schlimmBTW, there is a natural gas pipline (not local) about a block from my home. But it is hardly in the same league as oil pipelines, which seem to leak fairly often.
Pipeline incidents investigated by the NTSB
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/pipeline.aspx
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
A classic case of delayed NIMBYism took place in the Pittsburgh, PA area a number of years ago. The Allegheny County Airport simply could not be expanded to handle the then new jet aircraft; private property had been developed all around the airport.
So the powers that be found undeveloped space 45 minutes west of downtown for what is now Greater Pittsburgh International Airport. This space was really too hilly for an airport but there just isn't any other kind around Pittsburgh. It's chief advantage was that there were only a very few homes in the area to be bothered by noise.
By the time the airport opened, there were residential developments close by with homes being sold because of the easy access to the airport. And about a year later those same home buyers started complaining about the noise.
ChuckAllen, TX
The folks planning Denver International did it right. Airport property is 52 square miles. No nimbys going to be building close to the airport for some time.
Norm
dakotafred zardoz Phoebe Vet Americans are very selfish. "The heck with you; I've got mine." Propose anything anywhere and watch the people rise up against it. They don't want housing developments, bigger roads, cell phone towers, shopping centers, factories, recreational facilities, Apartment buildings, ANYTHING that people drive to, etc. And yet those hypocrites have no problem USING all of the conveniences and products that are provided by those facilities. Their imaginations being too small to get their arms around the big picture. A case in point: the Dakota Access Pipeline, stalled by the Standing Rock Sioux on the most bogus of grounds. In a couple of months, these same people will be crying for #2 diesel (heating) oil and propane, another oil product, to be provided by somebody else. The main problem is that the country filled up, by our standards, a long time ago; they "closed the frontier." Now you can't turn around without "impacting" somebody else. This is how decay sets in, as it has with us.
zardoz Phoebe Vet Americans are very selfish. "The heck with you; I've got mine." Propose anything anywhere and watch the people rise up against it. They don't want housing developments, bigger roads, cell phone towers, shopping centers, factories, recreational facilities, Apartment buildings, ANYTHING that people drive to, etc. And yet those hypocrites have no problem USING all of the conveniences and products that are provided by those facilities.
Phoebe Vet Americans are very selfish. "The heck with you; I've got mine." Propose anything anywhere and watch the people rise up against it. They don't want housing developments, bigger roads, cell phone towers, shopping centers, factories, recreational facilities, Apartment buildings, ANYTHING that people drive to, etc.
Americans are very selfish. "The heck with you; I've got mine."
Propose anything anywhere and watch the people rise up against it.
They don't want housing developments, bigger roads, cell phone towers, shopping centers, factories, recreational facilities, Apartment buildings, ANYTHING that people drive to, etc.
And yet those hypocrites have no problem USING all of the conveniences and products that are provided by those facilities.
Their imaginations being too small to get their arms around the big picture. A case in point: the Dakota Access Pipeline, stalled by the Standing Rock Sioux on the most bogus of grounds.
In a couple of months, these same people will be crying for #2 diesel (heating) oil and propane, another oil product, to be provided by somebody else.
The main problem is that the country filled up, by our standards, a long time ago; they "closed the frontier." Now you can't turn around without "impacting" somebody else.
This is how decay sets in, as it has with us.
schlimm Do you live in that office (do you own it?)? I did say your yard or next door, which strongly implies your home.
Do you live in that office (do you own it?)? I did say your yard or next door, which strongly implies your home.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
It's interesting to observe that to many posters here when it comes to NIMBYism the ordinary man is always a dolt, but when it comes to firearms the ordinary man is wise and capable.
NKP guy It's interesting to observe that to many posters here when it comes to NIMBYism the ordinary man is always a dolt, but when it comes to firearms the ordinary man is wise and capable.
Let's not go there again. If we do, this thread is likely to be locked too.
schlimmBut it is hardly in the same league as oil pipelines, which seem to leak fairly often.
Do they leak more often, or is it just more media coverage when they do? There have been some pretty spectacular NG leaks.
Those who would like to see crude and coal cease to be energy sources tend to favor natural gas. So of course it is in their best interests to "promote" issues with oil.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Johnny
tree68 Those who would like to see crude and coal cease to be energy sources tend to favor natural gas. So of course it is in their best interests to "promote" issues with oil.
Guy up the road from me has a large farm with many acres of woods. A pipeline is being shoved through his property by means of eminent domain, necessitating removal of many trees.
He has no issue with oil or gas. He has no problems with pipelines. Hell, he doesn't even have an issue with traditional eminent domain. He has an issue with a pipeline benefiting only private parties (pipeline is for exporting) being shoved under his property against his will. His family spent a lot of money fighting it, but the courts are already decided (and perhaps stacked).
I know, Kelo v. City of New London set the bar, but still...
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
schlimm And how would you like a pipeline running through your yard or next door?
