Read that EHH has listed all of Michigan as a possible target for disposal.
Would that mean everything other than the greater Detroit area?
All lines? No. Some lines? Yes. I am suprised Grand Rapids to Plymouth is still around. There is too much auto and intermodal traffic between Detroit and Toledo to get rid of that. I would also be suprised to see Grand Rapids to Porter section sold as long as the West Olive power plant is burning coal.
Plymouth to Flint is a wild card. You have grain, coal, and chemical traffic for Midland and Port Huron. I am not so sure on that line getting sold, although it would not suprise me.
An "expensive model collector"
There have been multiple threats of getting rid of Michigan lines since the Chessie days.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Like Balt said, those rumors have been floating around for a long time. Now, with Harrison at the helm, they may well become reality. Back around 2000 there were sixteen trains a day on the Saginaw Sub north of Plymouth. When GM closed a big share of their operations in Flint those trains went by the wayside.
Last report from my contacts there, around four years or so ago there were only four trains a day and the occasional coal or grain drag. I'm not sure what CSX did with the Saginaw Sub north of Flint. Sold or leased to LSRC? I'm not certain. They've also ridden themselves of all trackage in the Thumb. They use trackage rights on CN to get to the ex PH&D trackage in Port Huron and into Sarnia.
The Plymouth Sub from Plymouth to Grand Rapids has also seen a major drop in traffic over those same years. Not sure what it's fate is going to be, but they have been upgrading signals and crossings there.
That leaves Grand Rapids and Detroit, both of which I suspect CSX will want to keep access to. The southern portion of the Saginaw Sub would cover Detroit, and the Grand Rapids sub is self-explanatory. The latter is also used by Amtrak, and I don't know how well that would work if is sold to a short line.
Another lingering question is whether CP would be interested in purchasing/leasing the Grand Rapids and Plymouth Subs to give them access to Detroit.
Norm
I'd place money on a full or almost full pull out of Michigan. Detroit is lucrative due to auto traffic so they might stay there but the Western Michigan lines including Grand Rapids should have been sold a long time ago in my opinion. I would also suspect some of the Western Florida lines could be spun off more. Does CSX really need to go to Tampa?
CSX works with Conrail and auto haulers to get autos to Total Distribution Services (owned by CSX) in New Boston, southwest of Detroit. Combined with other customers in Detroit they would be losing a big chunk of revenue. CN's alienating GM did a lot to help CSX gain the auto traffic.
If they sold off everything in Michigan they would also have to rid themselves of their operations in Ontario.
Norm48327 Like Balt said, those rumors have been floating around for a long time. Now, with Harrison at the helm, they may well become reality. Back around 2000 there were sixteen trains a day on the Saginaw Sub north of Plymouth. When GM closed a big share of their operations in Flint those trains went by the wayside. Last report from my contacts there, around four years or so ago there were only four trains a day and the occasional coal or grain drag. I'm not sure what CSX did with the Saginaw Sub north of Flint. Sold or leased to LSRC? I'm not certain. They've also ridden themselves of all trackage in the Thumb. They use trackage rights on CN to get to the ex PH&D trackage in Port Huron and into Sarnia. The Plymouth Sub from Plymouth to Grand Rapids has also seen a major drop in traffic over those same years. Not sure what it's fate is going to be, but they have been upgrading signals and crossings there. That leaves Grand Rapids and Detroit, both of which I suspect CSX will want to keep access to. The southern portion of the Saginaw Sub would cover Detroit, and the Grand Rapids sub is self-explanatory. The latter is also used by Amtrak, and I don't know how well that would work if is sold to a short line. Another lingering question is whether CP would be interested in purchasing/leasing the Grand Rapids and Plymouth Subs to give them access to Detroit.
I believe averything north of Flint is leased to LSRC. And CSX just added D706 to run Monday-Wednesday-Friday. Also, D705 will run Tuesday-Thrusday-Saturday-Sunday. About the Port Huron situation, there have been rumors since the opppening of the Huron tunnel in 1995 of letting Cn take all the chemical and other traffic. There is not a date, but I think it will happen somday. I think thats all right, too much is hapining and it confuses me, so correct me if im wrong in any of this.
I think the odds are( 15to6 to dump.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Don't know how EHH will divest 'excess' trackage.
Historically, CSX has leased out operation and maintenance of their lines to Short Line and Regional operators. CSX retains ownership of the property, the leassors pay taxes, operational expenses and all maintenance on the line and reap all the revenues they are able to generate.
BaltACDthe leassors pay taxes, operational expenses and all maintenance on the line and reap all the revenues they are able to generate.
