Phoebe Vet...and the police do not try to prohibit photography from any place where the photographer has a right to be.
Were that only true. There are many documented cases of law enforcement (and fire department) officers trying to stop people from taking pictures where they (the photographers) were clearly well outside the area officials are trying to control.
In one incident involving the police on Long Island, the photographer was over a block away from the incident (a traffic collision).
In the fire service, we often refer to the yellow tape we use to define the edges of a scene. If you're trying to take pictures "inside the tape," you better be there by invitation. If you're outside the tape, have a ball.
A rule of thumb we use says that if the general public is allowed to be there, so is a photographer.
Curiously, sometimes the only folks such officials have an issue with are those from the media - if you're shooting on your cell phone, go for it!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
There has to be more to this than it appears on the surface.
The First Amendment does not infer a photographer's right to trespass, and the police do not try to prohibit photography from any place where the photographer has a right to be.
Some people thrive on conflict and seem to be always arguing with someone.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
So if Adelman had just gone over and bought a one way ticket, he would have been good to photograph in the restricted platform area?
How about webcams? If someone is watching a webcam that shows a station platform or other such area and something happens--and they take a screen shot on their computer and circulate--have they violated a law or writ?
The comment about a victim's right not to be photographed at a traumatic time makes perfect sense, but that seems to fall under photographer discretion when they are in public.
samfp1943FTA:[snip]"...In the months since his arrest, Adelmen has contended that DART’s policy on trespassers is in conflict with the First Amendment, and that members of its police force are not familiar enough with U.S. law and DART’s own guidelines regarding photographers' rights..."[snipped]
Does DART’s policy on trespassers have any bearing on the issue of Adelmen being arrested for failing to follow the police order to leave the site? He was not trespassing--right?
Here is some information from DART re: ticket validation.
"Two-hour passes and day passes purchased from TVMs are already time/date stamped and ready to use.
If you have a Day Pass Voucher, before boarding the train, date/time stamp your voucher at the ticket vending machine. The validator is located below the pass selection screen. Day Pass Vouchers are valid for the date they are validated through 3 a.m. the following day."
At one time employers sold employee discounted DART day, month, and annual passes without dates on them, and it was necessary to validate the ticket before using it.
Today most date and time sensitive tickets are stamped by the issuing machine and/or on a smart phone, so the need to validate a ticket is very limited.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
A question: Just what is this "validation?" My only experience with it came when my wife and I and rode from San Jose to Stockton several years ago. I saw a machine for validating tickets at the station--and I had never even heard of the process.. I bought our tickets from the man at the station, asked him about validation, and he told me I did not need to have them validated.
Johnny
Murphy Siding Am I seeing this right? The picture of a platform and sign posted by KP Harrier above is from the Los Anheles Metro, not from the DART line that is the topic of this discussion?
Am I seeing this right? The picture of a platform and sign posted by KP Harrier above is from the Los Anheles Metro, not from the DART line that is the topic of this discussion?
That is correct it is not a DART platform. You guys can go on youtube and see how DART operates if you want.
schlimm 1. Perhaps a Dallas area user of DART would know if access to platforms is controlled with a fare gate. In any case, the police objected to his taking pictures, not that he was a fare evader. 2. The heavy-handed police is reminiscent of care with a camera while traveling in Eastern Europe in the old days.
1. Perhaps a Dallas area user of DART would know if access to platforms is controlled with a fare gate. In any case, the police objected to his taking pictures, not that he was a fare evader.
2. The heavy-handed police is reminiscent of care with a camera while traveling in Eastern Europe in the old days.
It is exactly like Germany, platforms all open to public including at Union Station they have a ticket machine that validates tickets as they are issued. They have a seperate Validator I think if you buy a book of tickets in advance. Ticket has to be validated before you board the DART train or you get fined.
In what way, according to Adelmen, is DART's policy on trespassers in conflict with the First Amendment?
What does DART's policy on trespassers have to do with Adelmen being arrested for not complying with Officer Branch's order to leave the property?
Mookie I thought the DART sign was red - Metro was the big one standing sideways. Now I am confused.
I thought the DART sign was red - Metro was the big one standing sideways. Now I am confused.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
JPS1 DART, TRE, and T do not have fare gates. Moreover, I have never seen a sign on any platform re: don't go beyond here without a fare ticket. I travel to Dallas and Fort Worth several times a year for business, medical services and to attend the Dallas Symphony. I frequently use DART, TRE and T while in the Metroplex.
DART, TRE, and T do not have fare gates. Moreover, I have never seen a sign on any platform re: don't go beyond here without a fare ticket.
I travel to Dallas and Fort Worth several times a year for business, medical services and to attend the Dallas Symphony. I frequently use DART, TRE and T while in the Metroplex.
Thanks for the clarification. So at least with DART, some transit cop's desire for censorship is overturned by the 1st Amendment. The photographer was not violating a legitimate law.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
selectorVery true. Had that lesson rubbed very deeply into me in my very first encounter with the press in Calgary, AB 40 years ago. It was the local news paper.
I guess I've been lucky - only been "stabbed" by the press once....
I've gotten to know a lot of the media types in the area and get along well with them. Heck - they've been known to call me for another angle on a story.
