samfp1943seems that the construction into that region could be laid to an 'ego trip' by an individual ... "In 1900, William Rockefeller, brother of John D. Rockefeller, obtained control of the Anaconda Copper Company, with its copper mine and smelter near Butte, Montana. Rockefeller wanted to build a third railroad from the Midwest to Puget Sound to gain access to the growing Asia trade and to the riches in between."
Well, there was that letter from James J. Hill in 1898 saying ""If our plan works out as well as it promises and electric locomotives can be used on railways, it will give an enormous impetus to the use of copper for transmission." And there was the original design of catenary with the double trolley on alternating hangars to 'reduce sparking under heavy load and at high speed' ... and perhaps not coincidentally increase the amount of copper to be used in the overhead system, a detail of interest considering how pole lines and similar "economies" were used elsewhere to keep costs down.
Leads one to speculate on exactly why the electrification debt was never cancelled in bankruptcy. And who benefited from the action. I guess, reading between the lines, there were more lucrative markets for all that copper by the time any 'filling in' the intermediate gap in electrification was seriously under discussion ...
ATSFGuyOutside of the PCE, where did the MilW excel?
Milwaukee was really good with Public Relations and Marketing. Their Marketing department was hands down better than C&NW or Soo Line. Yes they should have abandoned a lot of those branchlines sooner. W&S has a lot of former Milwaukee employees and they seemed to have picked up or learned the Milwaukee's marketing ability to bring in new business.
Milwaukee Road had a monopoly almost on Milwaukee traffic. Prior to deindustrialization of the Midwest they had pretty massive rail business in Milwaukee. A lot of it was loose car clients though vs mass use.
Chicago-Kansas City.
Chicago - Twin Cities
Chicago - SW Indiana
Twin Cities to Iowa River Line.
And some of the longer branches brought in good business and still do today.
One of the Milwaukee's big marketing failures was not persuing the UP harder for the frieght business from Omaha to Chicago. Had it landed that instead of C&NW, I think it would have survived it's last bankruptcy as a smaller system and UP would have a much better route Chicago to Twin Cities than the crappy ex-C&NW that it runs now.
CMStPnP ATSFGuy Outside of the PCE, where did the MilW excel? Milwaukee Road had a monopoly almost on Milwaukee traffic. Prior to deindustrialization of the Midwest they had pretty massive rail business in Milwaukee. A lot of it was loose car clients though vs mass use. Chicago-Kansas City. Chicago - Twin Cities Chicago - SW Indiana Twin Cities to Iowa River Line. And some of the longer branches brought in good business and still do today. One of the Milwaukee's big marketing failures was not persuing the UP harder for the frieght business from Omaha to Chicago. Had it landed that instead of C&NW, I think it would have survived it's last bankruptcy as a smaller system and UP would have a much better route Chicago to Twin Cities than the crappy ex-C&NW that it runs now.
ATSFGuy Outside of the PCE, where did the MilW excel?
Mark Meyer
QUESTION:
Does anybody have or know the running time of the Olympian Hiawatha from Seattle to Spokane vs. the Northern Pacific's fastest train between the same two end point via Stampede Pass?
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M CainQUESTION: Does anybody have or know the running time of the Olympian Hiawatha from Seattle to Spokane vs. the Northern Pacific's fastest train between the same two end point via Stampede Pass? Regards, Fred M. Cain
From 'Streamliner Memories' and Amtraks current timetable
Olympian Hiawatha (1956) - 7'30 EB 8'25 WB
North Coast Limited (1959) - 9'08 EB 9'03 WB
Empire Builder (1956) - 7'15 EB 7'55 WB
Amtrak (today) - 8'00 EB 8'10 WB
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD From 'Streamliner Memories' and Amtraks current timetable Olympian Hiawatha (1956) - 7'30 EB 8'25 WB
Huh. Interesting. I wonder why the westbound Hiawatha took nearly an hour longer to make the run than the eastbound?
Fred M Cain BaltACD From 'Streamliner Memories' and Amtraks current timetable Olympian Hiawatha (1956) - 7'30 EB 8'25 WB Huh. Interesting. I wonder why the westbound Hiawatha took nearly an hour longer to make the run than the eastbound? Regards, Fred M. Cain
Perhaps the ruling grades?
Well, I wondered about the ruling grades, too. I read somewhere years ago that the grade on one side of the Saddle Mountains was much steeper than on the other side (can't remember which now) but I'm not sure that would slow a passenger train down that much. Surely it would a freight train but a passenger train?
