CMStPnP schlimm The Hiawatha service schedule is not padded. It is about the same as the best trains were on that run on both the Milwaukee and CNW - 89 minutes. Ehhh, it is a padded schedule I ride the train. Pretty sure from your armchair comments you have not ridden the train ever. Best train time on that route is not 89 minutes either......75 minutes nonstop was fairly normal in the mid-1950's. Back then Milwaukee to the Illinois border was much more congested with traffic as well. So if anything that time should be matched or better today.
schlimm The Hiawatha service schedule is not padded. It is about the same as the best trains were on that run on both the Milwaukee and CNW - 89 minutes.
Ehhh, it is a padded schedule I ride the train. Pretty sure from your armchair comments you have not ridden the train ever. Best train time on that route is not 89 minutes either......75 minutes nonstop was fairly normal in the mid-1950's. Back then Milwaukee to the Illinois border was much more congested with traffic as well. So if anything that time should be matched or better today.
As is your custom, you spout claims that are not factual and ignore any and all who attempt to set the record straight
In the late 1950s, the Milwaukee Road (same ROW) ran four trains daily, CHI-MKE with times of 1:18 to 1:20, making only ONE intermediate stop in Glenview. Today's Hiawatha Service manages the run seven times on weekdays in 1:29, making THREE intermediate stops (Glenview, Sturtevant and Milwaukee Airport). If you do not think those two additional stops add any time to the run, then perhaps you should ask one of our experts how much time is lost decelerating from 79 mph to a stop, spending 2-3 minutes halted, and accelerating back to 79 mph, X2.
In 1955, the Olympian Hiawatha made the run in the 75 minutes (85 reverse direction), but it was NONSTOP. Obviously you require fact checking.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnPThere was actually one time we almost made a 79 min schedule into Union Station but again the METRA traffic control stopped us a little short. I think a 75 min schedule is achievable now without further investment just by better traffic management.
Everybody does great at dispatching one train. Dispatching an entire segment of railroad is geometrically more difficult.
Have had numerous T&E crew members that thought Dispatching was easy. Then they went through dispatcher training and actually tried to become dispatchers. Some made it through, some didn't. Those that made it through the training and on job qualification training now say they never realized how much more involved the process is when you are dealing with 10-15-20 or more trains and MofW requirements, rather than just operating the throttle in accordance with signal indication.
It is easy to say you can do better, it is much harder to get into a position and actually do it. Those that are doing the job are far from the idiots those not doing the job percieve them to be.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CMStPnP ..........But soon there are going to 10 trains each way Milwaukee to Chicago and over 1 million people riding that route. ......
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Deggesty I had alwaysconsidered "padding" to be a legitimate term to describe the adding of time between the penultimate stop and the ultimate stop of a train. For instance, #5 (the California Zephyr) is given 34 minutes to go from Union Station and pick passengers up at Naperville; # 6 is given 57 minutes after leaving Naperville to arrive in Chicago. As to losing one's slot, I think of leaving Chicago more than two hours late because of congestion east of Chicago which delayed both the Lake Shore Limited and the Capitol Limited, losing time across Iowa, leaving Lincoln about five hours late, and arriving in Salt Lake City at least seven hours late after making the fastest time I ever knew between Provo and Salt Lake City (enough padding just wasn't there west of Provo--!:05 SLC to Provo; 1:39 Provo to SLC).
I had alwaysconsidered "padding" to be a legitimate term to describe the adding of time between the penultimate stop and the ultimate stop of a train. For instance, #5 (the California Zephyr) is given 34 minutes to go from Union Station and pick passengers up at Naperville; # 6 is given 57 minutes after leaving Naperville to arrive in Chicago.
As to losing one's slot, I think of leaving Chicago more than two hours late because of congestion east of Chicago which delayed both the Lake Shore Limited and the Capitol Limited, losing time across Iowa, leaving Lincoln about five hours late, and arriving in Salt Lake City at least seven hours late after making the fastest time I ever knew between Provo and Salt Lake City (enough padding just wasn't there west of Provo--!:05 SLC to Provo; 1:39 Provo to SLC).
