tdmidget caldreamer I spent 45 years working in the information technology industy. A number of which were in opeations and networking. We knew Murphy TOO well. When things were going smoothly and we were in normal routine, we would feel the middle of our backs for the knife that Murphy was about to stick in, AND HE DID. I had many disasterous shifts during my tenure in the industry. There is nothing you can do, but learn from them and try to minimize the frequency and effects of them by putting mitigation plans into your normal operating procedures. Would you like the nuclear power industry to adopt your attitude?
caldreamer I spent 45 years working in the information technology industy. A number of which were in opeations and networking. We knew Murphy TOO well. When things were going smoothly and we were in normal routine, we would feel the middle of our backs for the knife that Murphy was about to stick in, AND HE DID. I had many disasterous shifts during my tenure in the industry. There is nothing you can do, but learn from them and try to minimize the frequency and effects of them by putting mitigation plans into your normal operating procedures.
I spent 45 years working in the information technology industy. A number of which were in opeations and networking. We knew Murphy TOO well. When things were going smoothly and we were in normal routine, we would feel the middle of our backs for the knife that Murphy was about to stick in, AND HE DID. I had many disasterous shifts during my tenure in the industry. There is nothing you can do, but learn from them and try to minimize the frequency and effects of them by putting mitigation plans into your normal operating procedures.
Would you like the nuclear power industry to adopt your attitude?
I presume Three Mile Island and Chernobyl were 'Murphy' moments in the nuclear power industry. Did the industry learn from those events?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tdmidgetWould you like the nuclear power industry to adopt your attitude?
I would opine that such an attitude is common pretty much everywhere in industry. You plan for the best, and expect the worst. If the worst happens, you figure out why and plan for it not to happen again.
Remember that a software "bug" - which term actually came from an insect in a relay of a first gen computer - is analogous to a monkey wrench in machinery.
Stuff happens. As the old saying goes - "The best laid plans of mice and men."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Yes. These "operating experiences" are shared with all nuclear operators through the Institute for Nuclear Power Operation (INPO). These "OE"s are reviewed before any operation that they have affected in the past.
Three mile island was, as far as public safety, a non event. The total radiation released is less than you would get from a CT scan. It did, however do millions of dollars damaged to the reactor it self. From this we learned that alarms need to be prioritized. The operators had so many alarms going off that they had trouble determining which was the most important. Today there is a hierarchy of alarms such that the most important. Others are likely downstream effects of the most important and do not need to sound, causing confusion and misdirection in the control room. If that had been the case that day, that unit would not have been damaged and would be operating today.
Chernobyl was a deficient design but they were operated for years before and after the disater with no problems. It was brought on by people wanting to be heroes and acting outside of procedures. The engineers wanted to prove that the generator, while spinning down from a unit trip, could power the reactor cooling pumps long enough to replace that power source. When a unit trips offline it has no load on it, which why it spins for 10-20 minutes at a pretty high speed. Two opreating crews had refused to do this test but the third ( We're heroes!! We can do it!!) tried it. With a load on the generator it stopped almost immediately , leaving no cooling. The graphite moderator began to burn and without any containment structure disaster happened. From this we learn not to operate dificient designs, to eliminate those who would work outside of procedures, whether engineering, operations, or management.
tree68 caldreamer We knew Murphy TOO well. Murphy was an optimist. And we can't forget Gumperson's Law. "If anything can go wrong, it will, and at the worst possible time. Tankers: Don't get me started when it comes to tankers and fire trucks. Some people want to call them tenders, because folks on the left coast call firefighting airplanes "tankers..."
caldreamer We knew Murphy TOO well.
Murphy was an optimist.
And we can't forget Gumperson's Law. "If anything can go wrong, it will, and at the worst possible time.
Tankers: Don't get me started when it comes to tankers and fire trucks. Some people want to call them tenders, because folks on the left coast call firefighting airplanes "tankers..."
As for airplanes, a "tanker" is a military aircraft designed for inflight refueling operations. Fighting forest fires is very much a niche segment of aviation, and the terminology is not well known to those outside of the specific occupation. Aviation, including military aviation, and railroading are widespread operations that the general population should have a basic knowledge of.
Something to think about is the use of transportation modes in stories pertrayed in children's book. This historically has been where people learn the vocabulary of planes, trains, and boats. Perhaps that isn't true anymore.
A poll amongst people under 30, asking what a "caboose" is, might prove revealing. No Googling allowed.
tree68Some people want to call them tenders, because folks on the left coast call firefighting airplanes "tankers..."
I thought most of 'em called firefighting airplanes 'bombers' (or 'water bombers'). Tankers are things like 135s and 10s, or the Bedek MMTT 767 conversion. What they carry would not fight fires very effectively except perhaps to create very expedient backfires.
