tdmidgetWould you like the nuclear power industry to adopt your attitude?
I would opine that such an attitude is common pretty much everywhere in industry. You plan for the best, and expect the worst. If the worst happens, you figure out why and plan for it not to happen again.
Remember that a software "bug" - which term actually came from an insect in a relay of a first gen computer - is analogous to a monkey wrench in machinery.
Stuff happens. As the old saying goes - "The best laid plans of mice and men."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tdmidget caldreamer I spent 45 years working in the information technology industy. A number of which were in opeations and networking. We knew Murphy TOO well. When things were going smoothly and we were in normal routine, we would feel the middle of our backs for the knife that Murphy was about to stick in, AND HE DID. I had many disasterous shifts during my tenure in the industry. There is nothing you can do, but learn from them and try to minimize the frequency and effects of them by putting mitigation plans into your normal operating procedures. Would you like the nuclear power industry to adopt your attitude?
caldreamer I spent 45 years working in the information technology industy. A number of which were in opeations and networking. We knew Murphy TOO well. When things were going smoothly and we were in normal routine, we would feel the middle of our backs for the knife that Murphy was about to stick in, AND HE DID. I had many disasterous shifts during my tenure in the industry. There is nothing you can do, but learn from them and try to minimize the frequency and effects of them by putting mitigation plans into your normal operating procedures.
I spent 45 years working in the information technology industy. A number of which were in opeations and networking. We knew Murphy TOO well. When things were going smoothly and we were in normal routine, we would feel the middle of our backs for the knife that Murphy was about to stick in, AND HE DID. I had many disasterous shifts during my tenure in the industry. There is nothing you can do, but learn from them and try to minimize the frequency and effects of them by putting mitigation plans into your normal operating procedures.
Would you like the nuclear power industry to adopt your attitude?
I presume Three Mile Island and Chernobyl were 'Murphy' moments in the nuclear power industry. Did the industry learn from those events?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD You can have 1000% more T&E personnel - and there is NO GUARANTEE that they will have adequate rest when called to work in a 24 hour work enviornment. Rest is a personal responsibility. ............
You can have 1000% more T&E personnel - and there is NO GUARANTEE that they will have adequate rest when called to work in a 24 hour work enviornment. Rest is a personal responsibility.
............
While indeed rest should be a personal responsibility, in practice it should also be shared by the carrier. Murphy will always be present on the railroad when trying to predict the next call to duty, and hence getting rest in preparation can be a crapshoot. That is more or less out of the control of both crews and the railroad.
What is under the railroad's control, though, is allowing a crew to decline an unexpected call due to pre-existing fatigue without fear of penalty or repercussions. As I understand it, in today's environment the centralized crew calling and tight boards mean a crew is virtually forced to accept the call even if unfit.
Starting fatigued is further exacerbated by extended crew districts, where the crews have to remain alert for 10-12 hours instead of 5-6 hours.
John
caldreamerWe knew Murphy TOO well.
Murphy was an optimist.
And we can't forget Gumperson's Law. "If anything can go wrong, it will, and at the worst possible time.
Tankers: Don't get me started when it comes to tankers and fire trucks. Some people want to call them tenders, because folks on the left coast call firefighting airplanes "tankers..."
tree68 wrote[ in part] the following post 3 hours ago:
tdmidget ...although a night off just screws up your sleep routine...
"...Having worked shift work for a while, I concur. One problem is that you (that's the "editorial" you, not anyone specifically) try to live a "normal" schedule on your days off, instead of keeping your "night" schedule..."
Further, tree 68 wrote:"...Researchers have found that people who have all time cues removed from their lives tend to create their own schedules - eat when they're hungry (instead of breakfast at 7, etc), sleep when they're tired, etc. As I recall, some folks put themselves on a longer day - say, 28 hours instead of 24..."
Having retired from Trucking and Transportation Safety; there has been much research done into the human body and its sleep/awake cycling [or Body Clock] known as 'Circadian Rythem'. This natural rythem exists in humans and in plants. Before I retired a very big problem for truck drivers was a function of sleep apnea that was being called back then, 'micro naps'. Apparently, caused by the work cycle interrupting the cycle of the individual's 'normal 'circadian rythem. a level of sleep deprivation in an individual would cause the autonomic response of a level of self-protection that would trigger the process of a micro nap. Happening sometimes while an individual was operating a machine or vehicle. The resultant lack of control could lead to missing signals, failure to staay on a roadway, or running into stopped traffic while suffering from a micro nap of seconds or times that can be much longer, ending in death, or collisions(?).
Things become known as what people call them. The definitions adapt. I can live with "cargo" for train-borne freight. It seems like I have also heard it called "lading" as a noun. But people are more familiar with cargo.
The worst transformation is "tanker" substituted for tank car. I kind of like the abovementioned "carts" referring to railroad rolling stock. In a brickyard, the narrow gage cars that carried bricks were called "carts." So a tank car would be a "tanker cart" or maybe just "oil cart."
