Interchanging from Short Line to Class 1

[BaltACD]

MP173

Balt:

That made for quite a busy night at Salem.  Do you recall the name of the hunting magazine?  I cannot think of anything published in that area.

What was the purpose of the open station at Clay City?  Looking at my ETT from 1970, I see it was open only first shift.  I cannot think of any interchange at Clay City...was it a train order station?

 

Ed

Clay City was a Agent Operator's position.  Primarily Agency work with the occasional train order.

[MP173]

Balt:

That made for quite a busy night at Salem.  Do you recall the name of the hunting magazine?  I cannot think of anything published in that area.

What was the purpose of the open station at Clay City?  Looking at my ETT from 1970, I see it was open only first shift.  I cannot think of any interchange at Clay City...was it a train order station?

 

Ed

[Convicted One]

Norm48327

Captive roads have no choice.

 

Yeah, that's kinda what i was thinking. "Pay up, or we cut you loose" type ploy.

 

I've seen letters where the railroad was demanding  5 figures, "or else". Usually a political ploy to achieve some other objective, but when you are on the receiving end it provides a real attention getter.

[BaltACD]

MP173

Balt:
We might have discussed this previously, but when were you an operator at Vincennes?  I grew up west of there, just north of Olney.  I made a couple of trips to Vincennes in the mid70s and took a photo or two.

That B&O mainline is pretty much gone now.  I believe grain trains are run out of Olney on the old IC branch line.  As a kid growing up the two big events of the day were the northbound and southbound IC trains between Mattoon and Evansville.  Quite a bit of interchange there at Olney between the two lines.  In fact I had a summer job at the AMF bicycle plant in Olney loading box cars.

 

Ed

In that area, I also worked at Lawrenceville, Clay City, Salem and Shattuc.  The importance of the night time job at Salem was to check the interchange with the M&I to make sure that if they reported cars interchanged prior to Midnight the cars were actually on the interchange track prior to Midnight (the days when per diem was on a daily basis, not hourly as it is today.)  Also putting US Mail on the Metropolitan Special - just routine until some hunting magazine published from some small town South of Salem was sending out their monthly issue - the whole freight house room was filled with 75 pound 'slugs' (small mail bags) that had to be sorted for Eastern destinations for #12 that was due at about 2345 PM and for Western destinations for #11 that was due at 545 AM - Office hours were 1030 PM to 630 AM & sell tickets to any of the public that wanted to make a trip on short notice.

[ChuckCobleigh]

Two different incidents are being conflated (NTSB Railroad Accident Report numbers below).

ATSF H-BALT1-31 runaway on February 1, 1996, cause of which was laid to  "...an undetermined restriction or blockage that prevented the traincrew from achieving and maintaining adequate train braking..." as described in RAR 9605 and

SP 1-MJLBP-11 unit trona train runaway on May 12, 1989, cause of which was laid to "...the failure to determine and communicate the accurate trailing weight of the train..." as described in RAR 9002.

There was some speculation that someone had closed an anglecock in the middle of the ATSF train while it was stopped at the top of the grade, but it remained only a suspicion.  In the SP wreck, the pipeline leaked gasoline which caused the humungous explosion 13 days after the train wreck.

[MP173]

Balt:
We might have discussed this previously, but when were you an operator at Vincennes?  I grew up west of there, just north of Olney.  I made a couple of trips to Vincennes in the mid70s and took a photo or two.

That B&O mainline is pretty much gone now.  I believe grain trains are run out of Olney on the old IC branch line.  As a kid growing up the two big events of the day were the northbound and southbound IC trains between Mattoon and Evansville.  Quite a bit of interchange there at Olney between the two lines.  In fact I had a summer job at the AMF bicycle plant in Olney loading box cars.

 

Ed

[mudchicken]

The runaway Ed B is referring to was at Devore, CA on the SP Lancaster cut-off alongside the ATSF/UP Cajon Pass Line - aka the Duffy Street disaster. (I was there just after it happened; potash dust was still in the air. The Santa Fe dispatchers in San Bernardino heard the whole thing play out and sent me to verify that ATSF was not impacted and where exactly the derailment was. Only time I was ever sent to locate Brand X's derailment)

[PNWRMNM]

Norm,

With all due respect, Ed's description of the runaway is not exactly right but close enough for talking purposes, except that I do not recall anything about kinked air hoses, which would have been tough to prove with most of the train burned up as it was.

His discussion of Initial Terminal Airbrake tests is so incomplete as to require elaboration. This test has been around a long time, probably to the dawn of air brakes and certainly before 1960. The rest of this is from memory of John Langlot and my book "The Rusty Dusty" which is available on our website 'therustydusty.com'.