Maybe they'd have to go slower downgrade for safety purposes?
charlie hebdo Fred M Cain I wonder why the westbound Hiawatha took nearly an hour longer to make the run than the eastbound? Perhaps the ruling grades?
Fred M Cain I wonder why the westbound Hiawatha took nearly an hour longer to make the run than the eastbound?
I wonder why the westbound Hiawatha took nearly an hour longer to make the run than the eastbound?
Charlie,
I thought about the time zones to but I don't think so. Maps clearly indicate that the entire state of Washington (and part of Idaho) all lie within the Pacific time zone.
FMC
The most likely reason is schedule padding westward to ncrease probablility of on time arrival at Seattle. There is no time zone change across Washington.
Fred M Cain Charlie, I thought about the time zones to but I don't think so. Maps clearly indicate that the entire state of Washington (and part of Idaho) all lie within the Pacific time zone. FMC
I did not hypothesize time zones as being a reason. That was Overmod.
charlie hebdo I did not hypothesize time zones as being a reason. That was Overmod.
Oooops! Sorry about that Charlie !
Fred M CainCharlie, I thought about the time zones to but I don't think so. Maps clearly indicate that the entire state of Washington (and part of Idaho) all lie within the Pacific time zone.
That's not him; that was me.
PNWRMNM The most likely reason is schedule padding westward to ncrease probablility of on time arrival at Seattle. There is no time zone change across Washington.
This is, in my own personal, honest and humble opinion the most likely explanation. Amtrak still does this today on some of their long-distance trains.
charlie hebdo Fred M Cain BaltACD From 'Streamliner Memories' and Amtraks current timetable Olympian Hiawatha (1956) - 7'30 EB 8'25 WB Huh. Interesting. I wonder why the westbound Hiawatha took nearly an hour longer to make the run than the eastbound? Regards, Fred M. Cain Perhaps the ruling grades?
Schedule padding for OT arrivals?
BaltACD Schedule padding for OT arrivals?
Yes, I think so. I saw where today Amtrak train #4 the eastbound Southwest Chief is allowed 35 minutes from LA to Fullerton. But westbound #3 is allowed nearly two hours (1 hr, 54').
So, it would be interesting to know what the running times were for the Olympian Hiawatha EB vs WB from Seattle to the first stop on the line to the east.
BALTACD posted:
not so sure it was padding, especially back then.
Fred M Cain So, it would be interesting to know what the running times were for the Olympian Hiawatha EB vs WB from Seattle to the first stop on the line to the east. Regards, Fred M. Cain
From the May 1961 Official Guide (the month the Olympian Hiawatha was discontinued):
Westward train 15 was allowed 49 minutes from departure at Renton to arrival at Seattle (12 miles). Eastward train 16 was scheduled for 23 minutes Seattle to Renton.
The running times don't tell the whole story. Sure, NP trains took longer to run from Spokane to Seattle and vice versa compared to GN and MILW passenger trains, which was logical considering their longer route. But unlike the GN and MILW, the NP trains experienced signficant dwell in Pasco picking up or setting out cars to/from Portland. GN did this at Spokane, and the MILW trains never had any through cars to Portland and the important connection to/from the SP which was one of things that made MILW passenger service inferior.
While westward trains inbound at Seattle had some padding, the actual necessity of it varied by railroad. GN and NP turned the equipment off the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited the same day. This was especially tricky for the North Coast Limited which at times had turn times of 5 hours or less. When inbound trains were very late GN especially and NP to a great extent had the option of substituting equipment from other trains. GN's Western Star was a bona fide streamliner as were GN trains to Vancouver, BC; NP had the Mainstreeter and a streamliner connection to the SP at Portland. In other words, the GN and NP had the ability to mix and match equipment (even among the two railroads on occasion). The MILW had no such option as other than transcontinental trains, they ran no other local passenger service. And before 1955, the heavyweight equipment used on the Columbian was hardly substitutable for that used by the Olympian Hiawatha; as a result, the MILW kept a spare set of equipment in Tacoma (where the Olympian Hiawatha actually terminated) overnight instead of risking delay from a late inbound train with no other donor equipment available.
And speaking of Spokane-to-Seattle passenger service, for the first 62 miles out of Spokane, MILW trains used Union Pacific as far as Marengo (and used UP for 23 miles east of Spokane as far as Manito). MILW maps showed this route via Spokane as an alternate route, but the reality was that west of Spokane it was basically a passenger-only operation (on UP), and after the Olympian Hiawatha went away in 1961, MILW freight access to Spokane was almost exclusively from Plummer, Idaho, relegating Spokane to branch-line status.
