schlimmLast I looked, this forum is provided by Trains, not Modern Farmer.
Might as well discuss vegetables. God knows everything else is being talked about here.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
East Bound crew slept thru the whole thing. Alerter and all. When are we going to make crew schedules reasonable so they get real sleep?
petitnj East Bound crew slept thru the whole thing. Alerter and all. When are we going to make crew schedules reasonable so they get real sleep?
Source of that information please?
Norm
petitnj East Bound crew slept thru the whole thing. Alerter and all.
I too would now be highly interested in the source of that information ... the whole chain of evidence (both in how we're hearing about it, and what supposedly happened to produce the collision)
I wasn't saying anything, but watching the whole 'dispatcher' business makes me note something. If that is the EB train I see moving in the immediate-post-collision Martin & Sonya New video, it appears to me more than likely the train brakes weren't applied at all before the collision, or the throttle closed, and the brakes are only setting up after the trainline broke sometime in the initial impact. I have to wonder if this is something darker than sleep.
Not looking forward to sleep apnea redux, or the inevitable commentry about how "PTC would have prevented this accident". Let alone, perhaps, starting to blame the dead before we're sure what happened.
Unfortunately there is no way to detect sleep but there appears no contrary evidence. As you say there was no brake application. The signals worked. Visibility unlimited. The interior camera would show evidence (if not burned up in the oil fire). No blame implied.
According to the National Sleep Foundation’s 2005 Sleep in America poll, 60% of adult drivers – about 168 million people – say they have driven a vehicle while feeling drowsy in the past year, and more than one-third, (37% or 103 million people), have actually fallen asleep at the wheel! In fact, of those who have nodded off, 13% say they have done so at least once a month. Four percent – approximately eleven million drivers – admit they have had an accident or near accident because they dozed off or were too tired to drive.
If I were a railroad I would feel lucky that 4% of my trains don't end up as scrap metal each year.
Making that sort of unequivocally blaming statement without a verifiable source is pretty questionable.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
petitnj Unfortunately there is no way to detect sleep but there appears no contrary evidence. As you say there was no brake application. The signals worked. Visibility unlimited. The interior camera would show evidence (if not burned up in the oil fire). No blame implied. According to the National Sleep Foundation’s 2005 Sleep in America poll, 60% of adult drivers – about 168 million people – say they have driven a vehicle while feeling drowsy in the past year, and more than one-third, (37% or 103 million people), have actually fallen asleep at the wheel! In fact, of those who have nodded off, 13% say they have done so at least once a month. Four percent – approximately eleven million drivers – admit they have had an accident or near accident because they dozed off or were too tired to drive. If I were a railroad I would feel lucky that 4% of my trains don't end up as scrap metal each year.
We're all glad that you're not a railroad...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
OvermodIf that is the EB train I see moving in the immediate-post-collision Martin & Sonya New video
Link to said video?
schlimm So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on?
So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on?
If it's properly functioning CTC territory the dispatcher couldn't cause this.
Overmod I have to wonder if this is something darker than sleep.
I have to wonder if this is something darker than sleep.
That is a very scary thought.
An "expensive model collector"
Buslist schlimm So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on? If it's properly functioning CTC territory the dispatcher couldn't cause this.
Facts like that are irrelevent to someone on a railroad employee witchhunt.
Overmod If that is the EB train I see moving in the immediate-post-collision Martin & Sonya New video, it appears to me more than likely the train brakes weren't applied at all before the collision, or the throttle closed, and the brakes are only setting up after the trainline broke sometime in the initial impact.
What is it about that video that makes you conclude that the brakes were not applied before the collision?
schlimm Overmod Link to said video?
Overmod
There are now several sources on the Web, none of which I want to link directly to a post (two of them contain scripted adware that has frozen my Firefox browser repeatedly). The original appears to be one of the local channel 7 TV affiliates, which then put the video up on its Facebook page -- I don't 'do' Facebook but was able to get the video to play. I'll provide that link if anyone prefers to load it here instead of Googling directly.
The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video. (This can be measured by choosing a fixed reference like the front of the stopped motor, and measuring the time it takes for each container to pass) It seems almost as if there is a DPU on the rear of the train that has not disengaged.
I don't of course know the actual time of engagement or the rate at which the brakes applied; we will have to wait for the NTSB to retrieve that information (probably in part from whatever was acting as the EOT device) and reconstruct the application. But it is a ghastly thing to see those cars running so freely into what we already know is a full collision with people present.
OvermodThe video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video.
So is it not the video posted above by n012944?
Euclid Overmod The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video. So is it not the video posted above by n012944?
Overmod The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video. So is it not the video posted above by n012944?
