At CN Claud Mongeau came after EHH and Luc Jobin recently took over from Mongeau due to the former's health issues. Both of EHH's successors at CN could arguably be called planters, in keeping with the above analogy. There's a time to cut and there's a time to plant.. and as far as business goes there are CEO's who specialize in one or the other. Rarely does one find an individual who is equally adept at both. Some CEO's are agents of rapid change while others are more mainstream caretaker types who grow the business without rocking the boat too much. We need both types.
Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing..
Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing..
Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay.
Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to:
Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it?
The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude".
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70M-2DudeCost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude".
A hole's by nature are and always will act like A holes. If subordinates hitch their star to an A hole they will also act like an A hole to get at-a-boys from the head A hole.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD A hole's by nature are and always will act like A holes. If subordinates hitch their star to an A hole they will also act like an A hole to get at-a-boys from the head A hole.
Describes Creel and Jamie Boychuk to a tee. They even married into the Harrison family.
schlimm tree68 schlimm EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. The question is what kind of management does he know a lot about - efficient railroad management, or maximum return for the investors management... Past experience seems to indicate he's far better a wringing out a return for the investors... As I recall, that is the point of capitalism. Some folks on here have suggested I am a socialist because I am critical of the supremacy of the profit motive. I am saying you can't have your true capitalist cake and eat it (service, treating employees decently, etc.) too.
tree68 schlimm EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. The question is what kind of management does he know a lot about - efficient railroad management, or maximum return for the investors management... Past experience seems to indicate he's far better a wringing out a return for the investors...
schlimm EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us.
The question is what kind of management does he know a lot about - efficient railroad management, or maximum return for the investors management...
Past experience seems to indicate he's far better a wringing out a return for the investors...
As I recall, that is the point of capitalism. Some folks on here have suggested I am a socialist because I am critical of the supremacy of the profit motive. I am saying you can't have your true capitalist cake and eat it (service, treating employees decently, etc.) too.
Literally cannot believe I just read this. My god.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
SD70M-2Dude They even married into the Harrison family.
Harrison's daughters: Libby is Mrs. Earl Julo and Cayce is Mrs. Quentin Judge.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/careers-leadership/cps-hunter-harrison-there-is-a-new-sheriff-in-town/article6122334/?page=all
http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Sydney-Harrison&lc=2230&pid=179848097&mid=6911136
SD70M-2Dude Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing.. Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay. Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to: Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude".
It's a rough business... I'm treated that way every day of the week by various parties and don't worry about it. It is what it is.. so long as nobody gets hurt and the money rolls in, that's what its all about.
SD70M-2DudeEspecially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay.
Amazing how arbitrators discern real facts and rules application as well as application of laws of the land to the cases brought before them.
Similar to how appelate judges review cases and their compliance with the laws under which they were prosecuted as well as the compliance of those laws to the Constitution.
Regal fiat in the USA ended with the defeat of King George III and the British in 1783.
Sure, in cases where the employer is in violation. The law applies to everyone.
wanswheel SD70M-2Dude They even married into the Harrison family. Harrison's daughters: Libby is Mrs. Earl Julo and Cayce is Mrs. Quentin Judge. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/careers-leadership/cps-hunter-harrison-there-is-a-new-sheriff-in-town/article6122334/?page=all http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Sydney-Harrison&lc=2230&pid=179848097&mid=6911136
I'm told Boychuk married Harrison's niece. The story about Creel may have been wrong
Ulrich SD70M-2Dude Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing.. Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay. Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to: Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude". It's a rough business... I'm treated that way every day of the week by various parties and don't worry about it. It is what it is.. so long as nobody gets hurt and the money rolls in, that's what its all about.
So, suck it up and shut up? The reason we have unions is because workers decided that wasn't a good option.
And people do get hurt, physically and emotionally. Offhand I can think of 2 incidents that caused 4 deaths on the job and 1 severe injury that resulted from cutbacks and poor management while EHH was at CN. And being stressed out from having your work life screwed around with causes problems that follow people home.
And that still doesn't answer my question: What is gained through that approach that could not be gained otherwise?
SD70M-2Dude Ulrich SD70M-2Dude Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing.. Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay. Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to: Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude". It's a rough business... I'm treated that way every day of the week by various parties and don't worry about it. It is what it is.. so long as nobody gets hurt and the money rolls in, that's what its all about. So, suck it up and shut up? The reason we have unions is because workers decided that wasn't a good option. And people do get hurt, physically and emotionally. Offhand I can think of 2 incidents that caused 4 deaths on the job and 1 severe injury that resulted from cutbacks and poor management while EHH was at CN. And being stressed out from having your work life screwed around with causes problems that follow people home. And that still doesn't answer my question: What is gained through that approach that could not be gained otherwise?
