I just cross-checked my O&W map against a contemporary Erie map, Metro-North does run on the old Erie route, and what you say Mike is certainly plausible, it would have provided a good feed into the Metro-North or New Jersey Transit system, but as I said earlier it would have required an ability for prediction beyond anyone's ability at the time. That's assuming enough potential riders from the Sullivan County area, but I don't know what that situation's like, maybe you know better than I do. The only times I've been up that way were back in the 90's on the C&O 614 excursions. It WAS a nice ride, by the way!
I try to remember that back in 1957 when the O&W was on the ropes all it's creditors were screaming for their money and wanted it by hook or by crook. Abandonment and selling off the 'roads assets were the only way they were going to get it. The same thing nearly happened to the Susquehanna back in 1980 except the Susie-Q was lucky, they had Walter Rich and the Deleware-Otsego System waiting in the wings who thought they could do something with the Susquehanna. The O&W had no such "angel," nobody wanted it.
Maybe 100 miles too far or 100 years too soon.
- Paul North.
CandOforprogress2 The Weehawken terminal was abandoned by Perlman in his war on NYC Passenger Trains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weehawken_Terminal
The Weehawken terminal was abandoned by Perlman in his war on NYC Passenger Trains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weehawken_Terminal
Well, don't be too hard on ol' Al, passenger trains, especially commuter trains were a BIG drag on the company's profitability at that time. Agencies like Metro-North and New Jersey Transit were far in the future and unthought of at the time.
It's ironic, but the NYC put out a promotional film in the late 50's called "The Big Train" where Big Al puts in an appearance speaking directly to the audience. I say ironic because he's in what appears to be the lounge car of a passenger train which he wanted so dearly to eliminate!
Firelock76 I just cross-checked my O&W map against a contemporary Erie map, Metro-North does run on the old Erie route, and what you say Mike is certainly plausible, it would have provided a good feed into the Metro-North or New Jersey Transit system, but as I said earlier it would have required an ability for prediction beyond anyone's ability at the time. ...
I just cross-checked my O&W map against a contemporary Erie map, Metro-North does run on the old Erie route, and what you say Mike is certainly plausible, it would have provided a good feed into the Metro-North or New Jersey Transit system, but as I said earlier it would have required an ability for prediction beyond anyone's ability at the time. ...
I don't think many public agencies were contemplating buying abandoned railroads in the 50s for possible commuter lines. My comments were based on the OP's query of what if the O&W had hung on longer. Metro North didn't come in until the 80s, so the O&W would have had to hang on longer than that. I don't think MN had a crystal ball when they aquired the Maybrook remnant; I think they just wanted to railbank it for potential use if it ever reached the point of usefulness. They also bought the short remnant of the Harlem Division north of Dover Plains, and it was many years before they established service on that extension.
I'm sure all us older folks think wistfully of rail lines we still re-run in our minds and wish were still here. In many cases, what we're "remembering" is an earlier America that was overtaken 100 years ago already, when the internal-combustion engine was applied to the paved road.
Today, we'll be doing well if the survivors can manage a decent living -- more than the interest off a checking account that used to be the horrible example of DPM, at TRAINS -- from the fairly narrow opportunities for rail that are still available in post-industrial America.
O&W, my aching posterior! How about the Rock Island, M&StL, Erie, NKP and other fallen and largely vanished flags that make an obsolete old heart ache?
Indeed DakatoFred! Too much lost from my point of view. Since this is a "what if" topic what if the railroads and all their trackage existed today the way they were in, say, 1948, but with today's modern conveniences and work rules? Does the O&W shutdown once again after a week of deliberation...do we pull up the Milwaukee road to the West, is the Rock Island doomed or do they thrive. Railroads are definitely efficient and "green".and would fit nicely into favour with the public. Just think how many trucks would be off the highway systems ...a boon just in safety and cost to the taxpayer. The big guys, like UP, could still do "wholesale transportation" ...the O&W could be a small short line operator, Erie a specialist, Nickel Plate a fast service route...I still maintain that too much was given up.
There has been talk of reviving Weehawken- Havastraw commuter service, but the money has not been forthcoming, yet.
