Years ago there were some people here who had a veritable, almost religious, belief that the Milwaukee's Pacific Coast Extension was THE superior rail route to the Pacific Northwest. They fervently argued that the rail line was done in by skullduggery and dirty deads ranging from government corruption to most foul play by the BN. I came to regard them as basically a cult.
In contrast, I think this is a good and reasoned analysis.
http://www.gngoat.org/MILW2014.pdf
The Milwaukee's PCE flat out sucked and we're well rid of it.
That author of that piece posts here as VerMontanan, as recently as yesterday, so hopefully he will chime in.
My personal opinion is that the Milwaukee built it as they had no friends to the Pacific, so tried to stop themselves from being boxed in. They made a few mistakes, though. They could have used Roger's Pass near Great Falls, probably at a 1% ruling grade, and instead of dealing with the huge mess of a track profile west of Missoula run it down the Clark Fork parallel to the NP and around the south shore of Lake Pend Oreille at the same ruling grade, and entered Spokane on their own trackage rather than inconvenient trackage rights. There is also enough space on the east side of the Cascades to have reduced the climb from the Columbia west of Beverly from 2.2% to probably 1% with a bunch more curvature. Cost wise, the Milwaukee couldn't bear it though.
Ultimately grades and the lack of feeders killed it. Like the SP&S, there are usually good reasons why a route dies that don't involve conspiracies.
I miss those old PCE discussions. They were always good for a laugh.
An "expensive model collector"
One thing foamers always overlook in their discussions of what railroad did or didn't do is the sheer volume of traffic that is required to make a line profitable and self sustaining. It is always about the money. When outgo exceeds income trouble ensues.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
n012944 I miss those old PCE discussions. They were always good for a laugh.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
greyhounds Years ago there were some people here who had a veritable, almost religious, belief that the Milwaukee's Pacific Coast Extension was THE superior rail route to the Pacific Northwest. They fervently argued that the rail line was done in by skullduggery and dirty deads ranging from government corruption to most foul play by the BN. I came to regard them as basically a cult. In contrast, I think this is a good and reasoned analysis. http://www.gngoat.org/MILW2014.pdf The Milwaukee's PCE flat out sucked and we're well rid of it.
Murphy Siding greyhounds Years ago there were some people here who had a veritable, almost religious, belief that the Milwaukee's Pacific Coast Extension was THE superior rail route to the Pacific Northwest. They fervently argued that the rail line was done in by skullduggery and dirty deads ranging from government corruption to most foul play by the BN. I came to regard them as basically a cult. In contrast, I think this is a good and reasoned analysis. http://www.gngoat.org/MILW2014.pdf The Milwaukee's PCE flat out sucked and we're well rid of it. Them? All two of them. In reading your post, I first thought of VerMontanan who was always the one spoiling MichaelSol's and Futurmodal's revisionist railroad history fantasies with logic and reason. Then I started reading the article and had Deja-Vu. I view the Milwaukee Road PCE much as I do the Ford Edsel. It's easy to point out the problems now, but it probably made perfect sense to the people who initiated it back then.
Them? All two of them. In reading your post, I first thought of VerMontanan who was always the one spoiling MichaelSol's and Futurmodal's revisionist railroad history fantasies with logic and reason. Then I started reading the article and had Deja-Vu. I view the Milwaukee Road PCE much as I do the Ford Edsel. It's easy to point out the problems now, but it probably made perfect sense to the people who initiated it back then.
Murphy S.: Just finished reading the PDF by Mr. Myers, all 44 pages of a fascinating autopsy of the Milwaukee's PCE, and all its 'warts'. Very thorough, and speaks to his years of marshaling power in that region...He sure gets a "tip of the Kromer cap" for it.