Fred M Cain Well, I wondered about the ruling grades, too. I read somewhere years ago that the grade on one side of the Saddle Mountains was much steeper than on the other side
Well, I wondered about the ruling grades, too. I read somewhere years ago that the grade on one side of the Saddle Mountains was much steeper than on the other side
From: http://www.gngoat.org/GN-MILW-NP.pdf
Did the WB Olympian Hiawatha head into the station in Seattle or back in?
Johnny
Deggesty Did the WB Olympian Hiawatha head into the station in Seattle or back in?
Thank you.
Back in the 1800's early 1900's I think most railroads built new lines to adhere to a schedule and budget to get them in place vs to get them to stand the test of time in every respect of perfection. Later they would come along and correct curvature and grades as budgets or operations would allow.
This was also the Milwaukee Roads practice if you noticed the much extolled mainline between Chicago and the Twin Cities was in fact the third attempt to get it right across Wisconsin. 1st was the Milwaukee and Mississippi line between Milwaukee - Waukesha and Prarire Du Chien, 2nd was the Northern Milwaukee Mainline that traversed North Milwaukee before heading West via various small cites all the way to Portage. 3rd finally was the line west of the Town of Brookfield to Portage. Originally the line to Brookfield then West to Waukesha was only single tracked. They laid the second line or double track much later between Milwaukee and Brookfield. Interestingly the Milwaukee Road kept all three lines one current mainline and two former mainlines in tact all the way to the sale to the Soo Line. WSOR ended up with almost the entire former Milwaukee and Mississippi and operates it today. I beleve WSOR also has a good chunk of the Northern mainline in operation though it no longer goes to Portage.
Also, should mention that the Milwaukee built some of it's granger railroad system by merging with other railroad lines the railroad did not build it all. Most especially in Wisconsin.......it's last Twin Cities mainline was the result of a merger between the Milwaukee and LaCrosse Railroad and the former Milwaukee and Mississippui which after a bankruptcy wa renamed the Milwaukee and Prarie Du Chien railway. Milwaukee filled in the gaps and renamed itself the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul and the Prarie Du Chien line eventually became secondary. The Prarie Du Chien line did carry substantial traffic back then and was originally built in that direction to support the rapidly expanding Zinc (formerly Lead) Mining industry in SW Wisconsin......the whole point of the Mineral Point, WI branch. At one point Mineral Point, WI with it's Zinc and Lead Mining and smelters was almost as large as Milwaukee in land area.........it has shrunk substantially since then and today you almost cannot tell it was ever more than a small farming town. My point here is you have to look at the lines built, acquired and merged in the Midwest in their respective historical context vs todays traffic levels.
Last but not least, the name of the railroad and it's predominance in Milwaukee was because it was both initially HQ'd, Financed, and run out of Milwaukee vs Chicago. It extended to Chicago well after the predecessor to the C&NW did and established a Chicago HQ..........15-20 years after founding.
BaltACD One thing foamers always overlook in their discussions of what railroad did or didn't do is the sheer volume of traffic that is required to make a line profitable and self sustaining. It is always about the money. When outgo exceeds income trouble ensues.
One thing foamers always overlook in their discussions of what railroad did or didn't do is the sheer volume of traffic that is required to make a line profitable and self sustaining. It is always about the money. When outgo exceeds income trouble ensues.
I think that's true of any hobby that involves the observation of an activity, that's business doesn't involve entertainment or a spectator sport.
CMStPnP Last but not least, the name of the railroad and it's predominance in Milwaukee was because it was both initially HQ'd, Financed, and run out of Milwaukee vs Chicago. It extended to Chicago well after the predecessor to the C&NW did and established a Chicago HQ..........15-20 years after founding.
Also, to many people it was known as The St. Paul Road.
You will see that in any number of small towns in Wisconsin where the street paralleling the tracks is often called St. Paul Avenue (or Street).
I know, let's kill a bunch of birds with one stone. Let's relay the track and run Amtrak and "cruise" trains on it and maybe one freight for the foamers to take pictures of. Then everyone will be happy...(sarcasm).
samfp1943In 1901, a survey estimated the Milwaukee Road’s Pacific Extension would cost $45 million, later increased to $60 million.
This was the predominant issue right here as well as lack of traffic by completion in 1909, total PCE cost was above $257 million (that is a LOT of money in 1909). Now that would not have been so bad had any bankruptcy judge after that allowed the railroad to give the bond holders a major haircut. However it never happened and that debt kept being rolled over........you could watch it slowly increase over time due to compounding and inability of the Milwaukee to pay it down. The interest payments on the growing debt was a cause of cash flow issues in successive Milwaukee bankruptcies. Which led to the final bankruptcy in 1977 and the comments by the Trustee in the 1980s, he refused to give the railroad another chance based on the total bankruptcies through time. He wanted this to be the last bankruptcy and so he forced the sale option over the railroad reorganization plan.........thats how the Soo got it. The trustee was trying to balance competition among remaining lines after the Milwaukee was sold.