As of 1960 this test was required at the initial terminal of any train, and at 500 mile intervals for thru trains. The retest interval  was later extended to 1000 miles.

At Wenatchee WA the W-O local ran 20 to 80 cars per day, depending on the season. There was no yard air and no carmen. Procedure was put engine on train and start pumping the air. After the gauge on the caboose was within at least 20 pounds of the feed valve setting of 90 pounds, the rear brakeman would signal the engineer to set the brakes. The brakemen both started walking toward each other inspecting trucks, couplers, safety applieances, the adequacy of brake shoes, and that piston travel was within legal limits. When they met in the middle they signaled the engineer to release the brakes, then both crossed over and walked back on the other side inspecting same mechanical components and that the air brakes had released. While the brakeman walked the set, the engineer made a leakage test. Leakage could not exceed 5#/minute from 70# initial brake pipe pressure at the head end. With a 50-60 car train the whole project typically took 50-60 minutes.

Hillyard had yard air and carmen. Sometimes the carmen could hook up yard air and do entire test without trainmen. Some times the engineer had to pump up the train and make the set while two carmen did the inspection. A hot train often got two pairs of carmen to speed the process along.

Cars picked up enroute required the same treatment for the pick up only.

Mac

[jeffhergert]

I have a 1922 RI Rules and Instructions for the Operation of Air Brakes.  It has instructions before leaving a terminal (at least the initial terminal) to make a brake test by walking the train to see that brakes have set and they have the proper brake piston travel.  Then walk the release and advise the engineer and conductor on how many brakes are defective.  I would guess this would be an industry wide practice, probably required by law since it says, "Proceeding with piston travel of more than 9 inches is a misdemeanor." 

It doesn't mention a train needs 100% working brakes or if the car(s) need to be set out if they can't be repaired on the spot.  I get the impression they would just cut out the air brakes on the car and let it go.

Jeff

[edblysard]

Well Norm,

As Larry pointed out, rules come about because something unwanted happened

In the instance of these air brake rules, back in the late 70s early 80s, SP had a runaway on Cajon, maybe? (can’t really remember what other than in La La land)

Long story short, loaded coal train, with quite a few overloads, stopped at the crest, did not set retainers nor had they checked the brakes before they left the initial terminal.

They headed down grade only to discover that over half the train had no brakes due to a blocked air hose…

The end result is they derailed at the bottom, wiped out half a block of homes.

Few days later, the underground natural gas line that had been ruptured by the derail and the clean up effort decided to blow, adding to the whole mess.

FRA requested and got new air brake rules the biggest of which is the 100% working brakes at initializing terminal.

While back in the day railroads did check brake operation, the test was a simple set and release on the caboose, not what today is called a walk set, which is a very through and time consuming test.

And of course, with the EOT or FRED, there is no one at the rear of the train in a caboose to check the brakes, so the conductor has to go back and check now…more time, but much safer.

 

If I remember correctly, there is a Modern Marvels program that features the SP runaway that helped spark all of this.

[Norm48327]

Ed,

Thanks for the in depth explanation. It helps some of us understand why what seems to be easy and quick takes longer than we think it should.

In my (limited) area of expertise things are not always obvious but are important. Steps along the way must not be skipped. Your post made it obvious that appllies to railroading. Thanks for helping us understand.

[tree68]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Which may be a legitimate and significant reason why Class 1 railroads no longer want to serve single carloads or small numbers of cars - having their main lines tied up that long without generating much revenue, and blocking it from far more profitable traffic.  

MWHA serves the industrial park in Rome as well - via trackage on CSX.  While CSX could probably do interchange at Rome, concentrating all Rome and Utica traffic consolidates the work to one location.  All CSX has to do is let MWHA have some track time between the two a couple times a day, which isn't usually a problem.

[PNWRMNM]

Paul,

I will attempt to answer your original question which was basically how does consist and waybill data get exchanged between short lines and the class I carriers.

Your second question was how quickly the short line could get cars to interchange.

I will answer in the context of a Washington State shortline with two interchanges with the BN. In both cases the jobs pulling and spotting customers worked daylight. One side had a "large enough" yard to completely swith out the inbound I/C and make up the daylight jobs. This side also had an intermediate yard where cars for a branch line and main line stations within 30 miles of the I/C point were set out and picked up.

The other side had a two track yard. One of the two day jobs came to work early enough to switch out the inbound train. Then it went one way and the other job went the other.