I think you mean"leasees"
How about "lessee"?
Convicted One BaltACD I think you mean"leasees"
BaltACD
I was not a English major.
"Lessee" is a legal term, not English as we know it . . .
The coal trains to West Olive are daily or better, I believe, and I've heard nothing to suggest that that particular plant is in danger of closing.I wish the state could acquire GR to Plymouth, and upgrade it for passenger service. CSX would lose any arguments about how it would interfere with its freight service. A route from the Detroit area to Grand Rapids (or Holland) would probably do well, as it would include Lansing. Perhaps it could be routed via Howell and Ann Arbor (there was talk of using the old Ann Arbor for commuter service once or twice). Just a thought. I think they could do well with Holland to Muskegon again, but that's just me. What's the male equivalent of Pollyanna?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Well, there is a thread over on another site (railroadfan.com if you wanna read it) talking about an increase of traffic coming for the Chicago-Detroit PM line, particularly GR to Detroit, thanks to Hunter shutting down the humpyard in Toledo (Stanley Yard), and having Flint traffic, and MAYBE Detroit traffic eventually, go to Grand Rapids instead, to be sorted out there and then moved out on Q trains. Our first confirmed "new" trains are D701 and D702 between GR and Flint, beginning next week and replacing Flint-Toledo trains Q321 and Q322. There may be new Q trains between GR and Ohio someday, but for now the MI traffic is going to be funneled down to Chicago on Q326 and Q327 (GR-Chicago trains). So this line doesn't seem to be going anywhere soon.
Said it before,,, and I'll say it again. The population keeps increasing,,, and thus RR traffic will increase here and there in following decades and centuries. And since its such a pita to get ROW and lay down a new track, why don't they have a stop on pulling up tracks. Some day probably after I have passed on, the cost of petroleum will increase as it gets harder to extract. And if there isn't a way to cheapen hydrogen fuel cells,,, people could be forced to use more rail transportation. Electric cars and battery storage is improving but at what cost? Leave the tracks there. Don't develop the ROW. Preserve the corridor for later generations and save the them from going through the legal hassles.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boyd ...why don't they have a stop on pulling up tracks.
It's not about the future - it's about short-term gain.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CShaveRR The coal trains to West Olive are daily or better, I believe, and I've heard nothing to suggest that that particular plant is in danger of closing.I wish the state could acquire GR to Plymouth, and upgrade it for passenger service. CSX would lose any arguments about how it would interfere with its freight service. A route from the Detroit area to Grand Rapids (or Holland) would probably do well, as it would include Lansing. Perhaps it could be routed via Howell and Ann Arbor (there was talk of using the old Ann Arbor for commuter service once or twice). Just a thought. I think they could do well with Holland to Muskegon again, but that's just me. What's the male equivalent of Pollyanna?
Johnny
Carl,
There is a study in the works on doing exactly that. GR to Det. via Lansing using the CSX line. They have been 'discussing' which way to get from Howell to Detroit. Straight or turn right to Ann Arbor. May be in mothballs now but I read about it in the past couple years.
BaltACDDon't know how EHH will divest 'excess' trackage. Historically, CSX has leased out operation and maintenance of their lines to Short Line and Regional operators. CSX retains ownership of the property, the leassors pay taxes, operational expenses and all maintenance on the line and reap all the revenues they are able to generate.
CSX should try to do what shopping mall leasing companies do, say if the leased property generates X amount of profits using the leased property, CSX is able to share in the profits up to a specific percentage.
CMStPnP BaltACD CSX should try to do what shopping mall leasing companies do, say if the leased property generates X amount of profits using the leased property, CSX is able to share in the profits up to a specific percentage.
Most traffic from leased lines ends up moving on CSX as most of the traffic is interline, thus CSX gets a cut of the traffic revenue without incuring the costs of the Short Line. If the traffic stays on the Short Line, origin to destination they get all the revenue.
CMStPnPCSX should try to do what shopping mall leasing companies do, say if the leased property generates X amount of profits using the leased property, CSX is able to share in the profits up to a specific percentage.
Ever stop to think that's why so many malls have been declared "dead"? The percentages requested can make or break a retailer. Hence, they move out and no other retailer is willing or financially able to accept the lessor's (There's that legal word again, Paul.) terms. Many of the surviving retailers (Sears, Kmart, Macy's, and a few others are no longer looking for property. They are selling theirs in false hopes of survival.) are building stand alone stores in growing neighborhoods. The beat goes on. Times are-a-changin'.