And how would you like a pipeline running through your yard or next door?
dakotafred schlimm And how would you like a pipeline running through your yard or next door? Tell me, do, how you would build an 1100-mile pipeline without passing "next door" to somebody. In another post, you mention the "not local" NG pipeline passing next door to you. It's delivering NG to somebody. Would you begrudge them, while cheerfully consuming the natural gas whose pipeline runs next door to somebody else?
I said the gas pipeline was not local (I believe regional or long distance). Obviously there is also a local service pipeline running under the street, since I live in a metro area. I was referring to a large capacity, long distance crude oil pipeline, like the one in the title article. I have no objection to a pipeline for gas. Comprehend??
And BTW, you never answered the question.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
dakotafred tree68 Those who would like to see crude and coal cease to be energy sources tend to favor natural gas. So of course it is in their best interests to "promote" issues with oil. Natural gas being next on the hit list. Never giving a thought to what they would be doing for transportation, heat, cooling and light if it weren't for the exertions of the bad old fossil-fuel people.
Utter nonsense once again. Some people simply accept and agree with science, while you prefer faith in your ideology (or another word, beginning with an i and ending in y).
Norm48327 The folks planning Denver International did it right. Airport property is 52 square miles. No nimbys going to be building close to the airport for some time.
mudchicken Norm48327 The folks planning Denver International did it right. Airport property is 52 square miles. No nimbys going to be building close to the airport for some time. If only that were true. Build an airport, the stupid zones are sure to follow. (Ed Quillen 1950-2012)
If only that were true. Build an airport, the stupid zones are sure to follow. (Ed Quillen 1950-2012)
I'm not a local there, but I believe that somebody already tried (and failed) to get an apartment complex started near that new Denver airport. While I'm generally on board with people developing their property in whatever responsible way they choose, it wouldn't be hard to picture the noise complaints coming from the new tenants, and better that it did not go through.
My favorite here in California is where people bought new homes under the flight path to long-estabished El Toro Marine Corps Air Station, then protested against the jet noise! Because of the situation, their homes were probably cheaper in the first place, but you can bet that such an factor never came up in the complaints.
Shadow the Cats owner I live in the Central IL Natural gas Storage area. During the summer the local gas company is pumping it into the underground storage areas. During the winter they pump it out. They store an estimated 25 Trillion cubic feet of pressurized natural gas in a 15 square mile area in this area. Those that have lived here long enough say if it all went boom we would be the first town on the moon.
I live in the Central IL Natural gas Storage area. During the summer the local gas company is pumping it into the underground storage areas. During the winter they pump it out. They store an estimated 25 Trillion cubic feet of pressurized natural gas in a 15 square mile area in this area. Those that have lived here long enough say if it all went boom we would be the first town on the moon.
See link@ http://www.geotimes.org/oct01/feature_kansas.html
FTL: [snipped] "...The Yaggy field could supply about 150 MMcf of gas per day. At the time of the crisis, Yaggy had 62 active gas storage jugs. The field could hold 3.5 billion cubic feet (Bcf) of gas at pressures of about 600 pounds per square inch (psi). The S-1 jug held about 60 million cubic feet (MMcf) of gas.."[snipped]
We are well aware of that one. Trouble is the local gas company 20 years ago upped the pressures they store the freaking stuff from 600 to over 1500 PSI. They did it without public comment and thru claims of infrasturcture improvements. We all knew something was up when the flare burn offs where installed to handle the pressure overloads. On a dark night from my house 10 miles away I can see those things going off in the summer.
samfp1943 Shadow the Cats owner I live in the Central IL Natural gas Storage area. During the summer the local gas company is pumping it into the underground storage areas. During the winter they pump it out. They store an estimated 25 Trillion cubic feet of pressurized natural gas in a 15 square mile area in this area. Those that have lived here long enough say if it all went boom we would be the first town on the moon. At the risk of upsetting you and damaging your feeling of security.. I would suggest a Google Search " Natural Gas Explosion/Hutchinson,Ks" such a search did unearth some links to the tale of underground storage facilities (Yaggy) in the Hutchinson area on Jan.17,2001 . It was originally a 'salt dome'. First conveted to propane storage and later to NG storage . See link@ http://www.geotimes.org/oct01/feature_kansas.html FTL: [snipped] "...The Yaggy field could supply about 150 MMcf of gas per day. At the time of the crisis, Yaggy had 62 active gas storage jugs. The field could hold 3.5 billion cubic feet (Bcf) of gas at pressures of about 600 pounds per square inch (psi). The S-1 jug held about 60 million cubic feet (MMcf) of gas.."[snipped]
At the risk of upsetting you and damaging your feeling of security.. I would suggest a Google Search " Natural Gas Explosion/Hutchinson,Ks" such a search did unearth some links to the tale of underground storage facilities (Yaggy) in the Hutchinson area on Jan.17,2001 . It was originally a 'salt dome'. First conveted to propane storage and later to NG storage .
