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What will be the lessons from Texas Panhadle collision?

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Wednesday, July 6, 2016 3:17 PM

Locomotive cabs abd seat are too comfy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKtFIgmoqoI

 

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Wednesday, July 6, 2016 9:38 AM

With what the Fines are for speeding are for CDL holders take what they are for a normal license holder multiply them by 5 then your close.  Then throw in if you get more than 3 tickets for speeding your getting a 6 month unpaid vacation and traffic school or Court Supervison is not an option at all for CDL holders per FMCSA regulations.  Then throw in when pulled over your entire truck is open for an inspection where if they want they can and will Fine you for it.  

Anymore it is not about Safety on the road for the DOT for the states it is all about Revenue for them.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, July 6, 2016 9:16 AM

Shadow the Cats owner
You think people are going to risk that.

I think they do, perhaps in comparatively large numbers.  I also think, not to pillory any particular nationality, that the problem may be more pronounced since NAFTA.  But I can't really prove anything, other than to note that post-accident whiz-quiz statistics might be enlightening ... for those who 'speed' and subsequently use insufficient skill or judgment.  There sure wasn't much of a systematic effort to 'predictively' detect it in the past, on the part of the Feds, the insurers, or anyone else in a position to marshal the resources and compulsion/"incentives" to achieve broad default enforcement... is there now a system of random drug tests at frequent intervals imposed on all CDL drivers?  Last I looked there was considerable resistance (to put it mildly) to implementing that in the railroad industry.

Out of curiosity, what did he say about using Georgia overdrive, especially on sections that have frequent, but not alarmingly posted, downgrades?

 

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Wednesday, July 6, 2016 8:35 AM

I have the day off and I showed this one to him.  His father was an OTR driver as was he for a few years.  Here is the punishment if you test hot from the FMCSA now an Automatic 2 Year Suspension of your CDL and 50K dollar fine.  You think people are going to risk that.  

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Posted by Norm48327 on Wednesday, July 6, 2016 7:41 AM

blue streak 1

There has been much dicussion about the role of the east bound DPU continuing to push.  As this poster understand and the NTSB will have to determine.  If the collision caused the radio link to quit before any emergency brake application started the DPU would have still pushed until the 7 - 10 second emergency brake delay reached the DPU. 

Also what is time amount for a DPU unit to go to idle ? There is certainly some relays to activate.  1-3 seconds ?

Any comments ?

 

Has it been established as fact there was a DPU on the eastbound train? If so, I missed that.

Norm


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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, July 6, 2016 6:55 AM

blue streak 1

There has been much dicussion about the role of the east bound DPU continuing to push.  As this poster understand and the NTSB will have to determine.  If the collision caused the radio link to quit before any emergency brake application started the DPU would have still pushed until the 7 - 10 second emergency brake delay reached the DPU. 

Also what is time amount for a DPU unit to go to idle ? There is certainly some relays to activate.  1-3 seconds ?

Any comments ?

 

What is the basis for expecting the DPU had continued to push?  If the brakes were not applied prior to impact, they would have gone into Emergency at the moment of impact.  What the video shows a few seconds after impact is what I would expect in terms of train speed, if impact speed was 67 mph as someone said. 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, July 6, 2016 6:08 AM

There has been much dicussion about the role of the east bound DPU continuing to push.  As this poster understand and the NTSB will have to determine.  If the collision caused the radio link to quit before any emergency brake application started the DPU would have still pushed until the 7 - 10 second emergency brake delay reached the DPU. 

Also what is time amount for a DPU unit to go to idle ? There is certainly some relays to activate.  1-3 seconds ?

Any comments ?