{Wiki] "The word cargo refers in particular to goods or produce being conveyed – generally for commercial gain – by ship, boat, or aircraft, although the term is now often extended to cover all types of freight, including that carried by train, van, truck, or intermodal container."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Correct. "Cargo" is a marine term. A ship carries a "cargo". It might be one shipment or many and it might be one commodity or many but the aggregate is the "cargo".
One thing that bothers me is the use of "cargo" instead of "freight". "Cargo cars". I thought "freight train" was an established discription well known by the general population. Apparently, it's not anymore.
It's really too early to start discussing what the 'results' from this accident will actually be -- aside from procedural ones. There are a number of ways to approach the subject from a proper 'systems' perspective; here is one:
I'd like to suggest that those with an interest in the general subject of safety analysis who have not read Nancy Leveson's book "Engineering a Safer World" download a copy here, free courtesy of MIT. Then go over to the Volpe Center Web site and download a working copy of their SafetyHAT tool, which optimizes Leveson's methodology for transportation applications (requires courtesy registration).
This would provide a common framework for assessing and discussing the various factors that are likely to be involved here, and incorporate new information intelligibly when it comes to our attention.
And yes regular schedules would be a challenge, but I suspect that most trains could run on a fixed schedule (as do passenger and commuter trains). The exceptions would be a small percentage of trains. Right now crews get insufficient sleep between work. I just wonder why regular schedules haven't been legislated after these accidents.
tdmidget...although a night off just screws up your sleep routine...
Having worked shift work for a while, I concur. One problem is that you (that's the "editorial" you, not anyone specifically) try to live a "normal" schedule on your days off, instead of keeping your "night" schedule.
Which makes me wonder - railroaders who have managed to pull a fairly regular local job notwithstanding - are there some railroaders who seem to adapt to the irregular schedules we're discussing better than others? What's their secret?
I would wonder if "going with the flow" is better that trying to live a "normal" life and making the railroad's requirements fit in. Perhaps that's a key to the problem?
Researchers have found that people who have all time cues removed from their lives tend to create their own schedules - eat when they're hungry (instead of breakfast at 7, etc), sleep when they're tired, etc. As I recall, some folks put themselves on a longer day - say, 28 hours instead of 24.
Bear in mind that I'm not defending irregular schedules - but as discussions have noted, putting a railroad on a truly regular schedule has some significant challenges.
Pedro, you are on the right idea but asking the wrong question. What will be the lesson is unknown and there may not even be one.
The question is " what should be learned?". I work primarily in the nuclear power business and, like the aviation industry, one time is enough. Over the past several years we have had a number of fatal accidents blamed on crews being asleep or fatigue. Even the Amtrak 188 crash is possibly fatigue or lack of sleep. The "memory loss" may well be caused by dozing off.
In the nuclear field one incident such as this, would cause a wave, not a ripple throughout the industry. This is what we call "operating experience". Each and every plant and worker, regardless of their level, is expected to learn from these experiences. We have not had accidents due to fatigue but other industries have and therefore we have rules on hours worked. Even though most of my work involves the turbo generator system rather than the RCA ( radiation controlled area), when working 12 hour shifts, I must take off at least every 13 days. Even working at night, I must do so, although a night off just screws up your sleep routine. In the nuclear field an ounce of prevention is worth all the cure in the world and I suspect that aviation is similar. There is no excuse for working employees to the point of dangerous fatigue year after year in the face of repetitive evidence of the consequences and blaming accidents on "sleep disorders" and lack of PTC.
CAZEPHYROne of the trains must have run at least one red signal and ignored one yellow and maybe a flashing yellow. It will be interesting to know what train was running the main as a reverse direction and why they ended up creating a head on disasterous wreck.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
DeggestyShopping carts? That is, to me, in the same vein as calling each rail of the two rails that are part of one track a "track"--pure ignorance.
Mariah is cute as a button, and claims among other things to be 'fluent in Spanglish', but Lord help us, she doesn't seem to know much about railroadin'. Perhaps Brother Euclid could take her under his wing and enlighten her?
Shopping carts? That is, to me, in the same vein as calling each rail of the two rails that are part of one track a "track"--pure ignorance.
It is truly sad that the general public (news "reporters" included) knows very little of advances that have been made in railroading during the past fifty years. We can only grimace as we read and hear the reports of events that take place.
Johnny
CAZEPHYR caldreamer One answer to the fatigue factor is for the railroads to hire enough personnel, so that ALL crew members get enough sleep and time off. I know this WILL NEVER happen, but that and PTC should help cut down or eliminate these kinds of accidents. One of the trains must have run at least one red signal and ignored one yellow and maybe a flashing yellow. It will be interesting to know what train was running the main as a reverse direction and why they ended up creating a head on disasterous wreck. The story reads a lot of box cars were derailed, but that is strange since there were no box cars on either train from the pictures on the story. RR
caldreamer One answer to the fatigue factor is for the railroads to hire enough personnel, so that ALL crew members get enough sleep and time off. I know this WILL NEVER happen, but that and PTC should help cut down or eliminate these kinds of accidents.
One answer to the fatigue factor is for the railroads to hire enough personnel, so that ALL crew members get enough sleep and time off. I know this WILL NEVER happen, but that and PTC should help cut down or eliminate these kinds of accidents.
