A couple days back I saw a train go by at work that seemed to be stuck in 2nd gear. Normal track speed is probably in the 40 mph range. That train was going maybe half that speed. Since then I've seen several trains going by that were also stuck in Granny Gear. Today, I saw another one. Then it hit me! The trains are slow, but I'm slower. They must have a slow order on this section of track. Is there a way for someone who doesn't work for the railroad to find out about slow orders on a particular section of track?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
mvlandswYou may catch a track worker on the radio giving a new slow order to the dispatcher or the dispatcher giving it to the train crews.
Unless you've got an in with someone on the railroad, there are no sure-fire ways to know.
Warning signs might be placed in a location not readily accessible to the general public.
If it's a temporary slow order, you may hear it discussed on the air. As MV notes, longer term slow orders will be published in bulletin orders and like documents, so even if it's dark territory and the DS is giving out track warrants/EC1s/Form D's, slow orders probably won't be mentioned.
If MOW is working, you'll hear oncoming trains contact the foreman for permission to pass through the work area.
If you do a little exploring at nearby crossings, parallel roads, etc, you may be able to spot signs, if they've been posted. They aren't all that conspicuous - maybe a foot square, and usually on a short post besides.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Some temporary Slow Orders get issued without signs being displayed (MofW Foreman used all his signs on other Slows and similar excuses).
In many cases the slow order may only be for 0.1 mile, however, with the size of trains being run - you have to have your 2-3 mile train down to the specified speed by the specified MP's. You have to operate your ENTIRE train over the specified MP's. After the entire train clears the restriction it may then accelerate back to track speed. So a simple tenth of a mile slow order can cause a train to operate at less than track speed for up to 10 miles - slowing - observing - accelerating.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Used up all his signs? Sounds like the G-Car or D-car just hit. (and far from enough troops to hit the low hanging fruit.)
Are milesposts on something like a slow order called out in full numbers, like 'mile post 187'? Or are they called out by the more exact milepost listed at the last crossing like 'milepost 143.6'?
Murphy Siding Are milesposts on something like a slow order called out in full numbers, like 'mile post 187'? Or are they called out by the more exact milepost listed at the last crossing like 'milepost 143.6'?
Down to the tenth, even if it's MP 143.0.
Even if a slow order involves a specific point (say, a broken rail or pull-apart), the slow order will generally include the tenth on either side.
I've seen it done both ways, seems to depend on the MOW foreman
On CSX the milepost are exact to the tenth. All milepost in the US (because of PTC) are unique and consist of 6 characters with tenths denoted after the period. On most carriers subdivisions are indicated by common identifications. CSX uses both alpha and numeric identifiers to their various subdivisions. There is no uniform location of Milepost 0 in any milepost designations.
On CSX Between Baltimore (Camden Station) and Washington the mileposts are of the BAA series - BAA 0 to BAA 36.9 at F Tower where the line enters Amtrak's Washington Union Station. Amtrak has their own milepost designations for the NEC.
On CSX a Slow order must be one tenth of a mile or longer. Both Passenger and Freight speeds are mentioned. "Do not exceed 10/10 MPH between BAA 35.0 and BAA 35.1 on #1 track - Signs Yes (or NO)".
When a temporary Speed Restriction is to be issued, changed or annulled. The responsible MofW employee will contact the Train Dispatcher with the info of what he wants done - The Train Dispatcher will call up the appropriate CADS screen and input the data, repeat the data from the CADS screen to the MofW employee and ask the MofW employee if what was repeated is correct. If the MofW employee concurs that the read back was correct, the Train Dispatcher will hit the enter key on the CADS screen, the slow order will be placed on the subdivision's train messages and a Train Message Number will be created by the computer for it - the Train Dispatcher will communicte that Train Message Number to the MofW employee who will make a record of it on his documents for the slow order.
Once the slow order is issued it is the Train Dispatchers responsibility to notify the trains that will be operating over the territory that do not have the slow order on their train messages. The CADS system assists the Train Dispatcher in determining which trains have the order and which do not.
Not giving a temporary slow order to a train is a fireable offense. Slow Orders are serious business.
At least they don't count poles anymore.
mudchicken At least they don't count poles anymore.
All our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track. Which were planted right next to the pole the original one was on...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70M-2Dude mudchicken At least they don't count poles anymore. All our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track. Which were planted right next to the pole the original one was on...
SD70M-2DudeAll our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track.
We've still got some concrete mileposts, and some made of a large wooden plank cut to look like the concrete posts. When the line was reopened last time a number of plywood signs were hung on posts. Any new replacements are metal plates.
Because of PTS will mileposts have to be reset in the instances of shortened distances because of realignments (such as the 0.7 mile between Rio Grande MP's 393 & 395)?
Johnny
DeggestyBecause of PTS will mileposts have to be reset in the instances of shortened distances because of realignments (such as the 0.7 mile between Rio Grande MP's 393 & 395)?
Can't speak for other carriers. On CSX exact data from the right of way is fed into the PTC 'physical characteristics' database. If the distance between mileposts are only 0.7 of a mile - or even 1.4 of a mile - that data becomes 'engraved in stone' so far a PTC is concerned. Each railroad point on the data base gets GPS defined by it's GPS coordinates (Lat-Lon figures specified to 15 or more decimal places).
When PTC is used, when a crew gets on the locomotive among the operations the must perform is 'loading' the territory they will be operating into the PTC unit on the locomotive. That downloaded territory then becomes the 'Bible' for that territory, that trip.
I think of the SFe and BN ETT's--with two listings for miles--one with mile posts, and the other with the distances between stations.