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Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 10:27 PM

It sounds like (my hearing muy malo) Dudley says "Georgia Overdrive" in the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-kUyV76X-g

But the point is the truck drivers were (are?) taking drugs to stay awake.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 8:24 PM

That's no damn fair, and you know it!  Sesky was a hero -- bananas and perhaps lack of initial judgment aside, he did intentionally sacrifice himself making sure no one else got wiped out.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 8:09 PM

SALfan

 

 
Overmod
 
greyhounds
I got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive

 

Does he mean Georgia overdrive?  Yikes if so!  We know from Cranberry Grade and other places what happens when crews try Georgia dynamic.  He won't have sleep-apnea worries if he does too much driving with that engaged...

 

 

 

If he uses the Georgia overdrive on a steep enough grade, the terror will keep him awake for a week . . . . if he lives.

 

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 8:05 PM

Overmod
 
greyhounds
I got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive

 

Does he mean Georgia overdrive?  Yikes if so!  We know from Cranberry Grade and other places what happens when crews try Georgia dynamic.  He won't have sleep-apnea worries if he does too much driving with that engaged...

 

If he uses the Georgia overdrive on a steep enough grade, the terror will keep him awake for a week . . . . if he lives.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 7:58 PM

Victrola1

Driverless cars and trucks. Driverless trains. Remove the human element. 

The software never gets tired. The software never ignores what the system says should be done, or not done. Make certain the software is debugged before using. 

The technology is not here yet, but the technology keeps improving. 

 

http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2016-07-01/tesla-crash-could-hurt-sentiment-on-driverless-cars

Jeff

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Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 4:09 PM
Deggesty you are correct and unless you have priority all those that are “reverse” flow will find themselves in the hole very often probably not even finish the trip due to HOS endmrw0705161602
The ONE the ONLY/ Paragould, Arkansas/ Est. 1883 / formerly called The Crossing/ a portmanteau/ JW Paramore (Cotton Belt RR) Jay Gould (MoPac)/crossed at our town/ None other, NOWHERE in the world
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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 3:50 PM

Cotton Belt MP104
In our area UP runs predominately Southbound trains 15 miles away there is a predominately Northbound originating from different points but converging at a division/crew change point that said I would question the statement there is no such thing as reverse…….. maybe strictly speaking it would not fit what I am going to say ….. when trains through my area are “against the flow”….. I would say they are in “reverse direction” endmrw0705161125
 

Thus, the Texas Eagle runs in the reverse direction over the part of its route where it runs against the flow of the freight traffic.

Johnny

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 11:29 AM

Overmod
I know I am. It may not be comforting to know that a host of Government people and academic researchers are trying, too, but there are plenty of academics and engineers that know and understand practical railroading. The key is to find a workable solution with the right characteristics. It's not easy, but there are a number of possibilities.

As long as people are trying. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 11:26 AM
In our area UP runs predominately Southbound trains 15 miles away there is a predominately Northbound originating from different points but converging at a division/crew change point that said I would question the statement there is no such thing as reverse…….. maybe strictly speaking it would not fit what I am going to say ….. when trains through my area are “against the flow”….. I would say they are in “reverse direction” endmrw0705161125
The ONE the ONLY/ Paragould, Arkansas/ Est. 1883 / formerly called The Crossing/ a portmanteau/ JW Paramore (Cotton Belt RR) Jay Gould (MoPac)/crossed at our town/ None other, NOWHERE in the world
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 11:05 AM

zugmann
But is anyone really trying?

I know I am.  It may not be comforting to know that a host of Government people and academic researchers are trying, too, but there are plenty of academics and engineers that know and understand practical railroading.  The key is to find a workable solution with the right characteristics.  It's not easy, but there are a number of possibilities.

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 11:01 AM

greyhounds
Nobody has found a real solution.

But is anyone really trying?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 11:00 AM

greyhounds
I got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive

Does he mean Georgia overdrive?  Yikes if so!  We know from Cranberry Grade and other places what happens when crews try Georgia dynamic.  He won't have sleep-apnea worries if he does too much driving with that engaged...

