tree68 One thing keeping tolls on the NYS Thruway was putting the canal system (NYS Barge Canal, nee the Erie Canal) under the Thruway Authority. A season's pass for the canal for a 16' to 26' pleasure boat is only $50. And it's not like it's bow to stern on the canal. There was some grumbling when that happened, but I'm sure many Thruway users don't have a clue. They just pay the tolls and keep on rolling...
One thing keeping tolls on the NYS Thruway was putting the canal system (NYS Barge Canal, nee the Erie Canal) under the Thruway Authority.
A season's pass for the canal for a 16' to 26' pleasure boat is only $50. And it's not like it's bow to stern on the canal.
There was some grumbling when that happened, but I'm sure many Thruway users don't have a clue. They just pay the tolls and keep on rolling...
Is it toll " shifting" , perhaps, but it also builds on canal infrastructure and provides a life line to folks forgotten by time.
JPS1Urban planners claim that the IHS was one of the factors that has contributed to urban sprawl. Had IHS been tolled from the beginning, the amount of sprawl may have been considerably less than what has occurred.
Any actual evidence for that claim?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
alphasYour young man's case is sad, but now we have a POTUS (product of private schools) who doesn't know who our allies are and thinks Putin is a great leader
Last time I checked the University of PA, Wharton School was a state run school. Far better educational background for managing the Economy than the last bozo in the Oval Office......with whatever cheesy degree the previous occupanthad.
ROBERT WILLISONWhat your missing on the tolls supporting the nys barge canal is that the nys thurway helped destroy the economies of many of on canal cities.
I have no doubt. I haven't made a study of the topic.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CMStPnP alphas Your young man's case is sad, but now we have a POTUS (product of private schools) who doesn't know who our allies are and thinks Putin is a great leader Last time I checked the University of PA, Wharton School was a state run school. Far better educational background for managing the Economy than the last bozo in the Oval Office......with whatever cheesy degree the previous occupanthad.
alphas Your young man's case is sad, but now we have a POTUS (product of private schools) who doesn't know who our allies are and thinks Putin is a great leader
I didn't know that Harvard Law School granted cheesy degrees, especially to the president of the "Harvard Law Review".
tree68 alphas the productivity of the average worker definitely was less than what I experienced in industry. I worked in data processing, and the message center for a number of years for the Army. For security reasons, there had to be at least two people working. And once the data processing was done, the messages logged, and any ancillary chores were completed, it usually was a matter of finding a magazine to read (or other activity). On the other hand, there were times when taking a break was a challenge. I always found it curious that anyone would be able to study production efficience in such a situation. You can only process the widgets that you're sent to process...
alphas the productivity of the average worker definitely was less than what I experienced in industry.
I worked in data processing, and the message center for a number of years for the Army. For security reasons, there had to be at least two people working. And once the data processing was done, the messages logged, and any ancillary chores were completed, it usually was a matter of finding a magazine to read (or other activity).
On the other hand, there were times when taking a break was a challenge.
I always found it curious that anyone would be able to study production efficience in such a situation. You can only process the widgets that you're sent to process...
Something I had experience with was a joint use military/civil airport. For years, the military provided Air Traffic Controllers. Normal staffing was 32 controllers, with 8 to a shift. The typical scenario was 2 controllers working the tower, while the other 6 hung out in the break room (lounge) and watched TV or played cards.
After the Cold War drawdown, ATC was turned over to a private contractor. The amount of Air Traffic remained the same. The contractor staffed the tower with 6 controllers, with 1 or 2 on a shift, depending on the amount of traffic for the time of day.
The Wharton School of Business is part of the University of Pennsylvania, which is a private Ivy League School located in Philadelphia. It has excellent undergraduate and graduate business programs. It is considered by many to be one of the top business schools in the United States. It is not part of the state system.
Pennsylvania State University (Penn State) is Pennsylvania's state supported, land grant university. Its main campus is located in State College, PA. It has many other campuses scattered throughout PA.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
CMStPnP alphas Last time I checked the University of PA, Wharton School was a state run school. Far better educational background for managing the Economy than the last bozo in the Oval Office......with whatever cheesy degree the previous occupanthad.
alphas
With Penn being a private school - you need to check your checking.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Judging by your inability to get even simple facts correct, the educational backgrounds of the current and previous four WH occupants are vastly superior to yours.