The SP ETT's had two mp listings at some stations--one indicating the actual distance from the previous station, and the other showing the original mp for that station. As I recall the UP now follows the same practice as the BNSF.
We do get from time to time a designation such as MP 143.05 on our track bulletins.
All our mileposts are now on metal signposts next to the track. Which were planted right next to the pole the original one was on... Most of ours are on sign posts too. I've noticed a lot of them are fading to the point you can't read them.
I've noticed in older ett's the practice of having the station mile post and miliage from the subdivision starting point (distance from ---). Many now just seem to have a total of the miliage between stations at the bottom of the stations column.
I've noticed for our control points (except for single signal hold points) they now list the mile post for each end of the control point.
Some railroads will have the mile post for each switch at sidings. It seems like we do now, too. I'll have to check some of the other subdivison pages in my current ett. Not too many sidings still exist along the double track anymore where I run.
Jeff
I have old public timetables for our line that show the mileage measured southward from Lake Placid. Our mileposts (including the old concrete versions) show mileage north from Herkimer (as opposed to Utica - the current terminus) as that's where the RR originally ran.
A tenth of a mile is 528 feet.A hundredth of a mile is 52.8 feetA thousandth of a mile is 5.28 feet
As I mentioned in a earlier post, the GPS precision for PTC will be to 'at least' 15 decimial places (I have a consumer action camera that can create an exact 'track maps and in the underlying data you can view the GPS cooordinates that are being used). As we know, track gauge is 4 feet 8.5 inches. Track centers vary - with 11 feet being the narrowest possible. Precision is needed in PTC.
BaltACD Some temporary Slow Orders get issued without signs being displayed (MofW Foreman used all his signs on other Slows and similar excuses).
Sometimes if the slow can be lifted after so much tonnage has passed over it, they won't put up boards.
Question. I'm using GCOR, but I think other books are about the same. You have in your track bulletins a 60mph slow from mp 100.25 to mp 100.5. It specifies that no flags are displayed. You train is authorized for a maximum speed of 50mph. At mp 98.25, 2 miles (GCOR distance) before the restriction, you encounter a yellow board. With only this information, what speed must you be doing at mp 100.25?
As far as mounting the milepost sign goes, I worry about the visual accuity of some of the operating crafts when they have to have the MP sign mounted at the same height as the locomotive cab window. (like along the Cotton Rock)
If you lose "lock" with GPS or lose contact with a certain number of "birds", autonomous GPS ain't gonna help down to 15 digits, your relative precision is shot. Your datum may be different than everybody else's by 10's of feet.
(Part of why not all surveyors use GPS that much, especially in the urban and more vegitated parts of the country where you can't be out in the open sky)
Jeff,
Do your slow orders require flags? Ours do not, all we have to do is call it in advance.
mudchicken Some folks didn't get it. Instead of decimal miles, you had miles plus so many poles. You had to know your territory and did you have 30/35/40/45 poles per mile, largely a function of how many wires your communications/signal pole lines had. (CRIP/ATSF/C&S/MP and DRGW all used the miles plus poles system out here. Got a little strange when the worse-off railroads like CRIP used miles + pole in license agreements and contracts for utilities etc.)
Some folks didn't get it. Instead of decimal miles, you had miles plus so many poles. You had to know your territory and did you have 30/35/40/45 poles per mile, largely a function of how many wires your communications/signal pole lines had. (CRIP/ATSF/C&S/MP and DRGW all used the miles plus poles system out here. Got a little strange when the worse-off railroads like CRIP used miles + pole in license agreements and contracts for utilities etc.)
I knew what you were talking about. I think it's actually better, especially when you're between the 1/4 (pole 10*) 1/2 (pole 20) 3/4 (pole 30) or actual mile post signs. The way MOW place their flags sometimes borders on (and at times actually is) being an unannounced yellow board (flag) in relation to a fixed sign post.
* based on 40 poles to the mile.
I remember riding on the UP several years back, and noticing that the poles were forty to the mile, and the tenth, twentieth, and thirtieth were marked as 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4.
Also, the Frisco (from Birmingham to Memphis--my only experience with this road)had 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, and 3/4 mile poles; as I remember, there were not forty poles to the mile.
All is well an good where the poles actually follow the railroad - however when mountain territory begins to intervene - pole lines had a habit of going over the mountain as the railroad goes through the mountain.
Deggesty I remember riding on the UP several years back, and noticing that the poles were forty to the mile, and the tenth, twentieth, and thirtieth were marked as 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4.
I was taught (by Rock Islanders) the rings on the poles denoted 10, 20, and 30 poles. Not the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 marks, which with 40 poles to a mile, the marks correspond to.
I've noticed on the poles still standing on the original UP side, the pole with the mile post on it has 4 rings.
Like telephone or telegraph poles, or are we just talking something like a big wooden fencepost?
Murphy Siding Like telephone or telegraph poles, or are we just talking something like a big wooden fencepost?
Yes, the old communication/signal line poles. A main line just doesn't look the same without the poles with multiple cross arms along the tracks. Even derelict poles (to me) still enhances the feeling of a track being a main line. Photographers, of course, hate them because they can get in the way of their shots.
"Question. I'm using GCOR, but I think other books are about the same. You have in your track bulletins a 60mph slow from mp 100.25 to mp 100.5. It specifies that no flags are displayed. You train is authorized for a maximum speed of 50mph. At mp 98.25, 2 miles (GCOR distance) before the restriction, you encounter a yellow board. With only this information, what speed must you be doing at mp 100.25? "
Either 10 mph or prepared to stop depending on what your rules say about an unexpected yellow board. Since your track bulletin says "no flags" someone may have placed the yellow board for some other condition.
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