Maybe, maybe not. When n012944's linked video starts I would estimate the speed at about 15 to 18 MPH - movement appears to stop about 12 seconds into the 29 second video. Unable to tell if brakes had been applied before impact (and impact is not shown on the video). Video shows BNSF engine on adjacent track to the impacting train, is it known if a crew was on that engine? If so, what were their observations?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
n012944 Buslist schlimm So, the 64 dollar question is: Were there questions about the qualifications of the dispatcher involved with the W. Texas head-on? If it's properly functioning CTC territory the dispatcher couldn't cause this. Facts like that are irrelevent to someone on a railroad employee witchhunt.
lots of expert opinions just no expertise, waiting for the Ya But.
BaltACDVideo shows BNSF engine on adjacent track to the impacting train, is it known if a crew was on that engine? If so, what were their observations?
According to comments in the Facebook version of the video, the engines hit a backhoe the day before the accident, and someone was actually driving out to work on them but had car trouble that held him up 'just long enough' not to be there at the time.
As the transcon West of Belen has ATS and the Amtrak, can anyone advise whether this part of the transcon has ATS? It would appear that it did not due to the fact that one of the trains ran a stop signal.
Also, doesn't this accident nulify the claim that a second crew person in the cab adds safety?
Schimm:
I AM a retired professional railroader with 38 years of service on the NP-BN-BNSF, all at Northtown (Minneapolis). My service date was 4 7 1966 and my seniority date was 4 13 1966. I was a clerk working in the Operating, Engineering, and Material Departments. When I started we walked up and down tracks checking cars and writing up train lists.
Ed Burns (NP Eddie)
Electroliner 1935Also, doesn't this accident nullify the claim that a second crew person in the cab adds safety?
Not at all. There are a great many situations -- including, for example, Amtrak 188 -- where an independent brain and pair of eyes are likely to add 'sufficient' safety to prevent accidents. This just happens to be a case ... for whatever reason ... where that didn't matter.
Someone has already commented sarcastically on how 'inward facing cameras' wouldn't have provided safety here. But I actually have to wonder whether a proper 'sleep monitoring' system using cameras (which need not tinhorn to the weed weasels when active, by the way) could have detected an incapacitated crew in enough time to prevent this kind of accident, or at least allow some attempt to mitigate the force of the eventual collision or allow the other crew to get clear.
BaltACD Euclid Overmod The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video. Maybe, maybe not.
Euclid Overmod The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video.
Overmod The video begins several seconds after the actual collision; it would be possible to derive a time reference by reversing the evolution of the original 'fireball'. It looked to me as if the visible cars are moving faster than the stated '49mph' and I'm not seeing much if any visible decrease in their speed over the course of the first part of the video.
Maybe, maybe not.
That is not the video I was referring to, that I saw this morning. In the part I saw, the cars are moving 'right to left' at much higher speed, with the initial 'puff' of smoke which I concluded to be from the moment of impact still in a round ball rising at left center of the image, and very little fire or smoke visibly coming up yet. It now appears the cuts provided by Channel 7 are edited down just to show the left-hand train near the moment it stopped.
It is not likely I'm confusing this with a separate video clip by another poster, because I spent a considerable amount of time reading the Facebook posts on the right side of the 'view'.
Electroliner 1935Also, doesn't this accident nulify the claim that a second crew person in the cab adds safety?
I'm with Overmod - under most circumstances, a second set of eyes is invaluable.
Assuming the crew asleep angle has validity, one would normally expect that the awake crew member would waken the snoozing crew member. There are a variety of ways that "check and balance" might not work, but I'll not speculate here.
There is also the possibility of distraction - f'rinstance a spirited discussion about sports teams or anything else might draw the crew's attention away from the tasks at hand. If they are "old hands" on that line, they might have gotten complacent - comfortable with their ability to run the line despite the distraction.
Short of cab video or other "smoking guns," we will probably never know exactly what happened. The event recorders may tell a tale, but they won't tell the reasons for the crew's actions or inactions.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Electroliner 1935 I'm with Overmod - under most circumstances, a second set of eyes is invaluable. Assuming the crew asleep angle has validity, one would normally expect that the awake crew member would waken the snoozing crew member. There are a variety of ways that "check and balance" might not work, but I'll not speculate here. There is also the possibility of distraction - f'rinstance a spirited discussion about sports teams or anything else might draw the crew's attention away from the tasks at hand. If they are "old hands" on that line, they might have gotten complacent - comfortable with their ability to run the line despite the distraction. Short of cab video or other "smoking guns," we will probably never know exactly what happened. The event recorders may tell a tale, but they won't tell the reasons for the crew's actions or inactions.
Electroliner 1935
Can't speak for BNSF, most of the engines on my carrier have been fitted with the forward facing DVR - IF (and it is a BIG IF) the DVR and it's data as well as the event recorder data survived the fire they will be a a treasure trove of hard data as to what took place - they may not answer why, but they will answer what DID take place.
n012944 Overmod I have to wonder if this is something darker than sleep. That is a very scary thought.
