Shortly before I retired, the rules on CSX required the person 'supervising' such a move could not radio instructions for movement unless they were stationary in a 'position' of safety.
Walk ahead 'sight distance' and tell the engineer to move the train to a position where the 'supervisor' is just about to loose sight of the car. - Repeat the process until the set off location is reached. Somewhat less than 4 MPH for the duration of the move. No walking and talking.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If you have somebody walking to protect defective equipment, you'd best be watching that somebody every chance you have from up in the cab. (It's not only the stumblebums in the ballast at issue)
BaltACD Paul_D_North_Jr Maximum speed for FRA Class 1, Excepted Track, and over broken rails and "pull-aparts" is 10 MPH - but it can be less if specified. For maintenance work under traffic, the speed can be "subject to any limiting conditions specified by such [qualified] person". I've had occasion to limit the speed to "walking speed" - 3 MPH to put a number on it (I allow for my people to be slower than BaltACD's operating folks - they have to walk over a surface that's been disturbed by track work activities) - particularly to watch the front wheels of a locomotive and the first few trailing cars negotiate a section of track that's questionable (for whatever reason). I've also even limited speed to 1 MPH where the move had to a creep over a switchpoint we had doubts about, and for a GP-38 to get over a 35-deg. curve to escape from a wide-gauge derailment that blocked the only other way out. - PDN. Personally - I don't know anybody that can walk at 4 MPH on Main Track ballast. The best I can personally do around the streets and sidewalks of my neighborhood is a GPS measured 3.7 MPH. 4 MPH is what the Rule Book specifies - it is also what is identified as 'safe coupling speed'.
Paul_D_North_Jr Maximum speed for FRA Class 1, Excepted Track, and over broken rails and "pull-aparts" is 10 MPH - but it can be less if specified. For maintenance work under traffic, the speed can be "subject to any limiting conditions specified by such [qualified] person". I've had occasion to limit the speed to "walking speed" - 3 MPH to put a number on it (I allow for my people to be slower than BaltACD's operating folks - they have to walk over a surface that's been disturbed by track work activities) - particularly to watch the front wheels of a locomotive and the first few trailing cars negotiate a section of track that's questionable (for whatever reason). I've also even limited speed to 1 MPH where the move had to a creep over a switchpoint we had doubts about, and for a GP-38 to get over a 35-deg. curve to escape from a wide-gauge derailment that blocked the only other way out. - PDN.
I've had occasion to limit the speed to "walking speed" - 3 MPH to put a number on it (I allow for my people to be slower than BaltACD's operating folks - they have to walk over a surface that's been disturbed by track work activities) - particularly to watch the front wheels of a locomotive and the first few trailing cars negotiate a section of track that's questionable (for whatever reason). I've also even limited speed to 1 MPH where the move had to a creep over a switchpoint we had doubts about, and for a GP-38 to get over a 35-deg. curve to escape from a wide-gauge derailment that blocked the only other way out.
- PDN.
Personally - I don't know anybody that can walk at 4 MPH on Main Track ballast. The best I can personally do around the streets and sidewalks of my neighborhood is a GPS measured 3.7 MPH. 4 MPH is what the Rule Book specifies - it is also what is identified as 'safe coupling speed'.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Paul_D_North_JrMaximum speed for FRA Class 1, Excepted Track, and over broken rails and "pull-aparts" is 10 MPH - but it can be less if specified. For maintenance work under traffic, the speed can be "subject to any limiting conditions specified by such [qualified] person". I've had occasion to limit the speed to "walking speed" - 3 MPH to put a number on it (I allow for my people to be slower than BaltACD's operating folks - they have to walk over a surface that's been disturbed by track work activities) - particularly to watch the front wheels of a locomotive and the first few trailing cars negotiate a section of track that's questionable (for whatever reason). I've also even limited speed to 1 MPH where the move had to a creep over a switchpoint we had doubts about, and for a GP-38 to get over a 35-deg. curve to escape from a wide-gauge derailment that blocked the only other way out. - PDN.
Maximum speed for FRA Class 1, Excepted Track, and over broken rails and "pull-aparts" is 10 MPH - but it can be less if specified. For maintenance work under traffic, the speed can be "subject to any limiting conditions specified by such [qualified] person".
Another less than ten instruction is 8 MPH where there is a rock & roll undesired wheel lift situation possible.
