As the transcon West of Belen has ATS and the Amtrak, can anyone advise whether this part of the transcon has ATS? It would appear that it did not due to the fact that one of the trains ran a stop signal.
Also, doesn't this accident nulify the claim that a second crew person in the cab adds safety?
BaltACDVideo shows BNSF engine on adjacent track to the impacting train, is it known if a crew was on that engine? If so, what were their observations?
According to comments in the Facebook version of the video, the engines hit a backhoe the day before the accident, and someone was actually driving out to work on them but had car trouble that held him up 'just long enough' not to be there at the time.
n012944 Buslist schlimm So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on? If it's properly functioning CTC territory the dispatcher couldn't cause this. Facts like that are irrelevent to someone on a railroad employee witchhunt.
Buslist schlimm So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on? If it's properly functioning CTC territory the dispatcher couldn't cause this.
schlimm So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on?
So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on?
If it's properly functioning CTC territory the dispatcher couldn't cause this.
Facts like that are irrelevent to someone on a railroad employee witchhunt.
lots of expert opinions just no expertise, waiting for the Ya But.
Euclid Overmod The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video. So is it not the video posted above by n012944?
Overmod The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video. So is it not the video posted above by n012944?
Maybe, maybe not. When n012944's linked video starts I would estimate the speed at about 15 to 18 MPH - movement appears to stop about 12 seconds into the 29 second video. Unable to tell if brakes had been applied before impact (and impact is not shown on the video). Video shows BNSF engine on adjacent track to the impacting train, is it known if a crew was on that engine? If so, what were their observations?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
OvermodThe video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video.
So is it not the video posted above by n012944?
schlimm Overmod Link to said video?
Overmod
Link to said video?
There are now several sources on the Web, none of which I want to link directly to a post (two of them contain scripted adware that has frozen my Firefox browser repeatedly). The original appears to be one of the local channel 7 TV affiliates, which then put the video up on its Facebook page -- I don't 'do' Facebook but was able to get the video to play. I'll provide that link if anyone prefers to load it here instead of Googling directly.
The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video. (This can be measured by choosing a fixed reference like the front of the stopped motor, and measuring the time it takes for each container to pass) It seems almost as if there is a DPU on the rear of the train that has not disengaged.
I don't of course know the actual time of engagement or the rate at which the brakes applied; we will have to wait for the NTSB to retrieve that information (probably in part from whatever was acting as the EOT device) and reconstruct the application. But it is a ghastly thing to see those cars running so freely into what we already know is a full collision with people present.
Overmod If that is the EB train I see moving in the immediate-post-collision Martin & Sonya New video, it appears to me more than likely the train brakes weren't applied at all before the collision, or the throttle closed, and the brakes are only setting up after the trainline broke sometime in the initial impact.
What is it about that video that makes you conclude that the brakes were not applied before the collision?
An "expensive model collector"
Overmod I have to wonder if this is something darker than sleep.
I have to wonder if this is something darker than sleep.
That is a very scary thought.
OvermodIf that is the EB train I see moving in the immediate-post-collision Martin & Sonya New video
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
petitnj Unfortunately there is no way to detect sleep but there appears no contrary evidence. As you say there was no brake application. The signals worked. Visibility unlimited. The interior camera would show evidence (if not burned up in the oil fire). No blame implied. According to the National Sleep Foundation’s 2005 Sleep in America poll, 60% of adult drivers – about 168 million people – say they have driven a vehicle while feeling drowsy in the past year, and more than one-third, (37% or 103 million people), have actually fallen asleep at the wheel! In fact, of those who have nodded off, 13% say they have done so at least once a month. Four percent – approximately eleven million drivers – admit they have had an accident or near accident because they dozed off or were too tired to drive. If I were a railroad I would feel lucky that 4% of my trains don't end up as scrap metal each year.
Unfortunately there is no way to detect sleep but there appears no contrary evidence. As you say there was no brake application. The signals worked. Visibility unlimited. The interior camera would show evidence (if not burned up in the oil fire). No blame implied.
