Euclid zugmann Euclid Because there is less compliance with stop signs at grade crossings, the MUTCD worries that using stop signs at grade crossings will degrade the overall compliance with stop signs, and thus reduce stop sign compliance at road intersections. Happen to have any source for this? MUTCD 2009 edition has all sorts of guidelines for using stop and yield signs with passive crossings. The following is from this source on page 23 http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_470-a.pdf Quote from the source: 1. Studies have consistently observed low rates of compliance with Stop signs that are used at rail crossings even though their use is typically limited to more severe sites. There is concern that broad use at passive crossings would further reduce the perceived urgency and legitimacy of the Stop message, degrading compliance further. 2. Concern has been expressed by the traffic engineering community that the widespread use of nonrequired Stop signs will breed a general disrespect for this TCD that will generalize to other applications. There is no direct empirical support for this breeding of disrespect, and, in fact, it would be very hard to prove or disprove. However, because Stop signs are so widespread and critical in intersection traffic control, there is a potential for severe consequences even if there is only a minor amount of generalized disrespect.
zugmann Euclid Because there is less compliance with stop signs at grade crossings, the MUTCD worries that using stop signs at grade crossings will degrade the overall compliance with stop signs, and thus reduce stop sign compliance at road intersections. Happen to have any source for this? MUTCD 2009 edition has all sorts of guidelines for using stop and yield signs with passive crossings.
Euclid Because there is less compliance with stop signs at grade crossings, the MUTCD worries that using stop signs at grade crossings will degrade the overall compliance with stop signs, and thus reduce stop sign compliance at road intersections.
Happen to have any source for this? MUTCD 2009 edition has all sorts of guidelines for using stop and yield signs with passive crossings.
The following is from this source on page 23
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_470-a.pdf
Quote from the source:
1. Studies have consistently observed low rates of compliance with Stop signs that are used at rail crossings even though their use is typically limited to more severe sites. There is concern that broad use at passive crossings would further reduce the perceived urgency and legitimacy of the Stop message, degrading compliance further.
2. Concern has been expressed by the traffic engineering community that the widespread use of nonrequired Stop signs will breed a general disrespect for this TCD that will generalize to other applications. There is no direct empirical support for this breeding of disrespect, and, in fact, it would be very hard to prove or disprove.
However, because Stop signs are so widespread and critical in intersection traffic control, there is a potential for severe consequences even if there is only a minor amount of generalized disrespect.
The above in blue is what I found in REPORT 470. The thinking seems to be that adding yield signs to crossbucks at passive crossings will always help and never hurt. But adding stop signs enters into a fair amount of controversy. One issue is that lots of drivers don't come to a full stop.
While the failure to come to a complete stop is definitive in testing compliance, I think it is faulty to conclude that the failure to completely stop completely offsets the benefit of a stop sign.
From the quoted study:The first objective of the research was to assess the effectiveness of the stop-sign treatment on crossing safety. It was found that the annual accident rates during the period when the crossings were controlled by crossbucks only were consistently higher than the accident rates after the stop-sign installation. The study finding supports that stop-sign treatment should be an effective and inexpensive method to improve safety at public grade crossings.
Note the critical difference between this and the reasoning the NCUTCD members et al. gave as their reasoning for not using widespread stop signage at passive crossings.
Of course, when the 'crossbuck' is commonly not recognized as being a yield sign, let alone a stop sign for 'stop, look, listen' purposes, replacing it with an absolute STOP will result in greater safety, statistically, than when folks just blissfully slow down enough to avoid bottoming out on the crossing. The argument is that if there are too many stop signs out in the middle of nowhere, it might breed contempt for stop signs in other locations and contexts, and I suspect those people have equally good (or at least statistically valid) studies and data to support their view.
DeggestyI have noticed the same sequence here--after the amber flashers are on, and the bus has stopped the red flashers come on, whether it is for a railroad crossing or it is to take on or discharge pasengers.
Here in PA (at least these parts) the school busses just use their regular hazard lights when stopping at a railroad crossing.