On the unwillingness to forgive the PCE debt or give the bond holders a haircut. Sounds unfair now but in the context of the time the Milwaukee Road was involved in via arms length or name association with several stock and bondholder ripoffs. One of the most notable that you can lookup in Wisconsin was the Milwaukee and LaCrosse fiasco. The M&L merged into the Milwaukee but not before selling what would quickly become worthless bonds to Wisconsin Farmers and causing mass personal bankruptcies of individuals that invested large chunks of their personal savings in them. You can read about in old issues of the Milwaukee Journal. The newspaper and state politicians were heavily critical of M&L and the later Milwaukee Road for no attempts to make good on the worthless bonds. Not sure if the Judge had access to previous transgressions or if they were in the railroads record but if they were one can understand why they wanted to never let the railroad off the hook for debt incurred given railroad "robber barron" reputations historically..........just my two cents.
In my view though as a business in the railroad industry I would say their management was average to better vs poorly managed at least it was in the Milwaukee area. Yes I think they made mistakes but they out competed C&NW and Soo Line in Wisconsin hands down. They were fast to spot a business opportunity and move on it and usually left C&NW choking on their dust. Soo Line seemed more focused on small to medium sized businesses along it's line or it could be the rural nature of the Soo Line mainline but the Soo had customer sidings it seemed everywhere that would only produce a few cars a week or month. Milwaukee persued the more heavy duty operations like the Beer Line in Milwaukee (Miller, Pabst and Schlitz were all Milwaukee customers.......yes some shipped C&NW but the Milwaukee was the primary carrier)
Major Milwaukee firms like JI CASE farm tractors, Allis Chalmers, AO Smith, P&H, FALK Corp, Red Star Yeast, etc. etc. were all Milwaukee customers and before the large shift away from industrial you would see large cuts of trains on Milwaukee with auto & truck frames bound for all parts of the country. Large cuts of Boxcars carrying beer kegs, Malt, Barley and Grain hoppers, flat cars with the yellow and black P&H grading equipment on it, Red and White CASE tractors, etc, etc. Even in rural communities like Oconomowoc you could see the marketing at work. Oconomowoc used to be a fairly major shipper which has faded into light under CP but still enough freight out of Oconomowoc today they merit almost a regular daily stop on the Milwaukee to Watertown patrol job. Brownberry Ovens (Bakery products) has a spur and I would guess is the major shipper there.
VerMontanan The UP freight business, at least the majority of it, was never going to/from the Milwaukee Road at Council Bluffs. The Milwaukee just couldn’t see it. I think that Milwaukee management had delusions of adequacy with regard to their routes, and the Chicago-Omaha one was no exception. Compared to the C&NW route, it had little online business (no wonder when the track deteriorated, they were able to give up from Green Island to Tama in favor of trackage rights on C&NW at Clinton starting in December of 1977), but the biggest reason the C&NW would always be the preferred route was its greater capacity. The C&NW was double track all way across Iowa (until a section was single-tracked west of Denison), whereas the Milwaukee had to scramble and invest millions to install CTC on their line across Iowa when they started foolishly running the Cities streamliners. But the main thing that the C&NW route had going for it was its alternate route between Missouri Valley, IA and Fremont, NE, which allowed run through C&NW-UP trains to completely avoid the Omaha-Council Bluffs terminal. The Milwaukee-UP interchange would always have to be in Council Bluffs. Today, UP largely runs a directional railroad between Missouri Valley and Fremont, with eastbounds running via Omaha, and westbounds via Blair, fluidity only possible with the ex-C&NW route.
The CNW was double track between Missouri Valley, Iowa east after the early 1940s. Council Bluffs - Mo Valley was pulled up for scrap for the war effort. In the mid 60s is when the second track between Mo Valley and Denison was pulled out leaving two long sidings.
The Milwaukee had been double tracked for about a 20 year period east of Manila Iowa after the 1912 era rebuilding of the Iowa line. Starting in the 30s, sections were single tracked because the UP traffic never materialized. The 1950s modernization was probably the second attempt to get more UP traffic.
The MILW did have one run through with the UP. After the last bankruptcy the UP was willing to accept that run through via Kansas City instead of Council Bluffs. This was one of many reasons leading to the abandonment of the line to Council Bluffs.
Jeff
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