OvermodTankers are things like 135s and 10s, or the Bedek MMTT 767 conversion
They're using DC10's for firefighting....
Back to the regularly scheduled thread.
The collision in Panhandle also give us railfans a lesson: never stay close to the tracks, specially when the trains are running fast. Nobody knows when a derail will happen. Broken rails, locomotive / car axles are common. Keep in mind the hint: Safety First and stay far from the tracks
pedrop The collision in Panhandle also give us railfans a lesson: never stay close to the tracks, specially when the trains are running fast. Nobody knows when a derail will happen. Broken rails, locomotive / car axles are common. Keep in mind the hint: Safety First and stay far from the tracks.
The collision in Panhandle also give us railfans a lesson: never stay close to the tracks, specially when the trains are running fast. Nobody knows when a derail will happen. Broken rails, locomotive / car axles are common. Keep in mind the hint: Safety First and stay far from the tracks.
Not to mention strapping (steel - and like a knife at 50 MPH), loose lumber (on centerbeam flats)and even chains - saw that once on CSX. Had it hit something or snagged a lineside facility, there would have been problems - nevermind if it hit a person...
tree68Not to mention strapping (steel - and like a knife at 50 MPH), loose lumber (on centerbeam flats)and even chains - saw that once on CSX. Had it hit something or snagged a lineside facility, there would have been problems - nevermind if it hit a person...
Or for that matter lineside debris -- one of the Final Destination movies used this as a teaser, but it's something to watch out for; although I suspect the projectile hazards of pennies on the rail are a bit overrated, small and not-so-small objects can be accelerated to the same remarkable high speeds (and carry comparable momentum), at the same rate that produces the high percentage of deaths in railroad vehicle collisions (thereby enhancing potential shrapnel formation). And this can be started by aerodynamic forces, not just contact.
Driverless cars and trucks. Driverless trains. Remove the human element.
The software never gets tired. The software never ignores what the system says should be done, or not done. Make certain the software is debugged before using.
The technology is not here yet, but the technology keeps improving.
Victrola1Driverless cars and trucks. Driverless trains. Remove the human element.
Right idea ... up to the end of the second sentence. Very wrong idea by the time you got finished.
The last thing in the world that produces safety is reliance on "automatic" safety systems, particularly those that use autonomous artificial intelligence to take over from human vigilance. It's appropriate to have autonomous systems assisting with driving; it's even sometimes appropriate to have them 'take over' from skilled human intention (as with some of the collision-avoidance logic built into expensive foreign cars). But no matter how good the sensor suite, the integration into PTC logic, the fusion of images from satellites or drones or realtime cameras, there will always be situations where enough goes wrong that someone needs to be watching, ready to pull the chain.
"Make certain the software is debugged before using" -- you must be an IBM guy. These are emergent systems likely running genetic algorithms. They aren't 'debugged' fully before runtime so much as continually debugged and improved while running, with the emphasis (as it very often should be) being on correcting an emergent situation rather than trying to anticipate every possible failure case and designing deterministic/state-machine solutions for it.*
I do know what you mean, but in the modern world that statement smacks of the fellow at a WWI airbase who, when informed that hard landings were taking a toll of his aircraft and pilots, decreed that thereafter there shall be no more hard landings on his facility... like Shakespeare's answer to calling spirits from the vasty deep, it's easy to say, but a bit more difficult to code...
*Note that this does NOT mean you don't do exhaustive exercising and testing before putting an application 'live' -- let's leave Mr. Maimon and his whole pathetic strategy where it belongs, on the unemployment line -- just that you don't think when golden-build time comes you can, or even should, have a complete answer.
I'd like to point out that sleep is a common problem for crews in much, if not all, transportation. You'll even find tow boat crews complaining about sleep cycles, and they live on the boat. Some years ago the crew of a cargo flight westbound to Los Angeles fell asleep on auto pilot and flew 300 miles past LA out over the Pacific. Ground controllers finally managed to wake them up by causing an alarm to sound. Truck divers are notorious for going without sleep. It's even been celebrated in song:
greyhoundsI got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive
Does he mean Georgia overdrive? Yikes if so! We know from Cranberry Grade and other places what happens when crews try Georgia dynamic. He won't have sleep-apnea worries if he does too much driving with that engaged...
greyhoundsNobody has found a real solution.
But is anyone really trying?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannBut is anyone really trying?
I know I am. It may not be comforting to know that a host of Government people and academic researchers are trying, too, but there are plenty of academics and engineers that know and understand practical railroading. The key is to find a workable solution with the right characteristics. It's not easy, but there are a number of possibilities.
