with the requirement is a 1923 Ann Arbor rule book. The few rule books I have that are older don't have it. Later ones do, most under Rule 34.)
Some railroads require calling some or all signals over the radio. This cab be good and bad. Good because it gives you an idea of what's happening ahead of you. Bad because in some areas where there's already heavy radio traffic someone calling a signal might "walk" over a more important radio transmission.
Jeff
UlrichGiven the amount of responsibility and the potential for catastrophic loss due to any misunderstanding, this practice seems like a good idea to me.
Which practice; calling signals or point and call as applied in Japan?
zugmann Euclid Maybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter. How do you determine (through a camera) sincerity wtih "... an employee could defeat point and call by performing it without any conscious attention to it. "? Seems you want it both ways. I'm not a huge fan of "let's just take this practice someone else does, shoehorn it into our operations, and all will be good!". I know it's hard to believe, but we aren't all the same out here. EAch of us has our own way of safely doing the job. Maybe point and call works for some. Awesome. But for others - it's a stupid waste of time, and they are fully capable of running a train safely without it. But when you have managers that never sat in the engine cab before they put on their crisp white shirt, and never laid a hand on a switch handle or throttle, what do you expect? Just turns into a giant game of Simon Says.
Euclid Maybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
How do you determine (through a camera) sincerity wtih "... an employee could defeat point and call by performing it without any conscious attention to it. "?
Seems you want it both ways.
I'm not a huge fan of "let's just take this practice someone else does, shoehorn it into our operations, and all will be good!". I know it's hard to believe, but we aren't all the same out here. EAch of us has our own way of safely doing the job. Maybe point and call works for some. Awesome. But for others - it's a stupid waste of time, and they are fully capable of running a train safely without it. But when you have managers that never sat in the engine cab before they put on their crisp white shirt, and never laid a hand on a switch handle or throttle, what do you expect?
Just turns into a giant game of Simon Says.
Well maybe point and call would provide benefit as a kind of safety net to catch those who are not fully capable of running a train safely without it. I certainly agree that not every person is the same. Some people can focus their attention to the task at hand with great precision and reliability.
I do not know what kind of relationship operators and managers have on Japanese railroads. But on railroads where the relationship is highly adversarial, I can’t see point and call working. Either employees will not put the proper effort into it, or management will believe they are not doing so. So, the system is dead on arrival where the adversarial relationship exists.
EuclidI assume they would. I can't think of any reason why they would not.
You're quick. I edited my thoughts to be more complete.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Euclid Maybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter. But do they want that information revealed and/or acknowledged?
But do they want that information revealed and/or acknowledged?
I assume they would. I can't think of any reason why they would not.
EuclidMaybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
zugmann Euclid just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter. How the hell do you sleep on the alerter?
Euclid just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
How the hell do you sleep on the alerter?
“Sleeping on the alerter” is just an expression of the irony of sleeping on a machine that is supposed to keep you awake. It is also a way to describe being so tired that you can essentially reset the alerter in your sleep.
That defeats the alerter in the same way an employee could defeat point and call by performing it without any conscious attention to it.
zardozBut out you go. No choice. So by now, those 2-3 minute 'alerter naps' are quite helpful; the impulse to sleep is too overwhelming to ignore. Oh, and good luck staying awake on the drive home.
And I get RFEs telling me I am wasting my talents working yards/local. You can keep that hotel and road crap. I'm happy with my little GPs, industries, and yard. Oh yeah, and my own bed at night/day.
For example, let's say the alerter has a recycle time of 2 minutes. I know that if I just passed a clear signal, and I know the next signal is 2 miles away and I can see that it also is clear, and I know that by going 30mph it will take me almost 4 minutes to get to the next signal, and that there are no grade crossings, then I know I can take a 2-3 minute nap and that the alerter will wake me in pleanty of time.
A FEW DAYS IN THE LIFE OF AN EXTRA BOARD EMPLOYEEOf course this no way to run a railroad; but consider this: after being so busy you cannot lay off for any reason, and/or misled by the crew callers regarding how much time you will have off before the next call for duty, and based on the callers' info, you take a few hours to take care of much-needed personal business, and no sooner do you lay down and the phone rings--yes, it's the caller sending you out on the road again.
The previous scenario happens all too frequently. On duty 12 hours, then try to get a few hours sleep while laying over in a cheap hotel, then back on duty for another 10-12 hours, then home for maybe 6 hours before the phone rings again, and back out you go. Rinse and repeat. After a few of those you're getting rather deprived of sleep.