In reply to miningman, the railroad map in 1948 already included a fair amount of dead wood that had already lost its reason for existence. The changes that came after de-reg would probably have occurred much earlier if de-reg came earlier than it did. Would railroading be better off today if the NYO&W or CGW continued to barely exist?
Point to consider, the Rock Island as an operating entity may have ceased to exist in 1980 but a sizable percentage of its main lines continue to operate.
Miningman Indeed DakatoFred! Too much lost from my point of view. Since this is a "what if" topic what if the railroads and all their trackage existed today the way they were in, say, 1948, but with today's modern conveniences and work rules? Does the O&W shutdown once again after a week of deliberation...do we pull up the Milwaukee road to the West, is the Rock Island doomed or do they thrive. Railroads are definitely efficient and "green".and would fit nicely into favour with the public. Just think how many trucks would be off the highway systems ...a boon just in safety and cost to the taxpayer. The big guys, like UP, could still do "wholesale transportation" ...the O&W could be a small short line operator, Erie a specialist, Nickel Plate a fast service route...I still maintain that too much was given up.
Maybe their value today would have been to provide freight-free RoWs for HrSR and HSP passenger services, at least those lines that connected metro areas.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Miningman. Since this is a "what if" topic what if the railroads and all their trackage existed today the way they were in, say, 1948,
As long as we're wishing: I wish Harry Truman were still President.
Too much fun guys...Trunman was one of your greats! His whistle stops along the lines won him the election.
Luv that clip Wanswheel.
Schlimm- High speed passenger trains would be a great thing...one of your presidential candidates has talked about it and lamented how far behind the US was in terms of service and usage. Interesting.
schlimmMaybe their value today would have been to provide freight-free RoWs for HrSR and HSP passenger services, at least those lines that connected metro areas.
The West Shore, however redundant, might have allowed much of the NYC "Water Level Route" to be used for HSR. To a certain extent - along the Hudson - it's kind of that way now. Portions of the West Shore in the Mohawk Valley are now a trail...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Sing to Billy Joel's "We didn't light the fire"
Harry Truman
Doris Day
Red China
Johnny Ray
South Pacific
Walter Winchell
Joe DiMaggio
T1's
J3a"s
New York Central
PA's
Pennsylvannia
Nickel Plate
Erie Rail...Road
That was a fun clip Wanswheel, thanks for posting it!
There's a Lucius Beebe story connected with that election...
One of Beebe's cafe society friends commented "If Dewey gets elected it'll set the country back fifty years!"
Lucuis fixed him with a steely gaze and said "And just WHAT was wrong with 1898?"
NKP guy Miningman As long as we're wishing: I wish Harry Truman were still President.
Miningman
Let's wish the world steel industry was still in the US; let's wish the rubber industry still built tires in the US, let's wish the Rust Belt was belching out polution and products; let's wish the worlds auto industry was centered around Chrysler, Ford and GM -
The past is the past for a reason! It has already happended and we have moved on - there is no way to move backward - though many politicians think it is possible - just as possible as putting toothpaste back into the tube through it's dispensing end.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Yeah.... but once Conrail appeared, they probably would have abandoned it. I can't see NYO&W lasting that long no matter what happened, short of the US or New York state government deciding to operate it. And at that point, the only way Conrail would be operating it is under contract.
You know, it's kind of remarkable the long-dead "Old and Weary" still generates this much interest. I never thought this thread would go to two pages and 47 posts.
NYO&W’s demise was similar to Elvis Presley’s (“good career move”).
NYO&W had filed for bankruptcy prior to WW2, Chapter 77 proceedings were usually long, drawn-out affairs. The opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway was more like the final nail in the coffin for O&W and probably didn't have that much effect on its traffic.
daveklepper There has been talk of reviving Weehawken- Havastraw commuter service, but the money has not been forthcoming, yet.
The tunnel has been appropriated by the light rail, and the Weehawken yards area have largely been redeveloped. It would seem that a connection to Hoboken would be more do-able.
Well, you can forget about any commuter traffic down the old West Shore, now it's CSX's River Subdivision, and there's now way CSX is going to allow commuter trains on it's lines. They barely tolerate Amtrak.