Murphy SidingHow slow do slow orders get? As I left work and was heading home on the highway, I noticed the D&I rock train going so slow that I thought at first it had stopped. A mile up the road I realized I had left my collection of head cold medicine in my office and had to do a u-turn. By the time I got caught back up with the train, it was nearly a mile up the road. My side trip had taken something like 8 minutes. That means the train was cruising along at something like 10 MPH.
Normally 10 MPH is the slowest slow order that will be put out on Main Line track. However, operating situations may require a slower speeds. Moving a known hot box to a set off location is restricted to 4 MPH or walking speed - personnel are to walk along with the offending journal to be in a position to stop the movement if it appears that the journal is about to fail catastrophically.
How slow do slow orders get? As I left work and was heading home on the highway, I noticed the D&I rock train going so slow that I thought at first it had stopped. A mile up the road I realized I had left my collection of head cold medicine in my office and had to do a u-turn. By the time I got caught back up with the train, it was nearly a mile up the road. My side trip had taken something like 8 minutes. That means the train was cruising along at something like 10 MPH.
mudchicken wrote the following post 3 days ago:
"At least they don't count poles anymore"
The B&O used to count curves, as in "3rd curve west of Rockwood" or "1st curve east of Glenwood."
"Question. I'm using GCOR, but I think other books are about the same. You have in your track bulletins a 60mph slow from mp 100.25 to mp 100.5. It specifies that no flags are displayed. You train is authorized for a maximum speed of 50mph. At mp 98.25, 2 miles (GCOR distance) before the restriction, you encounter a yellow board. With only this information, what speed must you be doing at mp 100.25? "
Either 10 mph or prepared to stop depending on what your rules say about an unexpected yellow board. Since your track bulletin says "no flags" someone may have placed the yellow board for some other condition.
Murphy Siding Like telephone or telegraph poles, or are we just talking something like a big wooden fencepost?
Like telephone or telegraph poles, or are we just talking something like a big wooden fencepost?
Yes, the old communication/signal line poles. A main line just doesn't look the same without the poles with multiple cross arms along the tracks. Even derelict poles (to me) still enhances the feeling of a track being a main line. Photographers, of course, hate them because they can get in the way of their shots.
Jeff
Deggesty I remember riding on the UP several years back, and noticing that the poles were forty to the mile, and the tenth, twentieth, and thirtieth were marked as 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4.
I remember riding on the UP several years back, and noticing that the poles were forty to the mile, and the tenth, twentieth, and thirtieth were marked as 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4.
I was taught (by Rock Islanders) the rings on the poles denoted 10, 20, and 30 poles. Not the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 marks, which with 40 poles to a mile, the marks correspond to.
I've noticed on the poles still standing on the original UP side, the pole with the mile post on it has 4 rings.
All is well an good where the poles actually follow the railroad - however when mountain territory begins to intervene - pole lines had a habit of going over the mountain as the railroad goes through the mountain.
Also, the Frisco (from Birmingham to Memphis--my only experience with this road)had 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, and 3/4 mile poles; as I remember, there were not forty poles to the mile.
Johnny
mudchicken Some folks didn't get it. Instead of decimal miles, you had miles plus so many poles. You had to know your territory and did you have 30/35/40/45 poles per mile, largely a function of how many wires your communications/signal pole lines had. (CRIP/ATSF/C&S/MP and DRGW all used the miles plus poles system out here. Got a little strange when the worse-off railroads like CRIP used miles + pole in license agreements and contracts for utilities etc.)
Some folks didn't get it. Instead of decimal miles, you had miles plus so many poles. You had to know your territory and did you have 30/35/40/45 poles per mile, largely a function of how many wires your communications/signal pole lines had. (CRIP/ATSF/C&S/MP and DRGW all used the miles plus poles system out here. Got a little strange when the worse-off railroads like CRIP used miles + pole in license agreements and contracts for utilities etc.)
I knew what you were talking about. I think it's actually better, especially when you're between the 1/4 (pole 10*) 1/2 (pole 20) 3/4 (pole 30) or actual mile post signs. The way MOW place their flags sometimes borders on (and at times actually is) being an unannounced yellow board (flag) in relation to a fixed sign post.
* based on 40 poles to the mile.
Jeff,
Do your slow orders require flags? Ours do not, all we have to do is call it in advance.