BLS53 . The contractor staffed the tower with 6 controllers, with 1 or 2 on a shift, depending on the amount of traffic for the time of day.
. The contractor staffed the tower with 6 controllers, with 1 or 2 on a shift, depending on the amount of traffic for the time of day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJ9apeo9Gs&t=28m10s
We have the same issue in Wisconsin as they do in the Northeast with Amtrak, You take a relatively fast Amtrak train South of Milwaukee and it runs fast all the way to Chicago METRA territory where it usually gets stuck behind a slow moving METRA train or they block one of the mainlines while Joe Lunchpail attempts to reverse direction of his METRA train. Why spend the money on HSR to only have a fraction of a 85 mile corridor be high speed? It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
tree68 ROBERT WILLISON What your missing on the tolls supporting the nys barge canal is that the nys thurway helped destroy the economies of many of on canal cities. I have no doubt. I haven't made a study of the topic.
ROBERT WILLISON What your missing on the tolls supporting the nys barge canal is that the nys thurway helped destroy the economies of many of on canal cities.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
CMStPnP Chicago METRA territory where it usually gets stuck behind a slow moving METRA train or they block one of the mainlines while Joe Lunchpail attempts to reverse direction of his METRA train. Why spend the money on HSR to only have a fraction of a 85 mile corridor be high speed? It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
Looks like someone got up and put on his angry pants. Joe Lunchpail indeed.
Joe Lunchpail vs. Joesph Threemartinilunch
My grandfather, whose name was Joe, called it a “dinner pail,” according to this letter written by my father, whose name also was Joe.
1976 letter to Railroad Magazine - Old Days on the CV
I was delighted to read about the Central Vermont's three Pacifics in the June Information Booth because I grew up with the CV and my father fired and ran its 230's. I was actually standing among the people lined along the old cast-iron fence on Feb. 4, 1928, when the 232 posed for the photo you published. I was then 13 years old. It was a happy day for St. Albans, Vt., because this was the first train to run on the Northern Division after three months of reconstruction from the big flood of 1927. Among the dignitaries in the three-car train was Sir Henry Thornton, president of the Canadian National.
The flood damage had sent the CV into receivership. Prior to that CN had owned two-thirds of its stock, but the Central Vermont had been run pretty much by itself under the aegis of E.C. Smith, grandson of the founder. CV engines were painted in their own livery, which had no resemblance to the Canadian National's. They bore the name Central Vermont on the side of the cab, with the engine number in larger figures on the sides and rear of the tender and in small digits on the sand dome, all lettering and numerals being white. The engines were painted a solid black, except for light gray smokeboxes and the white-rimmed wheels.
But to the dismay of onlookers, including myself, the 232 came down from the engine house and under the train shed painted - for the first time for any CV engine - in Canadian National livery. There were a gilded number on the side of the cab, a removable small number plate in white paint on the rear of the tender, no number at all on the sand dome, and the name Central Vermont in gilt enclosed in a titled rectangle on the tender. Engine and tender were now CN dark green and not black.
Obviously, CN had taken over at last. Our own railroad had fallen beneath the November rains, but was rescued by the 5000 workers whom CN had put on the job for three months. And now CN was showing us, by imposing its own livery, who was the boss. On July 29, 1929, when Central Vermont Railway property was sold at public auction, the Canadian National acquired 100 percent of the stock as the only successful bidder. The line became the Central Vermont Railway, Inc. and the Smith family was out.
So the photo you published brought back memories - those I have just related and those of my own CV job. I began working in St. Albans at age 12 as a messenger boy in the telegraph and dispatchers' office (shown in the photograph just behind the 232's smokebox). I continued working for CV through my high school years, also putting in a summer vacation from college on an extra gang, laying rail in the Green Mountains. That ended my rail career until I was appointed two years ago to the Amtrak board of directors.
There were actually four 230's, numbered 230-233 inclusive. But in the early 1920s or perhaps earlier, the 233 was in bad shape, needing a heavy overhaul. The Canadian National had a small 2-6-0, fresh from the shops, for which the CV decided to swap the 233 rather than spend the money on overhauling the Pacific. The new acquisition, the 2-6-0, was numbered 397. It was not a good swap
The CV leased five Pacifics from Canadian National and numbered them 234 through 238. They were slightly heavier than the 230-232, but the 238 was the original CV 233 back on her home rails until the arrival in 1927 of the 600-603, all 4-6-2's, enabled the company to send back the engines.