But out you go. No choice. So by now, those 2-3 minute 'alerter naps' are quite helpful; the impulse to sleep is too overwhelming to ignore. Oh, and good luck staying awake on the drive home.
They are called microsleeps your body is so tired it goes to sleep but responds to stuff it knows it has to. They think the crash in TX a couple years ago between those 2 BNSF stack trains was the result of a microsleeping crew on one of the trains. You can look wide awake yet your brain is in lala land.
Some of their procedures (not necessarily anything discussed so far) while good ideas, get twisted so as to give the appearance of being proactive about safety while having loop holes big enough to get someone hurt. Or worse. A limited few seem to be more about the chance to hand out discipline. So I don't understand why any employee might have have a bad attitude or not be accepting of inward facing cameras with open arms.
The point and call system does require an attitude of cooperation by employees who believe in the purpose and benefit of the system. Employees who resent management or do not like their job are unlikely to use the point and call system in a way that is effective.
This is because there is no way that a supervisor can confirm whether an employee using point and call is doing so conscientiously or just faking it by going through the motions as an automatic response while sleeping or day dreaming. But with a proper sincere attitude, there is no way that an employee would let point and call become a meaningless repetition with no constructive result.
Maybe this inability to know whether an employee’s attitude toward point and call is constructive is a good reason to use inward facing cameras. They would probably reveal whether an employee is conscientious and sincere in using point and call, just as they would reveal whether an engineer is sleeping on the alerter.
zardozMy thought is that anything that is done over and over and over again will eventually become nearly automatic, with little actual cognizance of what is going on (think 'highway hypnosis'). Mile after mile of saying "clear" at each signal gets old real fast, although it is a good way to be sure that the other person is awake.
Around here, not only is the signal indication called, but the railroad landmark (ie, CP235, Automatic 241 plus the track and direction of travel), so its not just rote.
But my feeling on "point and call" is also that after a while it will just be a show for the camera. Point here, point there, continue on in a daze. Hence my mention of the engineer blowing for crossings in his sleep.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
My thought is that anything that is done over and over and over again will eventually become nearly automatic, with little actual cognizance of what is going on (think 'highway hypnosis'). Mile after mile of saying "clear" at each signal gets old real fast, although it is a good way to be sure that the other person is awake.
My prefered method of operation was that other person in the cab was to call out anything out of the ordinary, such as: an approach signal, yellow or red flags, slow orders, etc.
However, if there is only one person in the cab, then I understand how the pointing and calling system would be useful.
Mea Culpa
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Why do you think airline pilots have their checklists read out loud by one pilot while the tasks are performed by the other pilot? That, incidentally is recorded and preserved on the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder. Do you think they are embarassed or insulted?
Why do you think airline pilots have their checklists read out loud by one pilot while the tasks are performed by the other pilot? That, incidentally is recorded and preserved on the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder.
Do you think they are embarassed or insulted?
No, I am advocating point and call, not criticizing it. The questions I asked about being embarrased or insulted are rhetorical questions directed to others who have cited being embarassed or insulted if forced to use point and call; or to others who believe that point and call often becomes mindless repetition with no effect of focusing the mind on the safety of the task at hand.
Point and call was developed as a natural extension of the task of calling signals.
A 1994 study by the Railway Technical Research Instituteshowed that pointing and calling reduced mistakes by almost 85 percent when doing a simple task.
Why call signals? Won’t people just make it a mindless routine without actually cognizing the signal aspect?
Is the signal calling requirement an insult that says a person is not smart enough to see and understand a signal without verbalizing it?
Murphy SidingI point at the car and say "I'm an excellent driver" and "Kmart sucks". (Sorry man, the made me do it.)
Don't worry, Sears will close it soon.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmann Euclid I have used point and call before I ever heard there was such a system. In times of needing to make very important conscious decisions, the practice of point and call comes naturally because it is constructive and makes sense. It serves a purpose. How did you use point and call?
Euclid I have used point and call before I ever heard there was such a system. In times of needing to make very important conscious decisions, the practice of point and call comes naturally because it is constructive and makes sense. It serves a purpose.
How did you use point and call?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I have used it to make sure I don't forget to do something important before leaving the house. I just point at different things and say, "that's done" for each one I point at. It tends to be things that I do routinely and don't want to overlook them. It seems like a natural thing to do. I'll bet everybody does it in certain cases. I have never thought about it before, but it is precisely like the point and call safety system.
EuclidI have used point and call before I ever heard there was such a system. In times of needing to make very important conscious decisions, the practice of point and call comes naturally because it is constructive and makes sense. It serves a purpose.
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