According to the National Sleep Foundation’s 2005 Sleep in America poll, 60% of adult drivers – about 168 million people – say they have driven a vehicle while feeling drowsy in the past year, and more than one-third, (37% or 103 million people), have actually fallen asleep at the wheel! In fact, of those who have nodded off, 13% say they have done so at least once a month. Four percent – approximately eleven million drivers – admit they have had an accident or near accident because they dozed off or were too tired to drive.
If I were a railroad I would feel lucky that 4% of my trains don't end up as scrap metal each year.
We're all glad that you're not a railroad...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
petitnj East Bound crew slept thru the whole thing. Alerter and all. When are we going to make crew schedules reasonable so they get real sleep?
East Bound crew slept thru the whole thing. Alerter and all. When are we going to make crew schedules reasonable so they get real sleep?
Making that sort of unequivocally blaming statement without a verifiable source is pretty questionable.
petitnj East Bound crew slept thru the whole thing. Alerter and all.
I too would now be highly interested in the source of that information ... the whole chain of evidence (both in how we're hearing about it, and what supposedly happened to produce the collision)
I wasn't saying anything, but watching the whole 'dispatcher' business makes me note something. If that is the EB train I see moving in the immediate-post-collision Martin & Sonya New video, it appears to me more than likely the train brakes weren't applied at all before the collision, or the throttle closed, and the brakes are only setting up after the trainline broke sometime in the initial impact. I have to wonder if this is something darker than sleep.
Not looking forward to sleep apnea redux, or the inevitable commentry about how "PTC would have prevented this accident". Let alone, perhaps, starting to blame the dead before we're sure what happened.
Source of that information please?
Norm
schlimmLast I looked, this forum is provided by Trains, not Modern Farmer.
Might as well discuss vegetables. God knows everything else is being talked about here.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
C'mon, people. Too many would-be monitors on this subject. The Panhandle accident is an entirely legitimate subject of discussion and, yes, speculation on a railroad forum.
"Respect" -- if that's what cowed silence is -- is not owed people whose relatives have made the public news and probably don't read the forum anyway. It certainly cannot be commanded by such as SF Brakeman, who has no standing to do so, no matter what he imagines.
It's history that a lot of similar accidents happened back in the bad old days of BN before stricter testing. Does that mean I'm saying the same thing happened here? Of course not. But it's certainly one of the possibilities, as are other scenarios raised here.
All legitimate. Those who think otherwise have a right to their opinion but no business using their free speech to try to stifle that of others.
n012944Sfbrakeman did not mention anything about the irrelevant accident 30 years ago.
No, that was NP Eddie - who offered sfbrkmn moral support.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
schlimm Euclid Why do you bring it up? Nobody is doing any of that here. Nobody is throwing around unsubstatiated claim or referencesk. Nobody is pointing any finger of blame. Nobody is being disrespectful. So why are you so concerned about it? The people who brought up the accident of 32 years ago (which obviously has nothing to do with this incident) were apparently railroaders - NP Eddie and sfbrakeman.
Euclid Why do you bring it up? Nobody is doing any of that here. Nobody is throwing around unsubstatiated claim or referencesk. Nobody is pointing any finger of blame. Nobody is being disrespectful. So why are you so concerned about it?
The people who brought up the accident of 32 years ago (which obviously has nothing to do with this incident) were apparently railroaders - NP Eddie and sfbrakeman.
Sfbrakeman did not mention anything about the irrelevant accident 30 years ago.
Murphy Siding schlimm The people who brought up the accident of 32 years ago (which obviously has nothing to do with this incident) were apparently railroaders - NP Eddie and sfbrakeman. Would that be more or less relevant if in stead of being railroaders they were vegetable farmers?
schlimm The people who brought up the accident of 32 years ago (which obviously has nothing to do with this incident) were apparently railroaders - NP Eddie and sfbrakeman.
Would that be more or less relevant if in stead of being railroaders they were vegetable farmers?
