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First Round of Trumps Rail / Infrastructure Plans

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Posted by PJS1 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 8:46 PM

tree68

 

 
JPS1
Toll roads are not politically popular among many people in Texas.  At least one member of the Texas legislator has proposed buying out Cintra's stake in Texas 130 and removing the tolls, but the proposal has not gotten any traction. 

 

Once a toll road, always a toll road.  The NYS Thruway was supposed to be free of tolls several years ago, but they remain.

MassPike has removed the tollbooths, but tolls are still collected electronically, either by transponder, or by billing the registered owner of the vehicle (via photographing the license plate). 

Not Always.  The Dallas Fort Worth Turnpike, which became I-30 between Big D and Cowtown, was authorized by the Texas Legislature in 1953.  It was a toll road between the two cities. It cost $58.5 million and was opened in 1955.  The bonds to pay for the highway were paid off on December 31, 1977, and the highway was handed over to TXDOT.  Toll collection ceased, and the toll booths were removed the following week.  

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 8:16 PM

JPS1
Toll roads are not politically popular among many people in Texas.  At least one member of the Texas legislator has proposed buying out Cintra's stake in Texas 130 and removing the tolls, but the proposal has not gotten any traction. 

Once a toll road, always a toll road.  The NYS Thruway was supposed to be free of tolls several years ago, but they remain.

MassPike has removed the tollbooths, but tolls are still collected electronically, either by transponder, or by billing the registered owner of the vehicle (via photographing the license plate).

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Posted by PJS1 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 6:58 PM

"When a private investor funds infrastructure that collects user tolls and pays off the private investor with those tolls, I would not consider that infrastructure to be public."

TXDOT retains ownership of the highways that Cintra helped fund.  In exchange for putting up the funds to build or expand the roadways mentioned, Cintra gets the right to collect the tolls for a period long long enough for it to recover its outlays and earn a reasonable rate of return. The highways that Cintra has funded in Texas are public infrastructure from the get-go.  

Toll roads are not politically popular among many people in Texas.  At least one member of the Texas legislator has proposed buying out Cintra's stake in Texas 130 and removing the tolls, but the proposal has not gotten an traction. 

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 2:23 PM

zugmann
Open criticism of the government is one of the foundations of this country.  God knows there was plenty of it in the last administrtaion (and those people had the same right).

That fundamental right looks to be on shaky ground since Jan. 20.

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 2:21 PM

zugmann

 

 
schlimm
Reality: Empirical studies have shown over and over that charter and other private schools K-12 have no better outcomes than public schools serving the same demographic base.

 

 

Almost like there are other factors at play - like parental involvement and societal thought (when you have a society that generally doesn't really respect education - can we really be shocked?)

 

 

As I said, demographics being equal.  Show me a school district where the homes are high priced and I'll show you a high achieving district based on any test scores you choose.

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 2:06 PM

Norm48327
Hey Euclid: I thought you said no one was bashing politicians.

You act like it is a bad thing.  Open criticism of the government is one of the foundations of this country.  God knows there was plenty of it in the last administrtaion (and those people had the same right).

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 2:05 PM

schlimm
Your young man's case is sad, but now we have a POTUS (product of private schools) who doesn't know who our allies are and thinks Putin is a great leader

Hey  Euclid:

I thought you said no one was bashing politicians.

Norm


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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 2:04 PM

schlimm
Reality: Empirical studies have shown over and over that charter and other private schools K-12 have no better outcomes than public schools serving the same demographic base.

 

Almost like there are other factors at play - like parental involvement and societal thought (when you have a society that generally doesn't really respect education - can we really be shocked?)

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 1:54 PM

Deggesty

 

 
CSSHEGEWISCH

Let's see, Betsy DeVos wants to privatize public education, George W Bush partially privatized war with the various and sundry private security firms (mercenaries) in Iraq.  Any other suggestions??

 

 

 

Betsy DeVos wants schools to educate the students so that they are able to read, write, know the history of the country, and do whatever is necessary to be of value when they graduate. I find it interesting that the schools which spend the most per pupil have extremely poor records in this regard. 

 

About twenty-five years ago, I worked with a young man who did not know who our enemies were in the Second World War.

 

Reality:  Empirical studies have shown over and over that for-profit charter schools and other privatized schools K-12 have no better outcomes than public schools serving the same demographic base.  They make a tidy profit for management, while often paying the teachers less.  Their main "success" is in being selective in enrollment and retention.