That said, not a few fire chiefs want nothing to do with the media, which is unfortunate, as they are more often our friends than our foes. If we want to get a message out (check your smoke detectors, etc), they'll do it.
Balt - now there's a dart sign I am familiar with! DART, BART, METRO, whatever - just not something we have here - or Omaha, either. But we have a lot of SD70's, Dash 9's, GP's and even a caboose. Plus all the new locomotives running thru here.
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
CMStPnP 7j43k It's my belief that when a law enforcement officer insists that a witness making a recording must cease and move along, that that officer is tampering with evidence and should be so charged. ... They will lie their arse off to your face to get what they want or pose as someone else. Beware of that if you ever have to deal with the press. They are just concerned with getting what they want for a story or news item...
7j43k It's my belief that when a law enforcement officer insists that a witness making a recording must cease and move along, that that officer is tampering with evidence and should be so charged.
It's my belief that when a law enforcement officer insists that a witness making a recording must cease and move along, that that officer is tampering with evidence and should be so charged.
... They will lie their arse off to your face to get what they want or pose as someone else. Beware of that if you ever have to deal with the press. They are just concerned with getting what they want for a story or news item...
Very true. Had that lesson rubbed very deeply into me in my very first encounter with the press in Calgary, AB 40 years ago. It was the local news paper.
Real DART sign
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
With the red sign, the key to judging its clarity is to separate the actual meaning of the sign message from what you already believe it means. A sign should stand on its words, and not have to rely on a sort of “body language” of where the sign is located.
Yes, it is easy to understand the intent of the sign, but let a lawyer get a fee and the sign will suddenly become too vague to be of any value in limiting access to the platform. It does not state why a validated fare is required nor where some assumed limitation of position is.
It is unfortunately a requirement that all signs must contain absolute perfection as to intent and purpose or somebody will misinterpret it (unintentionally or in order to get around it for their own purposes).
It also begs the question as to whether I could purchase a ticket to get on the platform in compliance with the sign and take photos to my heart's content, yet never get on a train, eventually requesting a refund of the purchase price because I didn't actually ride on a train. (I have heard of people buying a 1st class airline ticket to get access to freebee's in the VIP lounge, then intentionally miss the flight and demand a full refund.)
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
One seldom sees such convoluted thinking outside of the political environment.
What is so hard to understand? Only ticketed passengers are allowed past that sign. It is even stated in two languages.
K. P. Harrier Euclid (10-7): Euclid Regarding the red sign saying, “Proof of validated fare required.” Required for what? Is proof of validated fare required to be on the platform, or is it required to board the train? In the lower of my two photos, ticketing machines are present (lower left). Actually on site, the insinuation is that unless one has a valid fare the red sign must not be passed. Best, K.P.
Euclid (10-7):
Euclid Regarding the red sign saying, “Proof of validated fare required.” Required for what? Is proof of validated fare required to be on the platform, or is it required to board the train?
Regarding the red sign saying, “Proof of validated fare required.” Required for what? Is proof of validated fare required to be on the platform, or is it required to board the train?
In the lower of my two photos, ticketing machines are present (lower left). Actually on site, the insinuation is that unless one has a valid fare the red sign must not be passed.
Best,
K.P.
Now that you mention it, I can see that as a third interpretation of the sign whereby the position of the sign is telling you where not to be. If that is what it means; or, if it means that you can't be anywhere on the platform without a fare, the point is not about evading the fare. Instead it is about not being on the platform without a certain purpose.
If that is the meaning, then does a person have a right to be there to take photos if they don't have a fare? It doesn't seem like they would have that right. I suppose one could say that because this is a public sector operation, as opposed to a private railroad company, it cannot be private property. But public operations do have the right to prevent access to certain areas.
If the red sign has nothing to do with the access to the platform, then I don't think it has anything to do with being on the platform to take photos.
I travel to Dallas and Fort Worth several times a year for business and medical services. I frequently use DART, TRE and T while in the Metroplex.
Here in Charlotte the fare required signs are accompanied by a yellow perimiter line on the pavement. The platform provides an area where police and fare inspectors can check for fare evaders without delaying a crowded train and provides a safe area where passengers can be protected from pan handlers and small time criminals. The ticket machines are outside the lines.
Thats a little harsh for me. Officers are responsible for several items at once. Your safety, Integrity of the Crime Scene (if this was a crime scene) which you might be walking all over, the Patient....who I think does deserve some privacy, the first responders.......who need to operate unobstructed.
BTW, I have had the extreme pain of dealing with reporters from the New York Times, Time Magazine, Newsweek, etc. They will lie their arse off to your face to get what they want or pose as someone else. Beware of that if you ever have to deal with the press. They are just concerned with getting what they want for a story or news item. Being honest or hurting your feelings is not a priority if they have been told NO once already.
Vague signs? One of my favorite gags is to go to the mall, over the mall map, tape a little sign that says "You Are Here".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Good point. A vaguely worded sign is a meaningless sign.
In most of my working life, I worked with the general public. I always accepted the fact that there would be times that the job would be difficult. But I always tried to make sure I wasn't making the job any harder than it had to be, and I always tried to give the general public a bit of leeway --- breathing space, if you will. Maybe I don't know enough about the situation, but it seems like a stupid dog fight for territory and dominance: the kind of thing that our four footed friends resolve by peeing on a tree or a fence.
Tom
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