Boyd . . . And since its such a pita to get ROW and lay down a new track, why don't they have a stop on pulling up tracks. . . . Leave the tracks there. Don't develop the ROW. Preserve the corridor for later generations and save the them from going through the legal hassles.
- PDN.
Norm48327Ever stop to think that's why so many malls have been declared "dead"?
It's not so much the anchor stores that cause the problems at malls - in fact, they may be there rent-free. It's the little guy who hopes that the traffic at the mall will help his bottom line that gets gored.
At least one major chain store moved out of our mall into their own building...
tree68 Norm48327 It's not so much the anchor stores that cause the problems at malls - in fact, they may be there rent-free. It's the little guy who hopes that the traffic at the mall will help his bottom line that gets gored. At least one major chain store moved out of our mall into their own building...
Norm48327
I think you know one of the malls I referenced. Montgomery Ward was the first big name to bite the dust. The store that replaced them never gained traction in the marketplace and othere stores came and went. There were lots of shops that moved in and specialized; Women's clothing, etc.) None flourished and all were gone after a time. The heaviest traffic in the mall a few years ago was two security guards walking their beat. That mall is now headed for a meet with the wrecking ball.
Just personal opinion, but why should one go to a mall when major stores and small shops are more convenient? There's also the factor of e-commerce to consider as people seem to be taking that course.
Retail brick stores are dropping quickly. Even grocery stores are closing. Here in NW Indiana and suburban Chicago a 300 store co-op (Central Grocers) is shutting down including about 40 company owned stores (Stracks and Ultra). Are on line grocery shopping affecting these stores that much, are the big companies (Kroger, Walmart, Safeway) digging in, or is America finally going on a diet?
Regarding the CSX Grand Rapids sub...there is typically at least one loaded coal train daily on the line, sometimes 2 per day. A dispatcher of the line indicated there was grain moving on the line also, but I havent seen him in quite some time.
Is the Monon line safe? One would think so, with the new iron ore pellet plant at Reynolds, but who knows.
Regarding Grand Rapids sub, CP is running about 10 trains daily on the NS...who much work (sidings, etc) would be needed to move that to the CSX line in case of a sale?
ed
BOB WITHORN Carl, There is a study in the works on doing exactly that. GR to Det. via Lansing using the CSX line. They have been 'discussing' which way to get from Howell to Detroit. Straight or turn right to Ann Arbor. May be in mothballs now but I read about it in the past couple years.
Boyd Said it before,,, and I'll say it again. The population keeps increasing,,, and thus RR traffic will increase here and there in following decades and centuries. And since its such a pita to get ROW and lay down a new track, why don't they have a stop on pulling up tracks. Some day probably after I have passed on, the cost of petroleum will increase as it gets harder to extract. And if there isn't a way to cheapen hydrogen fuel cells,,, people could be forced to use more rail transportation. Electric cars and battery storage is improving but at what cost? Leave the tracks there. Don't develop the ROW. Preserve the corridor for later generations and save the them from going through the legal hassles.
I don't think any of the discussed lines are in danger of being abandoned. What is being discussed are some of these lines being sold to a short line.
MP173 Retail brick stores are dropping quickly. Even grocery stores are closing. Here in NW Indiana and suburban Chicago a 300 store co-op (Central Grocers) is shutting down including about 40 company owned stores (Stracks and Ultra). Are on line grocery shopping affecting these stores that much, are the big companies (Kroger, Walmart, Safeway) digging in, or is America finally going on a diet? Regarding the CSX Grand Rapids sub...there is typically at least one loaded coal train daily on the line, sometimes 2 per day. A dispatcher of the line indicated there was grain moving on the line also, but I havent seen him in quite some time. Is the Monon line safe? One would think so, with the new iron ore pellet plant at Reynolds, but who knows. Regarding Grand Rapids sub, CP is running about 10 trains daily on the NS...who much work (sidings, etc) would be needed to move that to the CSX line in case of a sale?
This may sound stupid but do you think I would buy a head of lettuce on line that may arrive brown and wilted? I think not. Hands on at the grocery store is a much better bet on getting fresh. Home delivery of potentinally spoiled vegetables is not desirable.
The demise of those companies who can't compete is inevetable and the fault lies strictly in the hands of the CEO's.Unfortunately, Walmart has a plan and most of the others don't.
Wal mart? There was a day when the CEO's strived to make their companies profitable in hope their reward would match their performance.
That no longer applies. they are only looking out for "number one" and the rewards they can reap while taking the corporation into the financial abyss.
Do you really think two coal trains a day is enough to keep the Grand Rapids sub alive? I doubt the economics support that.
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