So think of this, the Chicago to Milwaukee run is at the most 92 mins long, it actually averages 90-95 min with the regular delays. I never saw a Chicago to Milwaukee Amtrak train in my lifetime leave Milwaukee hours late if it was a corridor train. I am sure there are extraordinary conditions when that might happen. However the so called "Windows" the previous poster was referring to are probably 10 min wide which given the distance traveled a single CTC red signal can probably disrupt. So like I said simpleton band aid approach to arailroading problem......where money should be spent to fix the problem vs a band-aid solution.
Everytime I have ridden Milwaukee Chicago there have been the usual station stops plus two more unplanned stops in METRA territory. Never is it a nonstop roll into Union Station from the last station stop, dispatcher or signalling system always stops the train two more times at the very least for 5 min. Never had that issue outside of METRA territory.
There was actually one time we almost made a 79 min schedule into Union Station but again the METRA traffic control stopped us a little short. I think a 75 min schedule is achievable now without further investment just by better traffic management.
Just like when I rode the Texas Eagle on a Holiday when there were limited UPRR freight trains getting in the way, could easily see there was at least 4-6 hours of schedule padding between Chicago and Dallas......easily. Now that is fine for a once a day LD train. But soon there are going to 10 trains each way Milwaukee to Chicago and over 1 million people riding that route. Should we really spend that taxpayer money if there is no motivation by Chicago to improve Amtrak running time via better management?
Johnny
There is a big difference between arranging for legitimate slack in a schedule and 'padding', which is usually a pejorative term that means excessive or needless slack allowance has been provided. I am not familiar with either the train or its usual delays, but if its schedule time is remarkably longer than a calculated running time, or if station or other stops are ridiculously extended, then a claim of 'padding' would likely have merit.
One way to tell might be if the train can keep 'schedule' even when there are extraordinary delays. Not that bureaucrats running numbers from armchairs necessarily care, mind you, but people actually riding the train would indeed begin to notice...
CMStPnP schlimm Ehhh genius, it is a padded schedule I ride the train. Pretty sure from your armchair comments you have not set foot on it.
schlimm
Ehhh genius, it is a padded schedule I ride the train. Pretty sure from your armchair comments you have not set foot on it.
Any organization that sets 'schedules' at running time is bound to have a 0% On Time performance. The real world presents real interference points and operations that must be routinely accounted for with the scheduling. Any one train is not the only train on the line.
When it comes to schedule setting the normal priorities are - Amtrak - Commuter Rail, Priority Intermodal, Priority Automotive, Scheduled through Mercandise, Scheduled Local Freights, unscheduled bulk commodity trains. If any of the scheduled trains are delayed to the point that they are outside the schedule window - the sledding for them gets difficult as they are now in the windows of other scheduled services. Who do you give 'priority' to? The one train that is out of its window or the 10 to 20 trains that are in their proper windows - when you get measured on On Time operation there isn't much of a choice - the greater number of OT trains beat out the single failure every time. Historically, trains that are outside their window will lose time on their runs as it loses in all the decisions that must be made about it's operation.
The schedules among the various catagories of trains give each segments of the clock where they can operate withoug negatively affecting the other catagories - any of the trains the fall out of their windows then get the decision process going against them. Track Time on a railroad is a very precious commodity with more users seeking it than there are minutes in the day.
All forms of transportation 'pad' their schedules so as to be able to offer ON TIME performance. Air Lines will put out a 2.5 hour trip time for a flight that only has 1.75 hours air time - it has to get away from the gate on time and into who knows what type of take off pattern - as it approaches destination it may get held in the air for a slot to land and once on the ground it may be held for a gate to become available.
BaltACDObviously you have never tried to schedule a real world - sustainable operation. Shortest running time is not real world schedule time.
I would think Frieght railroad non-time sensitive dispatching experience would be irrelevant to the discussion here. Seen the model in operation at various locals where crews just sit in a stopped train idling away, sometimes sleeping. We are talking High Speed Passenger Rail here intermixed with commutter rail. And of course I have ridden mixed passenger train type operations in Europe where the high speed passenger train is rarely late and the schedule is not padded.........have you?
schlimmThe Hiawatha service schedule is not padded. It is about the same as the best trains were on that run on both the Milwaukee and CNW - 89 minutes.