As far as visibilty, just about all the busses here have the clear stobes on the roof. Now my biggest issue is when buses doesn't have sun shades over the red and amber flashers. They can get washed out during certain times of day.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Can’t keep up with the literature. Disregard if redundant. Excerpt from article at link.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232878711_Evaluation_of_Effectiveness_of_Stop-Sign_Treatment_at_Highway-Railroad_Grade_Crossings
This study was focused on a 26 year accident history of passive highway grade crossings that were originally controlled by crossbucks only and were later upgraded to stop controls. The first objective of the research was to assess the effectiveness of the stop-sign treatment on crossing safety. It was found that the annual accident rates during the period when the crossings were controlled by crossbucks only were consistently higher than the accident rates after the stop-sign installation. The study finding supports that stop-sign treatment should be an effective and inexpensive method to improve safety at public grade crossings. This conclusion is consistent with prior accident rate analyses for stop-sign usage at passive crossings...
https://archive.org/stream/trafficengineeri00instrich#page/286/mode/2up
-- I honestly don't know whether to be impressed or amused by it -- which provides a light that goes OUT when a train is present. Makes sense because it really, absolutely, positively fails safe; it also makes sense from a railroad-rules perspective because light out = most restrictive indication.
Ever been around the MONON railroad in Indiana? They used to use a green light to indicate it was OK to proceed across the tracks. If the light was out, stop.
EuclidBut in any case, he told me about that other reference that I linked called NCHRP REPORT 470 about passive crossings. I have not looked at it recently, but there is some interesting information in there as I recall. It is this: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_470-a.pdf
Do you have the second part of this report, including the TL;DR 'conclusion' section starting on p.50? The link you provided only goes up to p.42. I'm presuming the second part is
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_470-b.pdf
Every time I look at that picture of the daughters, which is now what my screen goes to after I post, it makes me want to do something so this never happens again.
All I know is I look at that picture of those little angels and I want to break down and cry.
Now they are angels, but I still want to cry."
Me too.
And I can't imagine what happens next, or what life will be like, for the little one who survived.
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
There is a system available that provides yellow flashing lights as advance warning when the red flashing lights at the crossing activate. It is used for special circumstances such as restricted vision and high road speeds.
Well maybe it is just the manual, but in my correspondence with him, it looked like the MUTCD was part of his address or the name of his organization. I thought it a little strange because I too would have assumed that the letters simply stood for the book and it seemed odd to think that the designation also stood for the organization that writes the book.
But in any case, he told me about that other reference that I linked called NCHRP REPORT 470 about passive crossings. I have not looked at it recently, but there is some interesting information in there as I recall.
It is this: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_470-a.pdf
Cotton Belt MP1041. I don’t know where all this applies but it seems very common on many roads that do not have active protection … an advance yellow warning is in place! Yes/No? Why was it installed where it was?
Two notes: There was an extensive discussion on this subject several years ago, and one of the things in it was a crossing that had a permanent yellow flashing traffic light 'in advance' warning not that a train was coming, but that the crossing was ahead. It's in that sense that the reflectorized yellow 'advance warning' signs are so useful
But note that this means that the physical crossing is up ahead, not that there might be a train and people will be expected to yield there, etc. -- in other words, not the functional equivalent of a yellow approach signal.
It would make sense to teach it that way, if the sign were given that explicit meaning, adding the words "Be prepared to stop" perhaps. But I'm not sure that can be done in a prescriptive manner for all crossings, as for any signaled or gated crossing there is no 'approach restriction' until the lights, gates and horns are actuated. What I've always thought should happen is that a couple of alternating yellow lights be provided at the 'approach' sign, similar to the alternating lights that trigger when 'timed red' will catch drivers going the speed limit on some modern highways. These might go on appropriately before the crossing formally lights up and gates start down, as more than just the sort of 'approach warning' by analogy a distant signal would provide.
Here's another approach (no pun intended) --this company's LED-enhanced signs could easily provide active light or 'chase' or pattern animation. They note these are 'solar powered with radar detection unit' so are essentially autonomous -- for crossings, a little additional radio and logic could be required, but the things could still be 'self-powered' and autonomous...