These details are vivid to me because in 1924 I used to take my father's dinner pail down to him at 6:10 a.m. when The Montrealer stopped in St. Albans. He was fireman on the train, which five leased engines handled regularly. Many a ride I had on the 230's from the enginehouse to the station as a reward for toting his dinner pail, as well as a cab ride with him from Montreal to St. Albans.
In 1945, an uncle let me run the 231 on the late night local passenger train, No. 304, from Bethel to White River Jct. Many years later, when my small sons and I were visiting St. Albans, I was permitted to run the Canadian National 6218 from the ash pit to the switch, 500 feet. The boys were amazed that I could possibly know how to run that big 4-8-4. Well, I had learned on the 230's when I was their age.
Joseph V. MacDonald
CMStPnPIt is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
Those pesky, particular Metra lines that seem to inconvenience you carry 70,000 "Joe Lunchpails" to and from work in the Loop daily. Tough luck!!
^^^^ Which is why I think the solution is eventually the Feds will need to impose eminent domain to return some rail lines to federal ownership. State or local level ownership rarely follows a management method that is in the best interest of the public traveling on rail corridors.
schlimm CMStPnP It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains. Those pesky, particular Metra lines that seem to inconvenience you carry 70,000 "Joe Lunchpails" to and from work in the Loop daily. Tough luck!!
CMStPnP It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingIt seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
That all depends on how the argument is framed and what the priority of HSR is given. I would expect that as the numbers on the Milwaukee to Chicago route on an annual basis North of 800,000 riders continues to rise and the delays by a bureaucratic METRA continue to increase as well as the track charges. The Feds will intervene at some point and tell Chicago to get their trains out of the way or lose ownership of the tracks and dispatching. Now if you take this one corridor and look at the other METRA caused delays via the other hub lines into CUS, the argument becomes stronger for METRA to step aside.
Same argument can be made in the Northeast Corridor with NJ Transit, Metro-North and others to return dispatching and rail ownership to Amtrak and return to a tenant arrangement.
Have my doubts that local state or regional ownership of National rail lines or dispatching of them will continue very much longer into the future when a HSR corridor is impacted. Only a matter of time before that bridge is crossed.
Murphy Siding schlimm CMStPnP It is kind of silly, if you can't successfully blend HSR Amtrak trains with Milk run Commuter trains. Those pesky, particular Metra lines that seem to inconvenience you carry 70,000 "Joe Lunchpails" to and from work in the Loop daily. Tough luck!! It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
Very much so. I would also be willing to bet that many riders getting on Metra at stops like Lake Forest, Deerfeild, and Glenview have far more polictial clout than a few cheeseheads looking to flee Packer land.
From talking to a couple of people I know that used to dispatch that line, Amtrak has windows to hit in Metra territory. When Amtrak fails to hit those windows, the trains fall in line with Metra's traffic. Quite frankly that is the way it should work, and most people understand that. The previous poster just has a dislike for anything Illinois, and it seems to cloud his judgement.
An "expensive model collector"
Amtrak also has to work with the MBTA--two years ago, I rode from Providence to Boston, and my train was late to the point that we left behind an MBTA train, which stopped along the way, and we simply had to creep up behind him at the stop.
Johnny
n012944From talking to a couple of people I know that used to dispatch that line, Amtrak has windows to hit in Metra territory. When Amtrak fails to hit those windows, the trains fall in line with Metra's traffic. Quite frankly that is the way it should work, and most people understand that. The previous poster just has a dislike for anything Illinois, and it seems to cloud his judgement.
+1He also has a tendency to make ridiculous claims with no factual evidence. 97-98% on time seems pretty good.
https://www.amtrak.com/hiawatha-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageVerticalRouteOverview
dehusman tree68 ROBERT WILLISON What your missing on the tolls supporting the nys barge canal is that the nys thurway helped destroy the economies of many of on canal cities. I have no doubt. I haven't made a study of the topic. I studied the canals in eastern PA. What killed them was the railroads. The canal handled 10 times the tonnage of the railroad the first year the railroad opened, within 5 years the roles reversed and the railroads were handled 10 times what the canals were hauling. This was in the 1840's.