CMStPnP:
As usual, you really do not know what you are talking about. Even elementary statistics requires that you begin with accuracy. The Hiawatha service schedule is not padded. It is about the same as the best trains were on that run on both the Milwaukee and CNW - 89 minutes.
The bridge at StL is a problem.
CMStPnP schlimm 97-98% on time when using an already padded schedule. I thought you were college educated and knew something about stats gathering. Are those really good stats when there is a significant fudge factor on the timetable? Using that same logic, why rebuild the bridge into St. Louis for higher speed. 30-45 min to cross a medium sized river is perfectly OK and besides the trains are ontime according to the schedule. You really think the riding public enjoys that duration of slow speed and doesn't notice it?
97-98% on time when using an already padded schedule. I thought you were college educated and knew something about stats gathering. Are those really good stats when there is a significant fudge factor on the timetable?
Using that same logic, why rebuild the bridge into St. Louis for higher speed. 30-45 min to cross a medium sized river is perfectly OK and besides the trains are ontime according to the schedule. You really think the riding public enjoys that duration of slow speed and doesn't notice it?
Obviously you have never tried to schedule a real world - sustainable operation.
Shortest running time is not real world schedule time.
schlimm+1 He also has a tendency to make ridiculous claims with no factual evidence. 97-98% on time seems pretty good. https://www.amtrak.com/hiawatha-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageVerticalRouteOverview
n012944From talking to a couple of people I know that used to dispatch that line, Amtrak has windows to hit in Metra territory. When Amtrak fails to hit those windows, the trains fall in line with Metra's traffic. Quite frankly that is the way it should work, and most people understand that. The previous poster just has a dislike for anything Illinois, and it seems to cloud his judgement.
Of course, why select the best approach when the third best approach is always easier.......thats what really made illinois the state it is today <not>.
The "Windows" approach to running a railroad is a cheap assed simpleton approach, that most rational people would view as a band aid. Amtrak should have priority over any other train on the line being express passenger. If there is not enough sidings or line capacity to give Amtrak priority then build it as part of the HSR plan.
Agree with Moorman and the reporter in the video clip, it is the height of both lunacy and idiocy to pay tens of billions of dollars for HSR to speed up passenger trains, paying attention to every minute and then squander 10-30 minutes because some chowderhead wants to give a Commutter train priority over an express train or we are too cheap to build additional rail tunnels. Like I said before if the signalling systems and track capacity are not there then build or upgrade them.
The ships name is the day Peckinpauh. Built in 1921 and retired in 1994. She is 259 feet long built to haul dry bulk cargos. She was the last of the canal motor freighter. Last working for erie sand and gravel on the owsego NY to Rome NY cement run. Thankfully saved from the torch.
Interestingly enough the state of new York reported that the nys barge handled slightly more than 100000 tons of freight, including stone products and wheat barged from Canada Thur the system in 2013. Not a bad number for system built in 1834.
When we are out having fun on our pleasure boats on the canal today, we still have to give way to the commercial big boys.
CMStPnP Murphy Siding It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train. That all depends on how the argument is framed and what the priority of HSR is given. I would expect that as the numbers on the Milwaukee to Chicago route on an annual basis North of 800,000 riders continues to rise and the delays by a bureaucratic METRA continue to increase as well as the track charges. The Feds will intervene at some point and tell Chicago to get their trains out of the way or lose ownership of the tracks and dispatching. Now if you take this one corridor and look at the other METRA caused delays via the other hub lines into CUS, the argument becomes stronger for METRA to step aside. Same argument can be made in the Northeast Corridor with NJ Transit, Metro-North and others to return dispatching and rail ownership to Amtrak and return to a tenant arrangement. Have my doubts that local state or regional ownership of National rail lines or dispatching of them will continue very much longer into the future when a HSR corridor is impacted. Only a matter of time before that bridge is crossed.
Murphy Siding It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
That all depends on how the argument is framed and what the priority of HSR is given. I would expect that as the numbers on the Milwaukee to Chicago route on an annual basis North of 800,000 riders continues to rise and the delays by a bureaucratic METRA continue to increase as well as the track charges. The Feds will intervene at some point and tell Chicago to get their trains out of the way or lose ownership of the tracks and dispatching. Now if you take this one corridor and look at the other METRA caused delays via the other hub lines into CUS, the argument becomes stronger for METRA to step aside.