They also have a clever idea that 'by itself' is in need of a better real-world use at actual crossings, as shown, and also in need of the right sort of driving populace to take proper note of it there:
http://test.lightguardsystems.com/testing/traxalert-safer-highway-railroad-grade-crossings/
I bring this up because it represents a highly useful method of signaling approach to a railroad crossing, several hundred feet ahead, in conjunction with the fixed signs/lights. I'm not sure, in fact, why they haven't thought of 'marquee' alternating their lights to show both the direction and speed of the train that is coming, or perhaps brightening/flashing if a vehicle speed of approach (determined by inductive loops back in the dinosaur age, but could be cameras with machine vision today) is 'too high'.
Now, on the other hand, what the crossing pavement lights CAN do -- I saw this done in multiple colors of in-pavement reflectors in Australia, in the late 1970s, and it was truly eye-opening in its promise and capabilities -- is mark out very clearly where the 'clearance line' of all tracks is, in order to prevent people from mistaking the railroad for where they need to turn, or trying to get across where they can't make it.
[EDIT: Firelock76 just mentioned a video in the 'we hit a car today' thread. In the introduction of this thread is a brief glimpse (0:07-0:09) of a fascinating approach -- I honestly don't know whether to be impressed or amused by it -- which provides a light that goes OUT when a train is present. Makes sense because it really, absolutely, positively fails safe; it also makes sense from a railroad-rules perspective because light out = most restrictive indication. Makes very little sense if someone bombs up to the crossing without seeing all the words on the sign ... or ASSumes that all instrumented crossings show red lights to mean 'stop for the train'...]
Euclidmy impression was that MUTCD referred to the organization that produces the manual as well as to the manual itself. The person I conversed with worked at the MUTCD.
He must be awful small or awful thin.
Here is the official history of the MUTCD, including the agencies responsible for publishing the first one in the '30s. The agency responsible for the current version is FHWA.
EDIT: There is an interdisciplinary committee actually tasked with modifications to the MUTCD -- the NCUTCD, "National Committee on Uniform Traffic Control Devices." Here is their home page.
tree68 BaltACD School busses in the dark are not readily recognizable as school busses. Buses here now have a fair amount of yellow reflective tape in specific locations - doesn't do much for the front, but the sides and rear are much more visible. Most of our buses also have an illuminated "School Bus" sign front and rear.
BaltACD School busses in the dark are not readily recognizable as school busses.
Buses here now have a fair amount of yellow reflective tape in specific locations - doesn't do much for the front, but the sides and rear are much more visible. Most of our buses also have an illuminated "School Bus" sign front and rear.
Ours also have a lot of reflectivity on the rear - front not so much - with the busses being out before sunrise on high traffic two lane roads it can get dicey.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDSchool busses in the dark are not readily recognizable as school busses.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Deggesty tree68 Overmod Based on my observations of NY school buses, the driver turns on the amber flashers, usually prior to the planned stop. This transitions to the red flashers when the door is opened. If the amber flashers are not turned on, the reds will not come on. I have noticed the same sequence here--after the amber flashers are on, and the bus has stopped the red flashers come on, whether it is for a railroad crossing or it is to take on or discharge pasengers.
tree68 Overmod Based on my observations of NY school buses, the driver turns on the amber flashers, usually prior to the planned stop. This transitions to the red flashers when the door is opened. If the amber flashers are not turned on, the reds will not come on.
Overmod
Based on my observations of NY school buses, the driver turns on the amber flashers, usually prior to the planned stop. This transitions to the red flashers when the door is opened.
If the amber flashers are not turned on, the reds will not come on.
I have noticed the same sequence here--after the amber flashers are on, and the bus has stopped the red flashers come on, whether it is for a railroad crossing or it is to take on or discharge pasengers.
School busses in the dark are not readily recognizable as school busses. Other drivers cannot see the recognizable Yellow, especially drivers in the opposing direction who are partially 'overwhelmed' by the headlights of the bus and may not easily see the flashing red lights or the outrigger stop signs.
tree68 Overmod The situation would be different, of course, if the bus triggered its red lights and folding stop signs when it stopped at the crossing. Based on my observations of NY school buses, the driver turns on the amber flashers, usually prior to the planned stop. This transitions to the red flashers when the door is opened. If the amber flashers are not turned on, the reds will not come on.