Your young man's case is sad, but now we have a POTUS (product of private schools) who doesn't know who our allies are and thinks Putin is a great leader

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 1:48 PM

dehusman

One thing to think about regarding privitization of "public" infrastructure is the justification for the services are not dependent on need, but on profit.

Privitization of the road structure sounds good, but what happens when the "profit" is marginal.  Railroads are private entities, when they have lines that fall below a profitability threshold, they abandon or sell off the underperforming lines.  Would a private owner want to maintain a highway in a rural area to a high standard?  How much of the highway network in the western US, outside of the interstate system, would be economically viable to operate and make a profit?

 

+1 Good post.  Apparently extremists continue to believe the myth that the profit motive guarantees that operations are always better by insisting it is more efficient.  For a dose of reality, I suggest looking at the best hospitals.  They are mostly non-profits. 

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 1:18 PM

Norm48327
While that statement is true, does it justify bashing current-day politicians one just happens to dislike?

Yes.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 12:58 PM

Euclid
Norm,

Nobody is bashing politicians here.  It is mostly Economics 101.

And Alternate Economics 101

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 12:42 PM

Norm,

Nobody is bashing politicians here.  It is mostly Economics 101. 

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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 12:31 PM

BaltACD
Remember railroads and politics have been entwined in each other since local merchants in Baltimore came up with the idea of building a railroad instead of a canal to enhance economic activity in Baltimore back in 1827.

While that statement is true, does it justify bashing current-day politicians one just happens to dislike? It goes on on both sides of the fence and is getting boring.

Norm


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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 12:23 PM

carnej1
The folks who enjoy off topic political bickering should have their own sub-forum..

Remember railroads and politics have been entwined in each other since local merchants in Baltimore came up with the idea of building a railroad instead of a canal to enhance economic activity in Baltimore back in 1827. 

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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 11:43 AM

carnej1
The folks who enjoy off topic political bickering should have their own sub-forum..

Amen to that, but other sites with political sub-forums have closed them because politics keeps inching back into the main forum.

Norm


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Posted by carnej1 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 11:18 AM

 I wonder what the over-and-under is on this thread being locked after a few more posts?

 The folks who enjoy off topic political bickering should have their own sub-forum..

 

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 11:13 AM

greyhounds
 
dehusman
One thing to think about regarding privitization of "public" infrastructure is the justification for the services are not dependent on need, but on profit. Privitization of the road structure sounds good, but what happens when the "profit" is marginal.  Railroads are private entities, when they have lines that fall below a profitability threshold, they abandon or sell off the underperforming lines.  Would a private owner want to maintain a highway in a rural area to a high standard?  How much of the highway network in the western US, outside of the interstate system, would be economically viable to operate and make a profit?

 

How are you determining "need"?  And how are you defining "Profit"?

Anyone can say:  "We need this or that."  But if they people who "Need" it are unwilling to pay the costs to cover the benefits, the road (or whatever) will be a net loss to our society.  What you seem to be seeking is a cross subsidy for rural people.  A system where others are taxed to pay for something from which they receive no significant benefit makes the society less well off.

As to "Profit", it has come to be used so as to wrongly include the cost of capital.  Capital is a necessary input just like labor, fuel, etc.  And just like labor, fuel, etc. it must be paid for.  It has a cost.  If the rural people don't benefit enough from their roads to pay all the costs, why have the road?  Politics? 

 

Absolutely right.  Profit is necessary.  Government waste is not.

Capital is an essential component of a free market system of producing goods and services.  You can’t set up a lemonade stand without capital.  Capital costs money and that cost comes before a business makes any money.  So someone has to provide that capital money on the bet that the business will succeed and pay back the capital investment.

But that is not a sure bet.  Any business can fail to pay back the capital investment.  So a person who invests in startup capital takes a risk of losing that invested money.

Profit is the reward for taking that risk.  Nobody would risk losing the startup investment or be willing to make the ongoing commitment to running a business without the reward of profit.  Profit is not evil, as the Marxists teach.  Profit is an essential economic component of a free market system.

So, yes, when you privatize government functions, you introduce profit.  But the cost of profit is what makes it work.  And at the same time that you introduce profit, you eliminate the wastefulness of government overhead.  There is no benefit in that waste.  It is entirely parasitic. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 10:38 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

Let's see, Betsy DeVos wants to privatize public education, George W Bush partially privatized war with the various and sundry private security firms (mercenaries) in Iraq.  Any other suggestions??

 

Betsy DeVos wants schools to educate the students so that they are able to read, write, know the history of the country, and do whatever is necessary to be of value when they graduate. I find it interesting that the schools which spend the most per pupil have extremely poor records in this regard. 