Same argument can be made in the Northeast Corridor with NJ Transit, Metro-North and others to return dispatching and rail ownership to Amtrak and return to a tenant arrangement.
Have my doubts that local state or regional ownership of National rail lines or dispatching of them will continue very much longer into the future when a HSR corridor is impacted. Only a matter of time before that bridge is crossed.
dehusman tree68 ROBERT WILLISON What your missing on the tolls supporting the nys barge canal is that the nys thurway helped destroy the economies of many of on canal cities. I have no doubt. I haven't made a study of the topic. I studied the canals in eastern PA. What killed them was the railroads. The canal handled 10 times the tonnage of the railroad the first year the railroad opened, within 5 years the roles reversed and the railroads were handled 10 times what the canals were hauling. This was in the 1840's.
tree68 ROBERT WILLISON What your missing on the tolls supporting the nys barge canal is that the nys thurway helped destroy the economies of many of on canal cities. I have no doubt. I haven't made a study of the topic.
ROBERT WILLISON What your missing on the tolls supporting the nys barge canal is that the nys thurway helped destroy the economies of many of on canal cities.
I have no doubt. I haven't made a study of the topic.
Canal barges continued to haul fuel oil and cement into the 90's.
The last motorship belong to Erie sand and gravel. I can't remember her name, but was laidup in Erie PA until she was purchased by the state of new York and sailed to the nys yards near Schenectady for refit and return to service as a museum ship and happily motors thur the system every year.
The canal still see commercial traffic in the form of cruise ships, tugs and barges.
About 7 or 8 years ago barges of over sized towers were loaded in Schenectady and barges East Thur the nys barge canal, the federal lock near Waterford ny and East towards nyc.
The last chapter for commercial traffic had yet to be written for the nys barge canal.
+1He also has a tendency to make ridiculous claims with no factual evidence. 97-98% on time seems pretty good.
https://www.amtrak.com/hiawatha-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageVerticalRouteOverview
Amtrak also has to work with the MBTA--two years ago, I rode from Providence to Boston, and my train was late to the point that we left behind an MBTA train, which stopped along the way, and we simply had to creep up behind him at the stop.
Murphy Siding schlimm CMStPnP It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains. Those pesky, particular Metra lines that seem to inconvenience you carry 70,000 "Joe Lunchpails" to and from work in the Loop daily. Tough luck!! It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
schlimm CMStPnP It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains. Those pesky, particular Metra lines that seem to inconvenience you carry 70,000 "Joe Lunchpails" to and from work in the Loop daily. Tough luck!!
CMStPnP It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
Those pesky, particular Metra lines that seem to inconvenience you carry 70,000 "Joe Lunchpails" to and from work in the Loop daily. Tough luck!!
It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
Very much so. I would also be willing to bet that many riders getting on Metra at stops like Lake Forest, Deerfeild, and Glenview have far more polictial clout than a few cheeseheads looking to flee Packer land.
From talking to a couple of people I know that used to dispatch that line, Amtrak has windows to hit in Metra territory. When Amtrak fails to hit those windows, the trains fall in line with Metra's traffic. Quite frankly that is the way it should work, and most people understand that. The previous poster just has a dislike for anything Illinois, and it seems to cloud his judgement.
An "expensive model collector"
Murphy SidingIt seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
^^^^ Which is why I think the solution is eventually the Feds will need to impose eminent domain to return some rail lines to federal ownership. State or local level ownership rarely follows a management method that is in the best interest of the public traveling on rail corridors.
CMStPnPIt is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
My grandfather, whose name was Joe, called it a “dinner pail,” according to this letter written by my father, whose name also was Joe.
1976 letter to Railroad Magazine - Old Days on the CV
I was delighted to read about the Central Vermont's three Pacifics in the June Information Booth because I grew up with the CV and my father fired and ran its 230's. I was actually standing among the people lined along the old cast-iron fence on Feb. 4, 1928, when the 232 posed for the photo you published. I was then 13 years old. It was a happy day for St. Albans, Vt., because this was the first train to run on the Northern Division after three months of reconstruction from the big flood of 1927. Among the dignitaries in the three-car train was Sir Henry Thornton, president of the Canadian National.