Oh my God, Don't start this again. Your going to smoke out the idiots that think General Motors did in the Interurban system again. Seriously though the argument that the BN ran the Milwaukee out of business was never supported by former Milwaukee Road employees to a large extent. Most of the former Milwaukee PCE employees point to lack of money and poor physical plant in places along the route. Compared with their later employers (BN, WP, and UP).
BTW, in each successive Milwaukee Road bankruptcy the PCE debt is specifically cited as one of the main contributing reasons why the railroad could not make it financially. It is rather interesting that even though it is pointed to in several bankruptcies not a single Bankruptcy Trustee.......wrote off the damn debt. Nope, they reorganized each time and kept the PCE debt on the books all the way to the sale to the Soo Line. Which I think is pretty ironic.
Question for my knowledge database on the PCE regarding segments that made sense to keep:
I know the PCE across South Dakota from Appleton MN to Terry MT is owned by BNSF and is still being utilized, having originally been purchased by the State of SD and then in turn sold to BN.
Are there are there any other segments of the PCE that is still being utilized west of Terry MT?
St Paul Pass is now a bike trail including the 1.7 mile St Paul Pass (or Taft) Tunnel...
kgbw49 Question for my knowledge database on the PCE regarding segments that made sense to keep: I know the PCE across South Dakota from Appleton MN to Terry MT is owned by BNSF and is still being utilized, having originally been purchased by the State of SD and then in turn sold to BN. Are there are there any other segments of the PCE that is still being utilized west of Terry MT?
"...In contrast, I think this is a good and reasoned analysis.
The Milwaukee's PCE flat out sucked and we're well rid of it..."
If really interested in the PCE you will find a very through study by a very knowledgeable individual.. At the end of the PDF is a name, and link to ask the author directly... ENJOY !
No kidding Milwakee's PCE sucked! Not only did paralleling the NP main line affect thier profits, the route bypassed major population centers, had steep mountain grades and branch lines in extremely remote locations. In fact I once read a doucument that said MILW has been paying for the PCE since 1909!!!
Plus, MILW was not given land grants like the GN and NP and had to purchase the land from private owners or take over them somehow.
The Great Northern Railway was entirely privately funded--unlike all the lines that had already been built to the west coast, it made use of no land grants.
Johnny
kgbw49 Are there are there any other segments of the PCE that is still being utilized west of Terry MT?
A couple of might have beens:
The Milw line between Forsythe and Terry was a bit straighter than the NP line, recall hearing some talk about the BN utilizing that line as a second track.
The line east of Roundup would have been good for routing coal eastbound - ruling grade about 0.6% except for a short segment in North Dakota. The 30% severance tax that Montana imposed on coal shipped out of state was likely the nail in the coffin for the Roundup - Mile City segment.
A few nit-picks on the central Montana discussion (Lewisto to Roy, Winifred and Winnett). The ruling grade from Grass Range and Winnett to Lewiston was 1% with the exception of 2 miles of 2% (should have been easy to double the hill). The line from Winifred was 1% with a 3 mile stretch of 1.5%. The GN line between Lewiston and Grass Range was graded but not track was laid - the better gradient of this line was due to two tunnels. The Grass Range to Winnett section would have been jointly operated by GN and the Milw.
The Winnett area was a significant oiil producing area in the 1920's prior to the discovery of the west Texas oil fields.
Finally a comment on why the PCE was built (as opposed to whether it should have been built). The Board of Directors for the Milw included several men who were also on the board of Anaconda Copper Mining - Stan Johnson's book on the PCE mentioned this as well as discussions about increasing competition for service to Butte and Anaconda which reminded me of the story of the El Paso & Southwestern as covered by Myrick. Demonstrating the benefits of RR electrification was also a consideration, as it presented a large market for copper.