The first side delivered a train to the BN's hump yard shortly after midnight six days per week and returned with a new train from BN. The other side delivered to a point on the BN's main line about 30 miles east of the hump yard. BN ran a night local to the turnaround point. We delivered to a small BN yard there and we picked up our cars there. I suspect, but do not know that BN's crew was timed to meet our crew and basically swap trains. BN's crew also had a couple of hours worth of local work there so it did not have to be a "headlight meet."

In both cases the shortline ran on BN track at the interchange points. Our crew than ran into the hump yard had to qualify on BN signal rules. The other did not since it never got on BN main track. Ours was the typical style of agreement. BN maintained the track to whatever standard they saw fit. We ran on it at our risk in terms of derailments. There were many other liability provisions that I will not try to recall at this point.

In short and in general, the physical arrangements are whatever works best for the parties. Owner maintains its track. User runs on owner's track largely at its risk.

As to data, we were computerized so we sent an advance consist to the hump yard for each train and interchanged it off to BN when we hit the interchange. Interchange timing is always an issue for car hire. If we had hazmat, the required info was on the consist. 

Coming out BN gave us a list, with hazmat dope as necessary. They interchanged the cars to us which gave us the waybill info. Our deal was that we were a switch carrier. In practice this meant that our customers sent their bills of lading to BN and BN created the outbound waybills.

We did not have any hazmat shippers, so that was not an issue. Crews have to know what the material is, and how to deal with it. The what it is may be by switch ticket, bill of lading, waybill, or printout on consist. Most class I carriers print the how to deal with it on the consist. Many short lines give their crewmen the DOT book with instructions to give it to Emergency Responders if they want it.  

As to how quickly, we switched the customers when the job got there, and generally did not stick around since there were almost always other customers to switch. Just to head such requests off, we published a special train service tariff item that generated more than enough revenue to pay for a crew, power and fuel for eight hours, plus a profit. We did not have an extra board, so covering a special train usually would fall to operating management. Obviously we were non union. I do not recall that we ever had a special train movement. We were consistent enough the customers were well enough trained, and the traffic was not so time sensative that there was any need for special train service on this property.

Mac

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Which may be a legitimate and significant reason why Class 1 railroads no longer want to serve single carloads or small numbers of cars - having their main lines tied up that long without generating much revenue, and blocking it from far more profitable traffic.  

That said, several times I've seen a NS local arrive, do a 3 to 5 car pick-up and drop-off, and then leave in about 20 to 25 minutes.  The main is level, but part of the spur where the cars are spotted on a fairly steep grade, so tight handbrakes there are a necessity.  But they had a loco on each end of about a 12 - 20 car train, and 3 men to  do it, and clearly they all knew what to do.  Also, that main line - the Lehigh Line - is double track but not terribly busy - it can be several hours between trains.  

- PDN. 

[tree68]

BaltACD

Today just setting off the cars and applying hand brakes would take 20 minutes or more; let alone picking up cars, releasing hand brakes and making a Class 1 air test on the cars that were picked up without being on yard air.

Heck, just pumping the 100 cars left on the main back up will take probably take all of that...

[tree68]

Electroliner 1935

And no thanks to all the terrorists for making all those jobs for the TSA and Homeland security that don't create anything but reinforce paranoia. And create more work.

I would opine that most of the stuff railroads have to do along this line is self-inflicted, if you will.  It's said that the railroad rulebooks are written in blood, and in most cases, that's true.  

TSA doesn't really enter into the picture.  The FRA certainly does.

[BaltACD]

tree68

Thanks to Balt and Ed for covering that for me, in better detail than I could have done so myself.

In this case, cars for interchange are left on yard air, so the four hour rule does not apply.  CSX just stops on the main, cuts off the locomotives, ducks in to pick up the cars, brings them back onto the main, recouples to the rest of the train, pumps up, then does a Class 3 with the EOT.   It goes fairly quickly.  

Back in the day - when I was a train order operator at Vincennes, IN the 'main line local' from St. Louis would go by the office and stop about  3/8 mile East of the office - set off 10 to 12 cars and pick up the same amount of cars and depart within 20 minutes.  Today just setting off the cars and applying hand brakes would take 20 minutes or more; let alone picking up cars, releasing hand brakes and making a Class 1 air test on the cars that were picked up without being on yard air.

[Electroliner 1935]

Many thanks to BALT, Ed, and Larry. Now I know what an AIR SLIP is. Who knew that the air brakes had to be tested so thoroughly and documented with a paper trail. That is a detailed response. And no thanks to all the terrorists for making all those jobs for the TSA and Homeland security that don't create anything but reinforce paranoia. And create more work.

[tree68]

Thanks to Balt and Ed for covering that for me, in better detail than I could have done so myself.