OvermodI know I am. It may not be comforting to know that a host of Government people and academic researchers are trying, too, but there are plenty of academics and engineers that know and understand practical railroading. The key is to find a workable solution with the right characteristics. It's not easy, but there are a number of possibilities.
As long as people are trying.
Cotton Belt MP104In our area UP runs predominately Southbound trains 15 miles away there is a predominately Northbound originating from different points but converging at a division/crew change point that said I would question the statement there is no such thing as reverse…….. maybe strictly speaking it would not fit what I am going to say ….. when trains through my area are “against the flow”….. I would say they are in “reverse direction” endmrw0705161125
Johnny
Victrola1 Driverless cars and trucks. Driverless trains. Remove the human element. The software never gets tired. The software never ignores what the system says should be done, or not done. Make certain the software is debugged before using. The technology is not here yet, but the technology keeps improving.
http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2016-07-01/tesla-crash-could-hurt-sentiment-on-driverless-cars
Jeff
Overmod greyhounds I got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive Does he mean Georgia overdrive? Yikes if so! We know from Cranberry Grade and other places what happens when crews try Georgia dynamic. He won't have sleep-apnea worries if he does too much driving with that engaged...
greyhounds I got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive
If he uses the Georgia overdrive on a steep enough grade, the terror will keep him awake for a week . . . . if he lives.
SALfan Overmod greyhounds I got me ten forward gears and my George overdrive Does he mean Georgia overdrive? Yikes if so! We know from Cranberry Grade and other places what happens when crews try Georgia dynamic. He won't have sleep-apnea worries if he does too much driving with that engaged... If he uses the Georgia overdrive on a steep enough grade, the terror will keep him awake for a week . . . . if he lives.
That's no damn fair, and you know it! Sesky was a hero -- bananas and perhaps lack of initial judgment aside, he did intentionally sacrifice himself making sure no one else got wiped out.
It sounds like (my hearing muy malo) Dudley says "Georgia Overdrive" in the song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-kUyV76X-g
But the point is the truck drivers were (are?) taking drugs to stay awake.
There has been much dicussion about the role of the east bound DPU continuing to push. As this poster understand and the NTSB will have to determine. If the collision caused the radio link to quit before any emergency brake application started the DPU would have still pushed until the 7 - 10 second emergency brake delay reached the DPU.
Also what is time amount for a DPU unit to go to idle ? There is certainly some relays to activate. 1-3 seconds ?
Any comments ?
blue streak 1 There has been much dicussion about the role of the east bound DPU continuing to push. As this poster understand and the NTSB will have to determine. If the collision caused the radio link to quit before any emergency brake application started the DPU would have still pushed until the 7 - 10 second emergency brake delay reached the DPU. Also what is time amount for a DPU unit to go to idle ? There is certainly some relays to activate. 1-3 seconds ? Any comments ?
What is the basis for expecting the DPU had continued to push? If the brakes were not applied prior to impact, they would have gone into Emergency at the moment of impact. What the video shows a few seconds after impact is what I would expect in terms of train speed, if impact speed was 67 mph as someone said.
Has it been established as fact there was a DPU on the eastbound train? If so, I missed that.
Norm
I have the day off and I showed this one to him. His father was an OTR driver as was he for a few years. Here is the punishment if you test hot from the FMCSA now an Automatic 2 Year Suspension of your CDL and 50K dollar fine. You think people are going to risk that.
Shadow the Cats ownerYou think people are going to risk that.
I think they do, perhaps in comparatively large numbers. I also think, not to pillory any particular nationality, that the problem may be more pronounced since NAFTA. But I can't really prove anything, other than to note that post-accident whiz-quiz statistics might be enlightening ... for those who 'speed' and subsequently use insufficient skill or judgment. There sure wasn't much of a systematic effort to 'predictively' detect it in the past, on the part of the Feds, the insurers, or anyone else in a position to marshal the resources and compulsion/"incentives" to achieve broad default enforcement... is there now a system of random drug tests at frequent intervals imposed on all CDL drivers? Last I looked there was considerable resistance (to put it mildly) to implementing that in the railroad industry.
Out of curiosity, what did he say about using Georgia overdrive, especially on sections that have frequent, but not alarmingly posted, downgrades?
With what the Fines are for speeding are for CDL holders take what they are for a normal license holder multiply them by 5 then your close. Then throw in if you get more than 3 tickets for speeding your getting a 6 month unpaid vacation and traffic school or Court Supervison is not an option at all for CDL holders per FMCSA regulations. Then throw in when pulled over your entire truck is open for an inspection where if they want they can and will Fine you for it.
Anymore it is not about Safety on the road for the DOT for the states it is all about Revenue for them.
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