Currently, the line is now open and we are seeing traffic passing primarily, yesterday and today, pretty much all domestic can and some TOFC, which have been majority' reefers', TOFC, along with regular-route common carrier trailers. YRC, Ellis, etc.
The following link is from TV11 KCBD in Lubbock,Tx...It contains video and still shots of both side views and aerial shots of the collision scene, as well as the clean up and a side shot of BNSF#7909. Pluse footage of the News Conference held by the Lead NTSB Investigator.
http://www.kcbd.com/story/32338885/ntsb-begins-investigation-into-deadly-train-crash
Human factors investigation questions. This route is "usually" right hand traffic running. Was the east bound on other track for some reason ? Could it have been that an overtaking eastbound 2nd train was lined to go on the usual eastbound track ? Could crew of collision train observed clear signals on usual eastbound track and called them out instead of the track they were on ?
As an aside why has the 4th crew member not been found ? Also was the surviving crewman on the westbound preparing to do an on ground rollby ?
Perhaps someone can clarify this point:
What is the basis for introducing the discussion of crewmembers falling asleep and causing this wreck or other wrecks? I can see the topical relationship, but is there any evidence that falling asleep caused this collision in Panhandle, TX?
As I understand it, there are only two points of evidence that sleep played a role in this wreck:
The observation that one train apparently did not apply any brakes before impact.
Besides the crew being asleep, there is no other evidence that supports a cause of the wreck.
I fail to understand the basis of item #1.
EuclidWhat is the basis for introducing the discussion of crewmembers falling asleep and causing this wreck...
There isn't any, other than a supposition. There are limited reasons for why a crew of two would run a red board and collide head-on with another train at high speed. Sleep historically has been blamed for a number of these, so there is a basis to use it as a hypothesis, even in a sense the starting hypothesis for doing the analysis phase of an investigation.
... or other wrecks?
This is where I start having a particular bone to pick with this and similar threads. Some of the 'other wrecks' have little or no bearing on the present situation, but that evidently doesn't stop some people from commenting as if they did.
The basis of item 1 is that no railroader runs a train straight through a CTC red board and into collision with another train without applying the brake. If that is in fact the case, it's a strong indication something kept the crew -- either member of the crew -- from acting. Not just 'with inadequate time', but at all.
"Sleep" is a logical cause of this sort of thing, as seen or at least alleged in the Metro North derailment at Spuyten Duyvil. It remains to be seen if there was any cumulative cause for or likelihood of that occurring, and we presently have none of that information (or any real way to obtain it). So, having duly raised the possibility, the topic now devolves rather quickly into horse-beating until more specific data come in.
One of the things that came to mind, rightly or wrongly, was a freak accident, I think with FTs on a Western road, where the locomotive was moving at just the same speed as atmospheric conditions were blowing the exhaust, and the head-end crew were overcome and died either from anoxia or carbon-monoxide poisoning. I don't remember in that case whether the train stopped via 'dead man pedal' or other safety device, but in the absence of functioning ATS it would have produced just this sort of collision if it had not. And it is the peculiar violence of this collision, in large part, that is behind #1.
OvermodThere are limited reasons for why a crew of two would run a red board and collide head-on with another train at high speed.
Do we actually know that for a fact in this case?
Overmod,
I see what you are saying. In my sentence containing "other wrecks", I was not referring to the inclusion of other wrecks into this discussion. Instead, what I meant was how some posts here are discussing the general effect of sleep problems as they might apply to all train wrecks. I agree that we should not confuse this thread with discussion of other wrecks unless it is made entirely clear which wreck is being referred to and what a relevant connection might be.
I definitely see your point about no brakes applying prior to impact on one of the trains seems to strongly indicate some form of unconsciousness on the part of the engineer and conductor. That could have been due to sleep. However, it could also indicate a medical condition on the part of the engineer, and sleep on the part of the conductor; or several other variations.
The one part that I am interested in is the conclusion that no brakes were applied on one of the trains prior to impact. I can understand how a video could reinforce that conclusion, but I have not seen the video that is said to indicate that.
About that video, I also wonder how it just happened that anyone happened to video the scene so near the start of the collision. And I wonder exactly where the video begins in relation to the approach, locomotive impact, and continuation of the colliding trains.
schlimm Overmod Do we actually know that for a fact in this case?
Sheesh, it's common sense. How many 'reasons' could there be for it to happen, especially since we've already ruled 'dispatcher error' out entirely? Suicide pact? Alleged terrorism? Sunlight in just the wrong place in a searchlight signal?
It's not normal to run trains through red signals and into other trains at high speed. So it is at least appropriate to look at reasons that might produce such an observed result ... and to start ruling out those that couldn't.
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