Overmod The situation would be different, of course, if the bus triggered its red lights and folding stop signs when it stopped at the crossing.
Johnny
Overmodhe situation would be different, of course, if the bus triggered its red lights and folding stop signs when it stopped at the crossing. I have never seen that done, however, and I suspect any driver that tried it might produce far more complaints than the incremental "safety" would warrant. It would also, noncoincidentally, 'breed more contempt' for early actuation of the school-bus stop lights over time. Now, by 'run the stop sign' do you mean the folding stop signs on the bus?
When a school bus stops at a grade crossing in Illinois (THEY ARE REQUIRED TO STOP AT ALL CROSSINGS, whether flashing lights, gate down or not) the red lights and the fold out stop sign are both activated. On a 4 lane, all cars behind stop and those in a adjacent lane are also required to and usually do.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
OvermodThe situation would be different, of course, if the bus triggered its red lights and folding stop signs when it stopped at the crossing.
I will look for some references to my point about the MUTCD worry about diluting the authority of stop signs by applying them to grade crossings. My direct knowledge of that comes from many phone and email conversations with a contact person at the MUTCD. We discussed questions I had about grade crossings, crosswalks, and trail crossings.
Incidentally, my impression was that MUTCD referred to the organization that produces the manual as well as to the manual itself. The person I conversed with worked at the MUTCD.
Someone -- I think it was BaltACD -- brought up an Ohio study with reflectors on crossbuck signs. Julie at ORDC was kind enough to send a link to the PDF version:
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/32000/32300/32364/14612-FR.pdf
Her comment, succinctly, was that the results were 'not statistically significant'.
Please read this through and comment on what might be done differently for better effect, if you think the idea may have merit that way.
zugmannHappen to have any source for this? MUTCD 2009 edition has all sorts of guidelines for using stop and yield signs with passive crossings.
He doesn't mean the MUTCD, of course, which is just the manual, and he likely doesn't mean all the current 'editors' or contributors to that manual necessarily have that opinion. I have seen studies that said exactly what he did, although I have no current source for them (they were likely developed somewhere within FHWA, or 'academically related' to a federal highway safety program.) and they do note that stop signs should only be used when it really, really is necessary for everyone to come to a full stop. (Which appears to be the premise that some posters have about what everyone should do at any unsignaled crossing...)
I do look forward to seeing the specific reference(s) Euclid will provide.
EuclidBecause there is less compliance with stop signs at grade crossings, the MUTCD worries that using stop signs at grade crossings will degrade the overall compliance with stop signs, and thus reduce stop sign compliance at road intersections.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part8/part8b.htm
From the above link (although there was no reasonging behind it, so I won't assume what they are thinking):
Guidance: 06 The use of STOP signs at passive grade crossings should be limited to unusual conditions where requiring all highway vehicles to make a full stop is deemed essential by an engineering study. Among the factors that should be considered in the engineering study are the line of sight to approaching rail traffic (giving due consideration to seasonal crops or vegetation beyond both the highway and railroad or LRT rights-of-ways), the number of tracks, the speeds of trains or LRT equipment and highway vehicles, and the crash history at the grade crossing.
schlimmSchool buses are required to come to a complete stop at all RR crossings, even on busy highways. They obey the law and the following cars, even in other lanes of traffic also stop. They do not just run the stop sign and strike or side swipe the halted bus.
Can you rephrase this slightly, as it appears to be conflating two different types of signage and action into one?
Getting school buses to stop at railroad crossings is easy to mandate, and easy to enforce. (Of course, it far from stops fatal school-bus accidents on crossings, but as you say it's a necessary first step.) Now that we have onboard cameras, it's a simple process from 'reading the tape' to firing any driver that doesn't go through the whole full-stop-and-open-door rigmarole.
The problem comes up fairly rapidly, though, that both the stop and the process of opening and closing the door become routine, and the driver starts zoning out while going through the motions. It might be interesting to see just how many times a train that would otherwise not be detected is seen in time, and the driver stays stopped to prevent catastrophe, vs. the near misses when a driver continues on after the check, or the disasters when they continue on but not quite far enough to get the back of the bus off the track.