In this case, cars for interchange are left on yard air, so the four hour rule does not apply.  CSX just stops on the main, cuts off the locomotives, ducks in to pick up the cars, brings them back onto the main, recouples to the rest of the train, pumps up, then does a Class 3 with the EOT.   It goes fairly quickly.  

[edblysard]

Electroliner 1935

 

 

tree68

The short line (MWHA) leaves their outbound cars on a designated track (on the west end of the yard), with an "air slip" so CSX doesn't have to inspect them

 

 

Sorry Tree but this one doesn't know what an  "air slip" is. Please educate me. Thanks. 

 

An air slip is basically a certificate prepared by a originating crew to certify that a train has received a Class 1 air brake test.

 

It is left on the controlling unit of a train to inform the relieving crew of the status of the brakes, and is valid for 4 hours from the time the original test was performed.

The slip contains the names of the crew performing the test, when and where they conducted the test, the ID number of the train, and the ID number of the EOT or FRED.

It is used when a train has been been left un attended for a short period of time before it is re-crewed.

After the 4 hour time frame, if there is an air slip, all the train needs is a set and release test and test on the FRED/EOT.

For a cut of cars minus the locomotive…

No air slip, or if the cars/consist is left off air, or if the air brake line is disturbed, the cars will require a new air test.

If the car/consist has not been disturbed, the air slip works in the same manner as it does on a train, valid up to the 4 hour limit, after 4 hours, a set and release and EOT/FRED test.

If the cut of cars has been disturbed in any manner, and the cars are to travel on a Class 1 or Class 2 main line, a new, complete test is required.

 

As for the haz-mat paperwork…there is not a piece of paper work that travels with these cars…it is all done via the paperwork generated by the clerk for the conductor, the car itself is carrying a placard identify it as a hazardous material car and what class the contents are.

The FRA requires the train crew in current possession of the car to have a sequential list that identify the location in the train of any hazardous material cars, their reporting number, and whether they are empty, loaded or residue cars.

This list also has to contain emergency response information, a complete description of the material and its hazards, the name of the shipper and the name of the company/person receiving the car.

In the case of a hazardous material unit train, say an oil can train where all the cars are carrying the same exact commodity, you need to information printed only once for one car.

If on the other hand, there are cars scattered through the train, each car must have its own hazardous material sheet.

Currently, the only cars that require a certificate of actual possession are TIH and PIH, toxic inhalation hazard and poison inhalation hazard cars, think chlorine, ammonia and cyanide and such…with these cars, the train sheet and conductors paperwork contains a actual receipt that must be signed by the conductor delivering the car, and the person receiving the car, be that person another railroader, such as a trainmaster or a yardmaster, often another conductor, or the end receiver in the plant of facility the car is delivered to. T

These receipts show a chain of possession of the car and its contents.

These receipts contain the name of the person delivering the car, the name of the railroad delivering the car, the place and time the car was delivered, who the car was delivered to and the name and signature of the person taking receipt of the car.

Part of this mess is because the Department of Homeland Security has decided that these cars may not be left anywhere un attended, and if they are left in a yard, they must be moved out of that yard within 48 hours of delivery.

In essence, you have to either deliver the car to the receiver/shipper or move it to a new yard or guarded secure siding/storage facility within 48 hours of it hitting your railroad.

So long as it doesn’t sit still over 48 hours, and you can keep an eye or camera on it, you’re ok.

[BaltACD]

Electroliner 1935

tree68

The short line (MWHA) leaves their outbound cars on a designated track (on the west end of the yard), with an "air slip" so CSX doesn't have to inspect them

Sorry Tree but this one doesn't know what an  "air slip" is. Please educate me. Thanks.

A 'Air Slip' is a document that says the cars that the slip documents have had a full Class 1 Terminal air test and a crew picking up the cars with a Air Slip need only make a Class 3 air test.  (Class 1 air test is inspecteing each side of the track for proper brake shoe application and piston travel on the brake application and then inspecting each side of the track for brake shoe release and for proper piston retraction. Exceptions are to be corrected or set out if not corrected.)  A Class 1 air test can be very time consuming.

[Electroliner 1935]

tree68

The short line (MWHA) leaves their outbound cars on a designated track (on the west end of the yard), with an "air slip" so CSX doesn't have to inspect them

Sorry Tree but this one doesn't know what an  "air slip" is. Please educate me. Thanks. 

[mudchicken]

Further the above and to tag onto Balt's comments:

Local supervision on the Class 1 and the Class 3 (read the only supervision, applies to some Class 2's as well) can be very poorly versed on the business end of things in the railroad regulatory environment. There's much more to it than just getting trains over the road and personnel matters.