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Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 10:53 AM

I'd like to point out that sleep is a common problem for crews in much, if not all, transportation.  You'll even find tow boat crews complaining about sleep cycles, and they live on the boat.  Some years ago the crew of a cargo flight westbound to Los Angeles fell asleep on auto pilot and flew 300 miles past LA out over the Pacific.  Ground controllers finally managed to wake them up by causing an alarm to sound.  Truck divers are notorious for going without sleep.  It's even been celebrated in song:

Six Days on the Road
Well I pulled outta Pittsburgh a rollin' down that Eastern Sea board
I got my diesel wound up and she's a runnin' like a never before
There's a speed zone ahead alright well I don't see a cop in sight
Six days on the road and I'm a gonna make it home tonight
I got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive
I'm takin' little white pills and my eyes are open wide
Nobody has found a real solution.  I work eight on/16 off five days per week.  But transportation just doesn't work that way.  If the times train crews may be called are limited those crews will miss work and their paychecks will be reduced.  If a train crew cannot be started after 10 AM not only will they miss work, the freight won't move.  Try keeping the freight on your railroad after explaining that one to a customer.
And no, the railroad can't pay the crew anyway.  The railroad operates in a competitive environment and can't regularly pay for work not done.  Crews deserve to be well compensated but they have to perform a useful task for their pay.
It's a transportation industry wide problem.  And no one has developed a workable solution.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 10:22 AM

Victrola1
Driverless cars and trucks. Driverless trains. Remove the human element.

Right idea ... up to the end of the second sentence.  Very wrong idea by the time you got finished.

The last thing in the world that produces safety is reliance on "automatic" safety systems, particularly those that use autonomous artificial intelligence to take over from human vigilance.  It's appropriate to have autonomous systems assisting with driving; it's even sometimes appropriate to have them 'take over' from skilled human intention (as with some of the collision-avoidance logic built into expensive foreign cars).  But no matter how good the sensor suite, the integration into PTC logic, the fusion of images from satellites or drones or realtime cameras, there will always be situations where enough goes wrong that someone needs to be watching, ready to pull the chain.

"Make certain the software is debugged before using" -- you must be an IBM guy.  These are emergent systems likely running genetic algorithms.  They aren't 'debugged' fully before runtime so much as continually debugged and improved while running, with the emphasis (as it very often should be) being on correcting an emergent situation rather than trying to anticipate every possible failure case and designing deterministic/state-machine solutions for it.*

I do know what you mean, but in the modern world that statement smacks of the fellow at a WWI airbase who, when informed that hard landings were taking a toll of his aircraft and pilots, decreed that thereafter there shall be no more hard landings on his facility... like Shakespeare's answer to calling spirits from the vasty deep, it's easy to say, but a bit more difficult to code...

 

*Note that this does NOT mean you don't do exhaustive exercising and testing before putting an application 'live' -- let's leave Mr. Maimon and his whole pathetic strategy where it belongs, on the unemployment line -- just that you don't think when golden-build time comes you can, or even should, have a complete answer.

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Posted by Victrola1 on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 9:53 AM

Driverless cars and trucks. Driverless trains. Remove the human element. 

The software never gets tired. The software never ignores what the system says should be done, or not done. Make certain the software is debugged before using. 

The technology is not here yet, but the technology keeps improving. 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 9:42 AM

tree68
Not to mention strapping (steel - and like a knife at 50 MPH), loose lumber (on centerbeam flats)and even chains - saw that once on CSX. Had it hit something or snagged a lineside facility, there would have been problems - nevermind if it hit a person...

Or for that matter lineside debris -- one of the Final Destination movies used this as a teaser, but it's something to watch out for; although I suspect the projectile hazards of pennies on the rail are a bit overrated, small and not-so-small objects can be accelerated to the same remarkable high speeds (and carry comparable momentum), at the same rate that produces the high percentage of deaths in railroad vehicle collisions (thereby enhancing potential shrapnel formation).  And this can be started by aerodynamic forces, not just contact.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 9:15 AM

pedrop

The collision in Panhandle also give us railfans a lesson: never stay close to the tracks, specially when the trains are running fast. Nobody knows when a derail will happen. Broken rails, locomotive / car axles are common. Keep in mind the hint: Safety First and stay far from the tracks.