I get that.. and I'm no fan of bad behavior either. Nor would I advocate sucking it up. Personally it just doesn't touch me.. (unless its my wife or kids doing the misbehaving). Unions obviously don't change rude and insensitive behaviors. so long as the bad "behaver" does his/her job and contributes to the bottom line without hurting anyone then I'll tolerate it. Lots of different perosnalities in the workplace, and you're not going to change anyone so may as well not let it bother you. OH yeah, and to answer your question, there's really nothing gained by bad bahavior like this.. but what are you going to do.. people are the way they are.
One cannot understand where railroaders come from unless they themselves have worked in the discipline and fire without cause, guilty until reluctantly proven innocent, and do as I say or else environment.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
schlimmEHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high?
It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years.
Why? Because in the past decade, CSX has implemented an operating plan based on the same principles as EHH's opeartions at IC, CN and CP.
NS, UP and BNSF have all done the same, as well.
Perhaps the only thing EHH likes to do that the other roads don't is run "general purpose" trains. That is, there intermingle types of traffic on trains. For example, filling out a merchandise train with a block of coal, or moving a block of merchandise traffic on an intermodal train.
That's a tough one because it requires you have the time, space and capacity on your network to accomodate the extra work in the train schedule. Exactly how much of this he'll be able to implement on CSX will be the interesting thing to watch.
Given that his style is much more authoritative and detail oriented, it'll be interesting to see if that will help close the gap between the operating plan and actual performance.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndIt's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. Why? Because in the past decade, CSX has implemented an operating plan based on the same principles as EHH's opeartions at IC, CN and CP. NS, UP and BNSF have all done the same, as well.
And there may well lie the rub, if you will.
EHH may be expected to generate the same type of returns he got at IC, CN, and CP, but will have to do so after many of the strategies he used at those roads have already been applied at CSX.
It'll be an uphill battle, and may lead to even more drastic measures in order to achieve the goal.
Given that the other railroads are still recovering from what he did to them (per previous posts), things may not bode well for CSX.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Guess we'll see if he has any other tricks up his sleeve, or if he is a one-trick pony that won't be able to deliver. Stay tuned?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Guess we'll see if he has any other tricks up his sleeve, or if he is a one-trick pony that won't be able to deliver. Stay tuned?
It's a very good one trick that pony learned. Other's horses have learned the trick, though. It is no longer a new or unique trick.
As you know, part of the problem with the RR today is management turnover. Can EHH teach the young'uns better and faster? Or, will he merely alienate them? We shall see....
oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years.
schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high?
2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. 2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent
Apples and oranges. Length of haul, traffic mix, highway competition, Labor rate with fringe. All different.
What was CSX's OR in the 1990's when EHH started doing his thing? Around 90. Now below 70. 20 point drop in 20 years. Just lucky?
oltmannd schlimm oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. 2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent Apples and oranges. Length of haul, traffic mix, highway competition, Labor rate with fringe. All different. What was CSX's OR in the 1990's when EHH started doing his thing? Around 90. Now below 70. 20 point drop in 20 years. Just lucky?
In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky?
schlimm oltmannd schlimm oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. 2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent Apples and oranges. Length of haul, traffic mix, highway competition, Labor rate with fringe. All different. What was CSX's OR in the 1990's when EHH started doing his thing? Around 90. Now below 70. 20 point drop in 20 years. Just lucky? In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky?
Canadian exchange rate.
Financial accounting regulations require conversion of revenues and expenses to a uniform dollar value. In the case of CP and CN when you read their financial reports they are in Canadian dollars.
Canadian railroads have different requirements with regards to taxes and benefits which cause the accounting for operationg ratios to bedifferent on different sides of the border. The Canadian rules of the game oare diffeernt than the US rules of the game. You can compare trends of OR's or OR's between roads on the same side of the border, but comparing a US road's OR to a Canadian road's OR, the Canadian road with have a lower for an equivalent operation.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BaltACDIn 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky? Canadian exchange rate.
Irrelevant.
kgbw49 Financial accounting regulations require conversion of revenues and expenses to a uniform dollar value. In the case of CP and CN when you read their financial reports they are in Canadian dollars.