One of the trains must have run at least one red signal and ignored one yellow and maybe a flashing yellow. It will be interesting to know what train was running the main as a reverse direction and why they ended up creating a head on disasterous wreck. The story reads a lot of box cars were derailed, but that is strange since there were no box cars on either train from the pictures on the story.
RR
One story read that there were 'carts' all over the ground.
BaltACD You can have 1000% more T&E personnel - and there is NO GUARANTEE that they will have adequate rest when called to work in a 24 hour work enviornment. Rest is a personal responsibility. High volume lines do not operate the same numbers of trains from day to day and they do not necessarily operate the same number of trains in each direction on a line. Terminal facilities are not sized to hold traffic - they are sized to run traffic. Carriers have tried and continue to try virtually any and all operating strategies in order to have an orderly and sustained movement of traffic, but Murphy's Law applies to railroading - in spades; and Murphy's happenings fouls the best laid plans of the operating and engineering departments. Remember, there is only 24 hours of track time a day - and everyone wants more than their share.
You can have 1000% more T&E personnel - and there is NO GUARANTEE that they will have adequate rest when called to work in a 24 hour work enviornment. Rest is a personal responsibility. High volume lines do not operate the same numbers of trains from day to day and they do not necessarily operate the same number of trains in each direction on a line. Terminal facilities are not sized to hold traffic - they are sized to run traffic. Carriers have tried and continue to try virtually any and all operating strategies in order to have an orderly and sustained movement of traffic, but Murphy's Law applies to railroading - in spades; and Murphy's happenings fouls the best laid plans of the operating and engineering departments. Remember, there is only 24 hours of track time a day - and everyone wants more than their share.
Why even bother to attempt improvements? There's always an insurmountable problem.
BaltACDCarriers have tried and continue to try virtually any and all operating strategies in order to have an orderly and sustained movement of traffic, but Murphy's Law applies to railroading - in spades; and Murphy's happenings fouls the best laid plans of the operating and engineering departments.
If one wants to look beyond railroading, consider the chaos engendered by severe weather around any of the major airline hubs (and many times over for the NYC metroplex). The ripples move swiftly across the country.
zugmann BaltACD And just how do you create 'regularly scheduled work times' on lines with high volumes of traffic and erratic operations due to all the 'routine' operational impediments - impediments that can make a 3 hour run into a 15 hour 'derailment in motion' that affects not only the train with the individualized troubles - but every other train on the sub-division for various periods of delay. How many feet of train can a computer inspect personally on the ground at 0 dark 30 - and fix the problems that are found, or report the problems are beyond their technical or equipment abilities and 'professional' assistance is needed. If the railroads aren't going to do it, then don't be surprised when the gov't does it for them. It will be the PTC mandate all over again.
BaltACD And just how do you create 'regularly scheduled work times' on lines with high volumes of traffic and erratic operations due to all the 'routine' operational impediments - impediments that can make a 3 hour run into a 15 hour 'derailment in motion' that affects not only the train with the individualized troubles - but every other train on the sub-division for various periods of delay. How many feet of train can a computer inspect personally on the ground at 0 dark 30 - and fix the problems that are found, or report the problems are beyond their technical or equipment abilities and 'professional' assistance is needed.
If the railroads aren't going to do it, then don't be surprised when the gov't does it for them. It will be the PTC mandate all over again.
This is a lesson the operating brotherhoods might also take to heart, since historically they have resisted almost all changes that would result in fewer trips and smaller paychecks.
Agree. It's going to be hard to do and you can't think in the usual ways about this kind of stuff and get anywhere. It's gonna take some inovative thinking and lots and lots of negotiation and compromise. Hard work, but to not tackle it is just laziness.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BaltACDAnd just how do you create 'regularly scheduled work times' on lines with high volumes of traffic and erratic operations due to all the 'routine' operational impediments - impediments that can make a 3 hour run into a 15 hour 'derailment in motion' that affects not only the train with the individualized troubles - but every other train on the sub-division for various periods of delay. How many feet of train can a computer inspect personally on the ground at 0 dark 30 - and fix the problems that are found, or report the problems are beyond their technical or equipment abilities and 'professional' assistance is needed.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
petitnj The railroads should learn the lesson that random sleep and work times bring on fatugue. That collision was caused when one of the crews fell asleep. PTC would prevent it, but so would regularly scheduled work times. Once PTC is fully implemented, the need for a train crew is gone and all the unions will loose their members to a computer.
The railroads should learn the lesson that random sleep and work times bring on fatugue. That collision was caused when one of the crews fell asleep. PTC would prevent it, but so would regularly scheduled work times. Once PTC is fully implemented, the need for a train crew is gone and all the unions will loose their members to a computer.
And just how do you create 'regularly scheduled work times' on lines with high volumes of traffic and erratic operations due to all the 'routine' operational impediments - impediments that can make a 3 hour run into a 15 hour 'derailment in motion' that affects not only the train with the individualized troubles - but every other train on the sub-division for various periods of delay. How many feet of train can a computer inspect personally on the ground at 0 dark 30 - and fix the problems that are found, or report the problems are beyond their technical or equipment abilities and 'professional' assistance is needed.
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