About twenty-five years ago, I worked with a young man who did not know who our enemies were in the Second World War.

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Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 10:36 AM

dehusman
One thing to think about regarding privitization of "public" infrastructure is the justification for the services are not dependent on need, but on profit. Privitization of the road structure sounds good, but what happens when the "profit" is marginal.  Railroads are private entities, when they have lines that fall below a profitability threshold, they abandon or sell off the underperforming lines.  Would a private owner want to maintain a highway in a rural area to a high standard?  How much of the highway network in the western US, outside of the interstate system, would be economically viable to operate and make a profit?

How are you determining "need"?  And how are you defining "Profit"?

Anyone can say:  "We need this or that."  But if they people who "Need" it are unwilling to pay the costs to cover the benefits, the road (or whatever) will be a net loss to our society.  What you seem to be seeking is a cross subsidy for rural people.  A system where others are taxed to pay for something from which they receive no significant benefit makes the society less well off.

As to "Profit", it has come to be used so as to wrongly include the cost of capital.  Capital is a necessary input just like labor, fuel, etc.  And just like labor, fuel, etc. it must be paid for.  It has a cost.  If the rural people don't benefit enough from their roads to pay all the costs, why have the road?  Politics? 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 9:37 AM

Norm48327

Far too much political opinion from one side in this thread. Time for some people to grow up and accept reality. Angry SoapBox

Reality has been accepted - how to deal with the reality is the question that needs to be worked with, as reality seems to be a erratically moving concept.

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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 9:29 AM

Far too much political opinion from one side in this thread. Time for some people to grow up and accept reality. Angry SoapBox

Norm


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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 8:39 AM

One thing to think about regarding privitization of "public" infrastructure is the justification for the services are not dependent on need, but on profit.

Privitization of the road structure sounds good, but what happens when the "profit" is marginal.  Railroads are private entities, when they have lines that fall below a profitability threshold, they abandon or sell off the underperforming lines.  Would a private owner want to maintain a highway in a rural area to a high standard?  How much of the highway network in the western US, outside of the interstate system, would be economically viable to operate and make a profit?

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 8:38 AM

BaltACD
 
CSSHEGEWISCH
Let's see, Betsy DeVos wants to privatize public education, George W Bush partially privatized war with the various and sundry private security firms (mercenaries) in Iraq.  Any other suggestions??

 

Seeing Trump's resistance to separating himself from his businesses, it appears we have privatized to Presidency.

 

...Or heading for a form of progressivism government called Adminstrative State.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 8:23 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Let's see, Betsy DeVos wants to privatize public education, George W Bush partially privatized war with the various and sundry private security firms (mercenaries) in Iraq.  Any other suggestions??

Seeing Trump's resistance to separating himself from his businesses, it appears we have privatized to Presidency.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 7:31 AM

Let's see, Betsy DeVos wants to privatize public education, George W Bush partially privatized war with the various and sundry private security firms (mercenaries) in Iraq.  Any other suggestions??

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, February 7, 2017 7:27 AM

alphas
the productivity of the average worker definitely was less than what I experienced in industry. 

I worked in data processing, and the message center for a number of years for the Army.  For security reasons, there had to be at least two people working.  And once the data processing was done, the messages logged, and any ancillary chores were completed, it usually was a matter of finding a magazine to read (or other activity).  

On the other hand, there were times when taking a break was a challenge.

 

I always found it curious that anyone would be able to study production efficience in such a situation.  You can only process the widgets that you're sent to process...

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Posted by alphas on Monday, February 6, 2017 11:18 PM

I've worked in both government & industry.   The pay was about the same for the job but the government benefits were so much better that the overall cost per job was higher for the government.    But it took some getting used to working in government as the productivity of the average worker definitely was less than what I experienced in industry.     And there really wasn't any award for being an above average government worker.

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, February 6, 2017 9:50 PM

I think privatization would be good, but I agree that it would not be easy.  Government would take it as an act of war and fight it every inch of the way.  Fundamentally, government wants to grow for its own interest, and looks for ways to grow.  But if privatization could be done, I do not believe that the profit of privatization would wipe out the savings in government overhead.  I think that savings of government overhead would be at least ten times a fair and healthy profit.  It would add immense new prosperity to society.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, February 6, 2017 9:44 PM

tree68

There were some attempts to farm certain functions out to contractors, but usually the job eventually came back to the government activity, with government workers doing the work.

 

 
A somewhat example is the Atlanta, ga water system.  Farmed out to a private operator but found they could not do work and finally city took it back and city used workers for cross discipline work ( water, sewer, roads, other public works )  

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