The flood damage had sent the CV into receivership. Prior to that CN had owned two-thirds of its stock, but the Central Vermont had been run pretty much by itself under the aegis of E.C. Smith, grandson of the founder. CV engines were painted in their own livery, which had no resemblance to the Canadian National's. They bore the name Central Vermont on the side of the cab, with the engine number in larger figures on the sides and rear of the tender and in small digits on the sand dome, all lettering and numerals being white. The engines were painted a solid black, except for light gray smokeboxes and the white-rimmed wheels.
But to the dismay of onlookers, including myself, the 232 came down from the engine house and under the train shed painted - for the first time for any CV engine - in Canadian National livery. There were a gilded number on the side of the cab, a removable small number plate in white paint on the rear of the tender, no number at all on the sand dome, and the name Central Vermont in gilt enclosed in a titled rectangle on the tender. Engine and tender were now CN dark green and not black.
Obviously, CN had taken over at last. Our own railroad had fallen beneath the November rains, but was rescued by the 5000 workers whom CN had put on the job for three months. And now CN was showing us, by imposing its own livery, who was the boss. On July 29, 1929, when Central Vermont Railway property was sold at public auction, the Canadian National acquired 100 percent of the stock as the only successful bidder. The line became the Central Vermont Railway, Inc. and the Smith family was out.
So the photo you published brought back memories - those I have just related and those of my own CV job. I began working in St. Albans at age 12 as a messenger boy in the telegraph and dispatchers' office (shown in the photograph just behind the 232's smokebox). I continued working for CV through my high school years, also putting in a summer vacation from college on an extra gang, laying rail in the Green Mountains. That ended my rail career until I was appointed two years ago to the Amtrak board of directors.
There were actually four 230's, numbered 230-233 inclusive. But in the early 1920s or perhaps earlier, the 233 was in bad shape, needing a heavy overhaul. The Canadian National had a small 2-6-0, fresh from the shops, for which the CV decided to swap the 233 rather than spend the money on overhauling the Pacific. The new acquisition, the 2-6-0, was numbered 397. It was not a good swap
The CV leased five Pacifics from Canadian National and numbered them 234 through 238. They were slightly heavier than the 230-232, but the 238 was the original CV 233 back on her home rails until the arrival in 1927 of the 600-603, all 4-6-2's, enabled the company to send back the engines.
These details are vivid to me because in 1924 I used to take my father's dinner pail down to him at 6:10 a.m. when The Montrealer stopped in St. Albans. He was fireman on the train, which five leased engines handled regularly. Many a ride I had on the 230's from the enginehouse to the station as a reward for toting his dinner pail, as well as a cab ride with him from Montreal to St. Albans.
In 1945, an uncle let me run the 231 on the late night local passenger train, No. 304, from Bethel to White River Jct. Many years later, when my small sons and I were visiting St. Albans, I was permitted to run the Canadian National 6218 from the ash pit to the switch, 500 feet. The boys were amazed that I could possibly know how to run that big 4-8-4. Well, I had learned on the 230's when I was their age.
Joseph V. MacDonald
Joe Lunchpail vs. Joesph Threemartinilunch
CMStPnP Chicago METRA territory where it usually gets stuck behind a slow moving METRA train or they block one of the mainlines while Joe Lunchpail attempts to reverse direction of his METRA train. Why spend the money on HSR to only have a fraction of a 85 mile corridor be high speed? It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
Looks like someone got up and put on his angry pants. Joe Lunchpail indeed.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
We have the same issue in Wisconsin as they do in the Northeast with Amtrak, You take a relatively fast Amtrak train South of Milwaukee and it runs fast all the way to Chicago METRA territory where it usually gets stuck behind a slow moving METRA train or they block one of the mainlines while Joe Lunchpail attempts to reverse direction of his METRA train. Why spend the money on HSR to only have a fraction of a 85 mile corridor be high speed? It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJ9apeo9Gs&t=28m10s
BLS53 . The contractor staffed the tower with 6 controllers, with 1 or 2 on a shift, depending on the amount of traffic for the time of day.
. The contractor staffed the tower with 6 controllers, with 1 or 2 on a shift, depending on the amount of traffic for the time of day.
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