Canal barges continued to haul fuel oil and cement into the 90's.
The last motorship belong to Erie sand and gravel. I can't remember her name, but was laidup in Erie PA until she was purchased by the state of new York and sailed to the nys yards near Schenectady for refit and return to service as a museum ship and happily motors thur the system every year.
The canal still see commercial traffic in the form of cruise ships, tugs and barges.
About 7 or 8 years ago barges of over sized towers were loaded in Schenectady and barges East Thur the nys barge canal, the federal lock near Waterford ny and East towards nyc.
The last chapter for commercial traffic had yet to be written for the nys barge canal.
CMStPnP Murphy Siding It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train. That all depends on how the argument is framed and what the priority of HSR is given. I would expect that as the numbers on the Milwaukee to Chicago route on an annual basis North of 800,000 riders continues to rise and the delays by a bureaucratic METRA continue to increase as well as the track charges. The Feds will intervene at some point and tell Chicago to get their trains out of the way or lose ownership of the tracks and dispatching. Now if you take this one corridor and look at the other METRA caused delays via the other hub lines into CUS, the argument becomes stronger for METRA to step aside. Same argument can be made in the Northeast Corridor with NJ Transit, Metro-North and others to return dispatching and rail ownership to Amtrak and return to a tenant arrangement. Have my doubts that local state or regional ownership of National rail lines or dispatching of them will continue very much longer into the future when a HSR corridor is impacted. Only a matter of time before that bridge is crossed.
Murphy Siding It seems like 70,000 commuters with a vested interest in getting to work each day might have a little more political clout than a couple hundred travelers on a HSR Amtrak train.
The ships name is the day Peckinpauh. Built in 1921 and retired in 1994. She is 259 feet long built to haul dry bulk cargos. She was the last of the canal motor freighter. Last working for erie sand and gravel on the owsego NY to Rome NY cement run. Thankfully saved from the torch.
Interestingly enough the state of new York reported that the nys barge handled slightly more than 100000 tons of freight, including stone products and wheat barged from Canada Thur the system in 2013. Not a bad number for system built in 1834.
When we are out having fun on our pleasure boats on the canal today, we still have to give way to the commercial big boys.
Of course, why select the best approach when the third best approach is always easier.......thats what really made illinois the state it is today <not>.
The "Windows" approach to running a railroad is a cheap assed simpleton approach, that most rational people would view as a band aid. Amtrak should have priority over any other train on the line being express passenger. If there is not enough sidings or line capacity to give Amtrak priority then build it as part of the HSR plan.
Agree with Moorman and the reporter in the video clip, it is the height of both lunacy and idiocy to pay tens of billions of dollars for HSR to speed up passenger trains, paying attention to every minute and then squander 10-30 minutes because some chowderhead wants to give a Commutter train priority over an express train or we are too cheap to build additional rail tunnels. Like I said before if the signalling systems and track capacity are not there then build or upgrade them.
schlimm+1 He also has a tendency to make ridiculous claims with no factual evidence. 97-98% on time seems pretty good. https://www.amtrak.com/hiawatha-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageVerticalRouteOverview
97-98% on time when using an already padded schedule. I thought you were college educated and knew something about stats gathering. Are those really good stats when there is a significant fudge factor on the timetable?
Using that same logic, why rebuild the bridge into St. Louis for higher speed. 30-45 min to cross a medium sized river is perfectly OK and besides the trains are ontime according to the schedule. You really think the riding public enjoys that duration of slow speed and doesn't notice it?
CMStPnP schlimm 97-98% on time when using an already padded schedule. I thought you were college educated and knew something about stats gathering. Are those really good stats when there is a significant fudge factor on the timetable? Using that same logic, why rebuild the bridge into St. Louis for higher speed. 30-45 min to cross a medium sized river is perfectly OK and besides the trains are ontime according to the schedule. You really think the riding public enjoys that duration of slow speed and doesn't notice it?
schlimm
Obviously you have never tried to schedule a real world - sustainable operation.
Shortest running time is not real world schedule time.
CMStPnP:
As usual, you really do not know what you are talking about. Even elementary statistics requires that you begin with accuracy. The Hiawatha service schedule is not padded. It is about the same as the best trains were on that run on both the Milwaukee and CNW - 89 minutes.
The bridge at StL is a problem.
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