Of course! But, "twelve of the 60 blue-chip companies in the S&P/TSX 60 index currently use U.S. GAAP, including BlackBerry Ltd., Magna International Inc., Canadian National Railway Co. and Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd." So it is apples and apples.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-accounting-standards-best-for-canada-executive-says/article23960882/
Ulrich I get that.. and I'm no fan of bad behavior either. Nor would I advocate sucking it up. Personally it just doesn't touch me.. (unless its my wife or kids doing the misbehaving). Unions obviously don't change rude and insensitive behaviors. so long as the bad "behaver" does his/her job and contributes to the bottom line without hurting anyone then I'll tolerate it. Lots of different perosnalities in the workplace, and you're not going to change anyone so may as well not let it bother you. OH yeah, and to answer your question, there's really nothing gained by bad bahavior like this.. but what are you going to do.. people are the way they are.
True enough, and I believe that it is not just that you gain nothing from this kind of attitude but also that it creates unnecessary negative changes in how people work. An example from CN (and presumably CP) is that people do whatever they can to avoid spending time at work (filing notice for rest on the road, taking the maximum hours off that they can when they get home, taking as many personal days off as they can, all of which are legal and provided for in our collective agreement), with the end result being that more employees are needed to run the same number of trains, or that trains sit waiting for crews to come available.
Not a very efficient use of assets (workers), but cracking the whip only goes so far...
schlimm BaltACD In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky? Canadian exchange rate. Irrelevant.
BaltACD In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky? Canadian exchange rate.
There is no denying that CP's operating ratio dropped dramatically under EHH, but that was very easy to do, given how the previous management ran the railroad. Everyone in the lower ranks could see the glaring inefficiencies and stupid decisions, and initially welcomed the chance to run the railway properly, hoping that maybe EHH had mellowed from his vindictive attitude at CN.
I suspect any dramatic lowering of the OR at CSX will be good for NS, as they pick up disgruntled shippers. And that will be to the long term detriment of CSX.
The Canadian exchange rate is of course irrelevant.
Yes. It is apples and apples. They use GAAP and financial statements take all their US dollar revenues and expenses and convert them to Canadian dollars to combine with their Canadian revenues and expenses.
See Note 1 to the CN financial statements:
http://cn.ca/-/media/Files/Investors/Investor-Financial-Quarterly/Investor-Financial-Quarterly-2016/Year-End-Results/2016-Full-Year-Statements-en.pdf?la=en
See Note 1 to the CP financial statements:
http://s21.q4cdn.com/736796105/files/doc_financials/Annual-Report/2016/March-9/CP-Annual-Report-2016.pdf
There can be a gain or loss on the exchange rate. It is usually a gain as the Canadian dollar is usually lower than the US dollar, so converting one US dollar to Canadian currency yields $1+ Canadian dollars. But that difference of both revenues and expenses for the "+" part is reported in Other Income.
That means their Operating Ratio calculation is apples to apples in terms of how much Operating Revenue is used up by Operating Expenses.
SD70M-2Dude Ulrich I get that.. and I'm no fan of bad behavior either. Nor would I advocate sucking it up. Personally it just doesn't touch me.. (unless its my wife or kids doing the misbehaving). Unions obviously don't change rude and insensitive behaviors. so long as the bad "behaver" does his/her job and contributes to the bottom line without hurting anyone then I'll tolerate it. Lots of different perosnalities in the workplace, and you're not going to change anyone so may as well not let it bother you. OH yeah, and to answer your question, there's really nothing gained by bad bahavior like this.. but what are you going to do.. people are the way they are. True enough, and I believe that it is not just that you gain nothing from this kind of attitude but also that it creates unnecessary negative changes in how people work. An example from CN (and presumably CP) is that people do whatever they can to avoid spending time at work (filing notice for rest on the road, taking the maximum hours off that they can when they get home, taking as many personal days off as they can, all of which are legal and provided for in our collective agreement), with the end result being that more employees are needed to run the same number of trains, or that trains sit waiting for crews to come available. Not a very efficient use of assets (workers), but cracking the whip only goes so far...
There's a happy balance in there somewhere. Overly nice and respectful is almost as bad as chef Gordon Ramsey rude. A good manager walks that fine line between the two.
Creel obviously recognizes that the culture within CP has been tainted by Harrison's obsession to cut costs. It will take years to improve morale within the company. It will cost the company millions to settle all the lawsuits it faces over wrongful dismissal.
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