You must never have lived in New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Louisiana, or California, as in all those states people routinely pass buses or commercial vehicles on multiple-lane crossings. It's common-sense understood that those vehicles that are subject to the law have to stop for reasons completely inapplicable to automobiles (mostly, when the crossing laws were passed, related to stalling on the crossing and flooding out, or high-centering, or having the transmission not go into proper gear to proceed, or being so long as to take an extended time to traverse the active part of the crossing or multiple tracks). In fact there have been discussions of additional danger to other lanes of traffic when drivers following a bus or fuel truck or whatever suddenly have to change lanes, or get impatient and whip over.
The situation would be different, of course, if the bus triggered its red lights and folding stop signs when it stopped at the crossing. I have never seen that done, however, and I suspect any driver that tried it might produce far more complaints than the incremental "safety" would warrant. It would also, noncoincidentally, 'breed more contempt' for early actuation of the school-bus stop lights over time.
Now, by 'run the stop sign' do you mean the folding stop signs on the bus? Or in some states are the lights automatically interlocked with the door -- they obviously can't be just with the brake -- so that they suddenly come on in people's faces when the driver opens the door for the brief look and listen? That would be a disaster and a half for a very wide variety of reasons, with no practical safety benefit, or lesson on enforcement, at all.
Common carrier buses also stop at railroad crossings--by law.
That school buses stop for railroad crossings is fairly common knowledge, and if they're on a two lane road, the cars behind them have little choice but to stop as well. Even kids know the bus driver is going to stop, open the door, look, then proceed.
I've seen plenty of cars pass a bus stopped at a crossing on a four lane road.
Of course, you'd think that everyone would also know that nobody - nobody - can pass a stopped school bus with the lights flashing, but I'm willing to bet that every single school bus driver has plenty of stories about folks who have done just that, and possibly some close calls where kids were almost hit as a result.
schlimmWhy not try instead of adopting the typical defeatist attitude of "nothing will work"?
Pretty much anything will work for a while, until drivers discover that a crossing is little used and there's no real reason to stop. I used to go over a certain (gated) crossing twice a day. I could go a month or better and never see a train. As far as John Q. Public is concerned, the line could be abandoned.
There is a stop sign across from my house. That road comes in at a slight angle (to be made 90 degrees this summer), and it's not at all uncommon for people to roll right through the stop sign (which has been there for the nearly 40 years I've lived here, and more) while looking over their shoulder for cars on the intersecting road. Even "totally paused" doesn't come close - they roll right through.
It's the locals, not the out-of-towners, who are the problem.
Everything works, for a while.
The new intersection across from my house will include curbing. I'm waiting to see the look on the face of the first person who cruises over the old course, looking over their shoulder, as they nail the curb...
It's not defeatist - it's looking at the reality of human nature. I'm willing to bet that people try to drive around four-quadrant gates, too...
One of the MUTCD concerns with 'yield signs at crossings' (and I think it is a correct concern) is that drivers expect a yield sign to mean "yield to vehicular traffic" (since it is a rules-of-the-road traffic sign) and if they don't see any road traffic proceed to beat any train. If there is a 'correct' approach it would be for MUTCD to develop a specific 'yield to train' sign, put that in the driver manuals, etc., and then to develop some national program (perhaps structured after MADD) that gets enforcement efforts going.
The same is true, mutatis mutandis, for "stop" signs at crossings. This might involve either color or a distinctive 'border' around an iconic 'stop' sign.
If there is a problem 'enforcing stop signs', put up cameras at the crossings with 'special' stop signs and be rigorous in sending tickets to drivers that run them and then following up with consequences.
It's pretty well established that 'putting crossbucks in driver manuals to teach that it means the same as a yield sign' is a failure. And rightly so: the crossbucks mark a crossing location, and only indirectly (and imperfectly) serve as a control device. Semantically, there should be red on the sign to enforce full stop before proceeding if there is any desire to achieve that.