I said apparently. As you have always been a big advocate of deferring to railroaders' inside knowledge, I am surprised that you need to inquire as to the relevance. Last I looked, this forum is provided by Trains, not Modern Farmer.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
EuclidWhy do you bring it up? Nobody is doing any of that here. Nobody is throwing around unsubstatiated claim or references. Nobody is pointing any finger of blame. Nobody is being disrespectful. So why are you so concerned about it?
ROBERT WILLISON I not either attacking or feel I am being attacked, I don't think this the proper place or time to being throwing around unsubstantiated claims or references. The families involved st all levels are grieving and the accident will be fully investigated. We are all here to enjoy the hobby. For me it does not involve point the finger of blame. Lets be respectful to all involved here.
I not either attacking or feel I am being attacked, I don't think this the proper place or time to being throwing around unsubstantiated claims or references. The families involved st all levels are grieving and the accident will be fully investigated. We are all here to enjoy the hobby. For me it does not involve point the finger of blame. Lets be respectful to all involved here.
ROBERT WILLISON Just responding to certain poster referring to knowing a certain dispatcher who is not qualified.
Just responding to certain poster referring to knowing a certain dispatcher who is not qualified.
Without geting into an ad Hominem attack. I would suggest that the problem in your above post might be related to a single "IS" rather than the inferrd problem "WAS" relating to another wreck from the late 1980's.
I would suggest that you refer to and reread posts, previous to yours. Posts on this thread; as well as reading the concurrently running Thread here referencing the same 'accident' near Panhandle, Tx.
Then bear in mind the loss of life caused in what happened on Tuesday AM near Panhandle,Tx. Respect the families feeling that are personally involved, pray for them, and their loss. Then move along...Rest assured that the NTSB, and BNSF are completely competent to reconstruct the events of the collision and preceeding events. They will come to a solid conclusion, and recommend rules and regulations to hopefully, prevent a reoccurance.
NOTE: 'The GCOR is written by the General Code of Operating Rules Committee. The Committee is made up of members from the FRA, NTSB, some offices of the PUC and of course member railroads.
Regularly, the committee meets and writes a new edition, approximately, every 4 years (?)
and this 'CAUTION: [paraphrased] "...Operating rules exist because they are written in the blood of railroaders..."
Paul of Covington It has been said that this area was CTC controlled. I was wondering: even with CTC, aren't there also track circuits that would prevent conflicting signals?
It has been said that this area was CTC controlled. I was wondering: even with CTC, aren't there also track circuits that would prevent conflicting signals?
If the signal system is functioning properly, correct. The CTC machine prevents the dispatcher from establishing a conflicting route and the ABS system in the field sets signals coverning entrance to a block to stop when a block is occupied and sets opposing intermediates to restricting/stop and proceed.
If so, and if an engineer was given clearance and sees a red signal, wouldn't he double check with dispatcher?
Kinda backwards, if an engineer sees a red signal, he would have to get a clearance from the dispatcher to pass it.
In CTC the signal is the train's authority to proceed. If the train encounters a stop signal then they would have to stop and get verbal permission from the train dispatcher to pass the signal displaying stop.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
ROBERT WILLISON Who really thinks talking about a certain person performance on here is any where near appropriate. Let the railroad do the investigation on private and on site. This kind of speculation is never a good thing, making the site into a tabloid.
Who really thinks talking about a certain person performance on here is any where near appropriate. Let the railroad do the investigation on private and on site. This kind of speculation is never a good thing, making the site into a tabloid.
I do not know what you are referring to as someone "talking about a certain person performance" in this thread. The only mention I have seen here about anyone's performance is a reference to a BNSF wreck 32 years ago, and that is all a matter of public record. There is no speculation involved.
I do not see any speculation or accusations directed toward anybody involved in the Panhandle wreck, which is the subject of this thread.
I have long understood (mistakenly?) that it is impossible to set up conflicting routes using CTC--so long as there is no problem with the circuitry.
The Minnesota wreck several years ago was obviously the result of man failure. This one is not obviously the same. Let us wait until the cause has actually been determined before accusing anyone.
Johnny
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