Not to mention strapping (steel - and like a knife at 50 MPH), loose lumber (on centerbeam flats)and even chains - saw that once on CSX.  Had it hit something or snagged a lineside facility, there would have been problems - nevermind if it hit a person...

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Posted by pedrop on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 8:59 AM

The collision in Panhandle also give us railfans a lesson: never stay close to the tracks, specially when the trains are running fast. Nobody knows when a derail will happen. Broken rails, locomotive / car axles are common. Keep in mind the hint: Safety First and stay far from the tracks

Brazil: the land of the 8 axles locomotives! Visit my web site http://minasgeraisrailways.ning.com/
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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 8:50 AM

Overmod
Tankers are things like 135s and 10s, or the Bedek MMTT 767 conversion

They're using DC10's for firefighting....

Back to the regularly scheduled thread.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 7:54 AM

tree68
Some people want to call them tenders, because folks on the left coast call firefighting airplanes "tankers..."

I thought most of 'em called firefighting airplanes 'bombers' (or 'water bombers').  Tankers are things like 135s and 10s, or the Bedek MMTT 767 conversion.  What they carry would not fight fires very effectively except perhaps to create very expedient backfires.

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Posted by BLS53 on Tuesday, July 5, 2016 7:27 AM

tree68

 

 
caldreamer
We knew Murphy TOO well.

 

Murphy was an optimist.

And we can't forget Gumperson's Law.  "If anything can go wrong, it will, and at the worst possible time.

Tankers:  Don't get me started when it comes to tankers and fire trucks.  Some people want to call them tenders, because folks on the left coast call firefighting airplanes "tankers..."

 

 

As for airplanes, a "tanker" is a military aircraft designed for inflight refueling operations. Fighting forest fires is very much a niche segment of aviation, and the terminology is not well known to those outside of the specific occupation. Aviation, including military aviation, and railroading are widespread operations that the general population should have a basic knowledge of.

Something to think about is the use of transportation modes in stories pertrayed in children's book. This historically has been where people learn the vocabulary of planes, trains, and boats. Perhaps that isn't true anymore.

A poll amongst people under 30, asking what a "caboose" is, might prove revealing. No Googling allowed.

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Posted by tdmidget on Monday, July 4, 2016 6:48 PM

Yes. These "operating experiences" are shared with all nuclear operators through the Institute for Nuclear Power Operation (INPO). These "OE"s are reviewed before any operation that they have affected in the past.

Three mile island was, as far as public safety, a non event. The total radiation released is less than you would get from a CT scan. It did, however do millions of dollars damaged to the reactor  it self. From this we learned that alarms need to be prioritized. The operators had so many alarms going off that they had trouble determining which was the most important. Today there is a hierarchy of alarms such that the most important. Others are likely downstream effects of the most important and do not need to sound, causing confusion and misdirection in the control room. If that had been the case that day, that unit would not have been damaged and would be operating today.

Chernobyl was a deficient design but they were operated for years before and after the disater with no problems. It was brought on by people wanting to be heroes and acting outside of procedures. The engineers wanted to prove that the generator, while spinning down from a unit trip, could power the reactor cooling pumps long enough to replace that power source. When a unit trips offline it has no load on it, which why it spins for 10-20 minutes at a pretty high speed. Two opreating crews had refused to do this test but the third ( We're heroes!! We can do it!!) tried it. With a load on the generator it stopped almost immediately , leaving no cooling. The graphite moderator began to burn and without any containment structure disaster happened. From this we learn not to operate dificient designs, to eliminate those who would work outside of procedures, whether engineering, operations, or management.

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