If you lose "lock" with GPS or lose contact with a certain number of "birds", autonomous GPS ain't gonna help down to 15 digits, your relative precision is shot. Your datum may be different than everybody else's by 10's of feet.
(Part of why not all surveyors use GPS that much, especially in the urban and more vegitated parts of the country where you can't be out in the open sky)
mudchicken At least they don't count poles anymore.
At least they don't count poles anymore.
As far as mounting the milepost sign goes, I worry about the visual accuity of some of the operating crafts when they have to have the MP sign mounted at the same height as the locomotive cab window. (like along the Cotton Rock)
BaltACD Some temporary Slow Orders get issued without signs being displayed (MofW Foreman used all his signs on other Slows and similar excuses).
Some temporary Slow Orders get issued without signs being displayed (MofW Foreman used all his signs on other Slows and similar excuses).
Sometimes if the slow can be lifted after so much tonnage has passed over it, they won't put up boards.
Question. I'm using GCOR, but I think other books are about the same. You have in your track bulletins a 60mph slow from mp 100.25 to mp 100.5. It specifies that no flags are displayed. You train is authorized for a maximum speed of 50mph. At mp 98.25, 2 miles (GCOR distance) before the restriction, you encounter a yellow board. With only this information, what speed must you be doing at mp 100.25?
A tenth of a mile is 528 feet.A hundredth of a mile is 52.8 feetA thousandth of a mile is 5.28 feet
As I mentioned in a earlier post, the GPS precision for PTC will be to 'at least' 15 decimial places (I have a consumer action camera that can create an exact 'track maps and in the underlying data you can view the GPS cooordinates that are being used). As we know, track gauge is 4 feet 8.5 inches. Track centers vary - with 11 feet being the narrowest possible. Precision is needed in PTC.
I have old public timetables for our line that show the mileage measured southward from Lake Placid. Our mileposts (including the old concrete versions) show mileage north from Herkimer (as opposed to Utica - the current terminus) as that's where the RR originally ran.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Down to the tenth, even if it's MP 143.0.
Even if a slow order involves a specific point (say, a broken rail or pull-apart), the slow order will generally include the tenth on either side.
We do get from time to time a designation such as MP 143.05 on our track bulletins.
All our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track. Which were planted right next to the pole the original one was on... Most of ours are on sign posts too. I've noticed a lot of them are fading to the point you can't read them.
I think of the SFe and BN ETT's--with two listings for miles--one with mile posts, and the other with the distances between stations.
The SP ETT's had two mp listings at some stations--one indicating the actual distance from the previous station, and the other showing the original mp for that station. As I recall the UP now follows the same practice as the BNSF.
I've noticed in older ett's the practice of having the station mile post and miliage from the subdivision starting point (distance from ---). Many now just seem to have a total of the miliage between stations at the bottom of the stations column.
I've noticed for our control points (except for single signal hold points) they now list the mile post for each end of the control point.
Some railroads will have the mile post for each switch at sidings. It seems like we do now, too. I'll have to check some of the other subdivison pages in my current ett. Not too many sidings still exist along the double track anymore where I run.
DeggestyBecause of PTS will mileposts have to be reset in the instances of shortened distances because of realignments (such as the 0.7 mile between Rio Grande MP's 393 & 395)?
Can't speak for other carriers. On CSX exact data from the right of way is fed into the PTC 'physical characteristics' database. If the distance between mileposts are only 0.7 of a mile - or even 1.4 of a mile - that data becomes 'engraved in stone' so far a PTC is concerned. Each railroad point on the data base gets GPS defined by it's GPS coordinates (Lat-Lon figures specified to 15 or more decimal places).
When PTC is used, when a crew gets on the locomotive among the operations the must perform is 'loading' the territory they will be operating into the PTC unit on the locomotive. That downloaded territory then becomes the 'Bible' for that territory, that trip.
Because of PTS will mileposts have to be reset in the instances of shortened distances because of realignments (such as the 0.7 mile between Rio Grande MP's 393 & 395)?
SD70M-2DudeAll our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track.
We've still got some concrete mileposts, and some made of a large wooden plank cut to look like the concrete posts. When the line was reopened last time a number of plywood signs were hung on posts. Any new replacements are metal plates.
SD70M-2Dude mudchicken At least they don't count poles anymore. All our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track. Which were planted right next to the pole the original one was on...
All our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track. Which were planted right next to the pole the original one was on...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
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