On the second to last page of the linked paper, it lists Snoqualmie Pass at 2852'. Topo maps show the MILW tunnel to be below the 2600' contour line.
http://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=47.3947&lon=-121.4183&z=14
ATSFGuy No kidding Milwakee's PCE sucked! Not only did paralleling the NP main line affect thier profits, the route bypassed major population centers, had steep mountain grades and branch lines in extremely remote locations. In fact I once read a doucument that said MILW has been paying for the PCE since 1909!!! Plus, MILW was not given land grants like the GN and NP and had to purchase the land from private owners or take over them somehow.
The Rockefellers were connected to the Union Pacific Railroad company of E.H. Harriman. They were involved in the sponsorship of the Kuhn & Loeb bank in the United Kingdom and they had numerous business deals with Hitler’s Nazi regime in Germany.
http://theshamecampaign.com/category/bilderberg/
Conspiracy most foul is to blame.
The Milwaukee Road's Pacific Coast Externsion was not killed by the Burlington Nothern (BN) conspiracy. The Bilderberger Illuminati (BI) conspiracy killed the Milwaukee Road's Pacific Coast Extension.
Elvis Presley is alive and well and living in double wide in Montana along the abandon Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension.
Victrola1 ...............Elvis Presley is alive and well and living in double wide in Montana along the abandon Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension.
...............Elvis Presley is alive and well and living in double wide in Montana along the abandon Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension.
Wait a cotton-pickin' minute. I used to live in a double wide trailer near The Milwaukee Road that's now abandoned........and I'm all shook up!
Murphy S.; Are you braggin' or complaining? For years the rumor was that Elvis was working in a McDonalds in Kalamazoo...
Sorta, had I not watched my neighbor's nephew get 'cuffed and stuffed' back in August of '77 (for his part in a plot to dig Elvis up, and hold his body for ransome); I would have bought into that too. Elvis, his mother Gladys, and father Vernon, and his maternal gran'maw, are all firmly ensconsced in the garden at Graceland.
Ask me,sometime, about Jerry Lee, (and the time he drove his Caddy into the Front Gate at Graceland.)
Enough HISTORY for now....
Mr. Meyer has indeed produced a treasure trove of info. Would make a wonderful story, complete with maps and photos, in a certain rail publication that used to provide the space necessary for subjects of this magnitude.
The comment about MILW having a "high degree of exclusivity" in northern Idaho because "there was little reason for other railroads to build there" might leave some folks to forget that NP, GN, and SI (now UP) built main lines and branches in the Idaho panhandle as well. Perhaps the reference was meant to highlight the fact that where MILW did go in northern Idaho, it had little to no paralleling competition. Aside from Coeur d'Alene, that was truly the case.
MILW's branch to Metaline Falls (built by the Idaho & Washington Northern 1909-11, later acquired by MILW) did probe into areas where the other major roads generally stayed away. Same thing for the Elk River branch south of St. Maries. Worth noting that the Metaline Falls branch exited Idaho northwest of Blanchard and remained in Washington the rest of the way up through Newport.
But elsewhere in northern Idaho there were/are plenty of non-MILW branches including (but not limited to) GN's reach from Bonners Ferry northward to the Canadian border at Porthill; the UP/NP/Camas Prairie cluster of branches (unless we're not counting the Lewiston area as part of northern Idaho); the NP, GN, and SI branches to Coeur d'Alene, all three of which reached that city before MILW did; UP's branch through Plummer and on east to Wallace as well as up the North Fork of the CdA River into the CdA mining district; and NP's branch over Lookout Pass to reach Mullan and Wallace. Sadly, the vast majority of the branch lines I just described are long gone.
It took the Milwaukee two attempts and line changes to get it's mainline West of Milwaukee on the current alignment.
1. Milwaukee to Mississippi (Prarie Du Chien) via Brookfield, WI then onto Iowa via pontoon bridge (downgraded to branch line).....mostly operated by W&S today.
2. Milwaukee to Portage via Horicon (some operated by W&S today).
3. Milwaukee to Portage via Columbus (final mainline). Merger with the Milwaukee and LaCrosse RR..............operated by CP today.