There were 3 situations in the Kansas gas storage field that may or may not be present in your Illinois fields. First, the gas was stored in salt caverns which could empty much faster than the typical gas storage in depleted gas fields. Secondly, modern storage wells have their casing cemented outside the pipe all the way to the surface. This would have prevented the Kansas casing gas leak from traveling up the outside of the casing to where it found a lateral porosity zone. Thirdly, gas storage companies are usually required to show that all the nearby wells are properly plugged, or the gas companies replug them. Although the usual protection distance is about 2 miles beyond the storage field, and the Kansas gas leak traveled a few miles further.
MidlandMikeThere were 3 situations in the Kansas gas storage field that may or may not be present in your Illinois fields. First, the gas was stored in salt caverns which could empty much faster than the typical gas storage in depleted gas fields.
In Illinois, 14 storage fields are in aquifers, 12 in depleted gas/oil fields.
Slow, contaminating leaks, as in CA, are a more likely problem with gas than catastrophic explosions.
schlimm In Illinois, 14 storage fields are in aquifers, 12 in depleted gas/oil fields.
Storage fields in "aquifers" is very ominous sounding. This piqued my interest, and I will have to research it after I get some of my fall projects done.
It is one of three classifications shown on various sites, some industry, some government. I would assume they mean former aquifers.
schlimm I would assume they mean former aquifers.
I'm sure it's a 'former aquifer' in the sense that high-pressure gas would displace some of the water (laterally and down) in the porous formation between two impervious layers that constituted the water-bearing stratum. The discussion of plugs and so forth indicates that some hydrostatic equilibrium or water intrusion is tolerable (in other words, the presence of water in the aquifer is no bar to its use for storage) but we can assume that with higher pressure, any old wells or well bores that constitute a weak point may result in some form of gas blowing.
Very little likelihood of oxygen intrusion into those formations, and almost guaranteed quench of any ignition that got started (which I suspect is one reason "aquifers" are attractive gas storage fields) even if it did. Gas blows anywhere not in a confined space, with mixing within critical explosion limits (which are not that extreme for most natural gas compositions) and a prompt relatively point ignition source would be needed for an actual explosion; the principal horror sources are flame or critical 'detonation' fronts in sewers, or basements where there is a large blow as in Hutchison from old wells or other faulting, and in either case the actual danger likely to result for the region, even if there is a major p-wave event like that of 1811 (which resulted in severe pressure-wave displacement of all the strata comprising aquifers, and perhaps a great multiplicity of subsequent faulting to the surface that pressure would keep briefly open before gravity settling compacted the lifted material) is more of surface burning, and perhaps anoxia for disseminated leaks for people in 'the wrong place at the wrong time'. There is CERTAINLY no possibility that a large section will blow off at "1500psi" (it would get only a few feet before the pressure had all vented and the gas started to disseminate) or that there would be a subterranean ignition of kilotons of methane in the equivalent of prompt criticality (there is no combination of carburetion, freedom from retardation, and timed ignition that would give you coordinated detonation at all), or that you would get repeated house explosions or even the kind of multiple fires that were the principal cause of disaster at San Fran in 1906 from the surface releases (they are not like breakage of open-lumen pipes in a distributed gas system).
RME There is CERTAINLY no possibility that a large section will blow off at "1500psi" (it would get only a few feet before the pressure had all vented and the gas started to disseminate)
So much for Shadow Cat's uninformed fears.
Shadow the Cats ownerOurs are in a freaking aquifer that does connect with a river in the area that has a Cement plug that is supposed to hold it from breaking thru. That is why this area is on pins and needles with the PSI so freaking high combined with us being in the New Madrid Fault zone and the area also being Undermined all over the place for its coal reserves from the 1800's guess what we are scared to death when New Madrid does go off that about 15 square miles of prime land are going to be leaving earth at escape velocity.
What is the name of the gas storage field or its location?
schlimm It is one of three classifications shown on various sites, some industry, some government. I would assume they mean former aquifers.
When I heard aquifers, I thought potable water supply. However, in researching an early (1950s) study of Illinois gas storage fields, they use aquifer in the most general sense-- any water baring formation. The formations were too deep to have water quality suitable for drinking water. They also had good cap rock and confining structure. In Michigan all our gas storage fields are nominally in depleted gas fields, although there were a couple of LPG storage operations in salt caverns.
Excerpt from NY Times, Dec. 4
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/04/us/federal-officials-to-explore-different-route-for-dakota-pipeline.html?_r=0
The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe won a major victory on Sunday in its battle to block an oil pipeline being built near its reservation when the Department of the Army announced that it would not allow the pipeline to be drilled under a dammed section of the Missouri River...
Though the Army’s decision calls for an environmental study of alternative routes, the Trump administration could ultimately decide to allow the original, contested route. Representatives for Mr. Trump’s transition team did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Mr. Trump owns stock in the company building the pipeline, Energy Transfer Partners, but he has said that his support has nothing to do with his investment.
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