In a M/W supervisor's world, everything in the in-service track structure gets inspected at least monthly, logged and dealt with per FRA and company standards. It's rough when you have only so many people to inspect plus do repair work and other details. On an interchange track, you are making sure that your obligation is covered (maintenance and inspection) plus you at least take a cursory look over the line where your operating people go. If you see something wrong, you tell the other side what's wrong and take your end out of service or otherwise protect the defect until the issue is resolved. (operating people whine constantly about o/s trackage, spiked switches, etc. that are beyond the roadmaster's limits of authority. That issue has not changed in a hundred years along with industry always thinking at maintenance or derailment costs are the railroad's problem and not theirs. Educating the customer and the other railroad (sometimes) is also part of that supervisors PR responsibility. People skills with internal and external customers come with the supervisor's job.)

The "ENFORCING" issue that BALT is talking about out can be a low key effort that is still direct, specific and non-confrontational/ non-punishing. Putting off or ignoring a problem is not a good thing and will probably come back to bite you...

[mudchicken]

Convicted One

 

mudchicken

Depends on how the M&O contract/license agreement for the track reads in what basically becomes a joint facility

 

 

 

Thanks!!  So is this an area where the class 1 might extract sizeable "switch maintenance" fees from the junior partner?

 

In my experience, no. Just normal wear and tear, especially in the backtracks. If either operating side screws up and derails, the offending party buys it. (unless there is a proven FRA 213 defect, in which case the maintaining party buys it. Funny how trainmasters can see "wide gage" through their microphones on their radios from a hundred miles away...)

[Norm48327]

Convicted One

 

 

mudchicken

Depends on how the M&O contract/license agreement for the track reads in what basically becomes a joint facility

Thanks!!  So is this an area where the class 1 might extract sizeable "switch maintenance" fees from the junior partner?

 

Would it be to the advantage of the class I's to do that? The short lines have to interchange somewhere and excessive costs may  send them to other lines if they are available. Captive roads have no choice.

[BaltACD]

SFbrkmn

Couple of interchange examples that will be kept short and not take up two or three pages and not get too boring detailed. Just because rr A brings a interchange cut to rr B does not mean those cars can be pulled. If there are haz mat cars involved, the list has to be in exact correct order and haz mat shipment papers have to match with any such car involved. If not, the cars don't go for a ride. This happens all time w/ SKO to BNSF interchange @ Winfield. You would think after all tyese yrs, the shortline would get it but they don't. Another example is GCW to BNSF interchange. Many times the cars GCW brings over are not even in the BNSF inventory. If haz mats are involved, again the cars don't go for a ride. The KO @ Wichita one night last yr brought the haz mat cut to the BNSF yd. Many of the cars did not have haz mat papers w/them. BNSF by law could not sign off on chain custody.

BNSF Sales and operating personnel are not doing their job in communicating and ENFORCING the reqirements on the short line.  Short line in most instances, can not continue in profitable operation without the cooperation of their Class 1 partner(s) as they don't have sufficient on line Origin-Destination traffic pairs to pay the bills.  Most of their income is dependent on interline traffic and interline traffic has rules that apply to all the carriers involved.

[Deggesty]

SFbrkmn

Couple of interchange examples that will be kept short and not take up two or three pages and not get too boring detailed. Just because rr A brings a interchange cut to rr B does not mean those cars can be pulled. If there are haz mat cars involved, the list has to be in exact correct order and haz mat shipment papers have to match with any such car involved. If not, the cars don't go for a ride. This happens all time w/ SKO to BNSF interchange @ Winfield. You would think after all tyese yrs, the shortline would get it but they don't. Another example is GCW to BNSF interchange. Many times the cars GCW brings over are not even in the BNSF inventory. If haz mats are involved, again the cars don't go for a ride. The KO @ Wichita one night last yr brought the haz mat cut to the BNSF yd. Many of the cars did not have haz mat papers w/them. BNSF by law could not sign off on chain custody. 

 

If the shipper does not have hazmat papers exactly in order, the first carrier has no buisness at all in picking them up.

[Convicted One]

mudchicken

Depends on how the M&O contract/license agreement for the track reads in what basically becomes a joint facility

 

Thanks!!  So is this an area where the class 1 might extract sizeable "switch maintenance" fees from the junior partner?

[mudchicken]

Convicted One

Who is typically $responsible$ for maintenance of the track (sidings) where such interchange is set out to wait?

 

Depends on how the M&O contract/license agreement for the track reads in what basically becomes a joint facility. STB says you can interchange, M&O agreement covers the rest. Many of those M&O agreements are confidentially filed with STB if it is a major interchange.