One unfortunate thing that was done in MUTCD was to use 'yellow' for advisory speed restrictions. You, me, and the fellow behind the tree treat these things not as restrictions, but recommendations -- in large part because they are enforced that way. I would personally not want to see those strictly enforced, either, so in a sense "yellow is out" as a color to be applied to crossing signage to get people to slow down rigorously.
The idea with the 'light cannon' was well-meant, but its actual operation is so fraught with problems, and the range of circumstances where its functionality would be impaired or negative ("deer in the headlights" being very unfunny in context) so great, as to make it a poor alternative to the rather amazing light show already provided by headlight and ditch lights. I proposed years ago (and this was actually based on observations about 'blink' in terminals for critical systems in ITU group R10!) that instead of alternating the ditch lights, it would be better to alternately dim them, which would keep the light intensity higher while continuing the unusual pulse to get people's attention.
For the mad scientists, I do have a sort of alternative to Euclid's cannon that might be used. I don't know if everyone is familiar with the version of "Mars light functionality" used on some KCS locomotives, which is a bit similar to the lights put on early UP and C&NW streamliners except rotating on a horizontal rather than vertical access, sweeping a focused searchlight beam repeatedly over a much wider range of vision than the head and ditch lights brightly illuminate. It would be comparatively easy to adapt such a light to the equivalent of a pan/tilt head, and then focus its beam and modulate it (and perhaps color-cycle LEDs in it) all under crew control. This is an expanded version of the 'optical horn' idea first used to my knowledge by Volvo. The difference here is that, instead of being a brute-force approach, it permits more specific, and perhaps more recognizable, alerting to potential or actual trespassers.
Since we evidently no longer care about the beautiful daughters, I would like to point out that the monkey idea is all wet -- it does not work if the window is up, for example, unless the monkey also carries an emergency glass hammer, and this poses among other things a potential diversion problem. The answer is so simple I'm amazed one of you junior Edisons didn't think of it: the CO2 gun shoots aimed glue-and-elastomer loogies loaded with purple dye that glows under UV light, which the police are then trained to recognize. Or fast-deploying stickers with the kind of glue folks like towing companies use for those 'you're illegally parked here' things, printed on nifty Tedlar film so you can't scrape or cut them off with normal tools. I leave it up to y'all to figure out wording and graphics for these, or whether you care if the stickers attach to 'idots' or trespassers as well as vehicles.
tree68Placing stop signs at crossings where such a stop might actually make things more dangerous isn't common. Unless it's a very busy crossing (in which case it will likely have at least lights) the locals will, indeed probably just ignore it, or maybe "totally pause..."
School buses are required to come to a complete stop at all RR crossings, even on busy highways. They obey the law and the following cars, even in other lanes of traffic also stop. They do not just run the stop sign and strike or side swipe the halted bus. Why not try instead of adopting the typical defeatist attitude of "nothing will work"?
Yield signs are the default sign to add to crossbucks. In my opinion, the reasoning used to justify it is faulty. The reasoning is that many drivers believe that the crossbuck simply marks the location of a grade crossing, but do not know that the crossbuck means the same as a yield sign. So the MUTCD concludes that such drivers do not know what action is expected of them at passive grade crossings. So they add yield signs to the crossbucks to inform drivers that they must yield.
I believe that such drivers intuitively know that they must yield to trains at grade crossings even if they do not know that crossbucks mean the same as a yield sign. I believe that yield signs added to crossbucks may actually reduce driver wariness, because yield signs are perceived as a compromise with stop signs, and therefore imply a relatively smaller danger.
The traffic authorities also add stop signs to crossbucks, but more factors go into the decision. There is less compliance with stop signs at grade crossings than there is at other locations. I assume that this is because drivers easily rationalize that the sign means stop for trains, while understanding the basic premise that they are expected to use their own discretion in yielding to trains depending on how close the train is and how fast it is traveling.
So drivers conclude that if they see no train approaching, they don’t have to stop. What would be the point of stopping with no train approaching? With stop signs at road intersections, driver are habituated to believe that a stop is expected regardless of traffic conditions.
Because there is less compliance with stop signs at grade crossings, the MUTCD worries that using stop signs at grade crossings will degrade the overall compliance with stop signs, and thus reduce stop sign compliance at road intersections.
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