The MILW in the Idaho/ Bitterroot Mountains area has a 'supporting role' in the 2009 book "The Big Burn" by Timothy Egan, about a monstrous forest fire in August 1910 - largest in US history, 3 million acres burned, 85 people killed:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/timothy-egan-on-the-big-burn-141529464/
His description of the railroads is a little too simplistic, populist, and muck-raking for me. However, in about a page he summarizes the faults of the MILW construction in that area, mainly the costs that greatly exceeded expectations. The copy I had went back to the library about 2 weeks ago, so I can't provide any more info than that.
- Paul North.
After having read the link provided by the OP, I came to the conclusion that the Pacific Coast Extension was late to the party and consequently missed the best routes. It also seemed to be pretty much a shoestring operation after it was built. In retrospect, it's not surprising that the trustee abandoned the line when he did.
Outside of the PCE, where did the MilW excel?
Did they have any good routes?
I still find it amusing this railroad built all the way from Chicago to the Pacific Coast and had track in South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Indiana just for kicks.
WOW! 645 miles of thrack from Chicago to Seattle!!! Amazing isn't it?
http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/EconomicStudies/WesternExtensionKellowStudy1978.pdf
ATSFGuy Outside of the PCE, where did the MilW excel? Did they have any good routes?
They excelled at branding, which explains a lot of the love....
I'm not sure any of the bits left would cost out vs. the alternatives in a mega-merger roundup. Maybe Chicago - Twin Cities?
jeffhergert http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/EconomicStudies/WesternExtensionKellowStudy1978.pdf
Thanks for sharing, Jeff. A quick perusal found the methodology and description to be interesting.
It certainly lends credence to the OP's titling of this Thread:" RE: Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension - it seems to have sucked."
"Sucked" seems to have be a remark for the Annals of Understatement, concerning the Pacific Coast Extebsion. The Milwaukee Road was undoubtedly, late to the party in the Pacific Northwest: seems that the construction into that region could be laid to an 'ego trip' by an individual(?)
as a pure ego trip.
"...The “Pacific Extension” of the Milwaukee Road was financed by Rockefeller money. In 1900, William Rockefeller, brother of John D. Rockefeller, obtained control of the Anaconda Copper Company, with its copper mine and smelter near Butte, Montana. Rockefeller wanted to build a third railroad from the Midwest to Puget Sound to gain access to the growing Asia trade and to the riches in between. The Milwaukee Road was the third railroad connecting the Midwest with the Northwest, following the Northern Pacific (completed in 1884, going over Stampede Pass to Tacoma) and the Great Northern (completed in 1893, going over Stevens Pass into Seattle). Union Pacific completed its Oregon Short Line from its main line in Wyoming, through Idaho to Portland in 1884, with a route connecting to Seattle.
In 1901, a survey estimated the Milwaukee Road’s Pacific Extension would cost $45 million, later increased to $60 million. The route was expensive because of high right-of-way and construction costs. Unlike the Union Pacific and Northern Pacific, the Milwaukee Road was not given government land grants or other subsidies, and had to purchase land from private landowners, and take over small, new, or floundering railroads across the region. The 2,300 mile route was 18 miles shorter than its competitors, but it bypassed major population centers, passed through areas with limited local traffic potential, its tracks paralleled the Northern Pacific tracks, and went through some of the nations’ most varied and difficult topography. It crossed five mountain ranges: the Belts, Rockies, Bitterroots, Saddles, and Cascades, which required major civil engineering works and the use of additional locomotive power..."
Quote from website @ http://mtsgreenway.org/blog/legacy-of-the-milwaukee-road-railway
There is that link to the Dynasties of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
ATSFGuyOutside of the PCE, where did the MilW excel? Did they have any good routes?
(And yes, there were some decidedly bad portions of the route. For fun, tell me how at how many miles from the Chicago terminal did the speed of an eastbound F7 Hudson drop below 100mph...)
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