The only close alternative would be the old Erie Northern Branch. There's been talk and talk and talk and talk about rehabbing it for light rail, but the NIMBY's from Tenafly NJ and points north (it used to run as far as Nyack, now stops at the NJ/NY border) threw fits over the proposal. It may run from Englewood to Hoboken if it ever gets built.
www.northernbranchcorridor.com
Check it out.
Commuters down the west side of the Hudson. Can't see it happening, even though it probably should.
On the other hand, with business being WAY down, maybe, just maybe, CSX would entertain the idea if there was enough money thrown at them to make it worth their while. It'd be a nice ride, at any rate.
Firelock76You know, it's kind of remarkable the long-dead "Old and Weary" still generates this much interest. I never thought this thread would go to two pages and 47 posts.
I formerly used to travel on NY Route 17, a.k.a. "Future I-86," quite regularly. In several neighborhoods along the route the highway is on a huge embankment separating neighborhoods. And this was in a very rural community. Only years later I learned that these huge fills were the railroad beds of the NYO&W that NY State had acquired after its bankruptcy to build Route 17.
That, and the strange embankment that runs to one of the rest area buildings that has three rails embedded in it like barracade posts. I seem to remember this rest area has a river behind it, and to the west an abandoned NYO&W railroad bridge crosses the river.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_17#Elmira_to_Harriman
From MP 87 to 101 seems to be the portion that followed the NYO&W.
Several other portions in the same segment, and in the . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_17#Pennsylvania_to_Elmira
segment, follow the former Erie RR.
A portion of 17/86 at Hancock (west of Cadosia) is built on the ROW of the O&W Scranton Branch, before it turned south to cross the west branch of the Delaware River and the Erie Railroad.
The general location of the Hawk's Mountain tunnel (east of Cadosia) can be seen from the highway, if you know where to look on the south side of the road. Both ends of the tunnel are collapsed/filled.
Firelock76 I don't see HOW it could have lasted another 19 years. Discounting the trackage rights the O&W had on the New York Central's West Shore line to Weehawken NJ what tree68 said was correct, the O&W literally went from nowhere to nowhere, missing every major city in New York State, complicated story there. When the anthracite business started to dry up it really was all over but the shouting. They tried to make it as a bridge line but there was little luck there. As Don Ball said, "The O&W was a road that could not live." If you're interested in the O&W there was a fine book on the 'road published in 1959 by William F. Helmer called "O&W (The long life and slow death of the New York, Ontario & Western Railway)" Fascinating book that tells the whole story. I got mine from a rail hobby shop in Tappan, NY a few years ago. If you're interested here's the website: www.oldandwearycarshop.com He had several copies in stock at the time, he may still have some if you're interested. At any rate he's a good source for all things "O&W." The "Old and Weary" still has quite a few fans, by the way.
I don't see HOW it could have lasted another 19 years.
Discounting the trackage rights the O&W had on the New York Central's West Shore line to Weehawken NJ what tree68 said was correct, the O&W literally went from nowhere to nowhere, missing every major city in New York State, complicated story there. When the anthracite business started to dry up it really was all over but the shouting. They tried to make it as a bridge line but there was little luck there. As Don Ball said, "The O&W was a road that could not live."
If you're interested in the O&W there was a fine book on the 'road published in 1959 by William F. Helmer called "O&W (The long life and slow death of the New York, Ontario & Western Railway)" Fascinating book that tells the whole story.
I got mine from a rail hobby shop in Tappan, NY a few years ago. If you're interested here's the website: www.oldandwearycarshop.com
He had several copies in stock at the time, he may still have some if you're interested. At any rate he's a good source for all things "O&W."
The "Old and Weary" still has quite a few fans, by the way.
Yesterday, the wife and I (at her suggestion no less) stopped by the hobby shop in Des Moines. They had a large number of books on consignment. While looking through them I came across a copy of this book. It, and a few other gems I found, now reside in my library.
Jeff
Jeff, that's great! I'm sure you'll enjoy it as much as I do mine.
Can't imagine how a book about a New York regional railroad found it's way out to Iowa, but then stranger things have happened.
Anyway, that's what Lady Firestorm and I call "The Thrill Of The Hunt."
CSSHEGEWISCHNYO&W had filed for bankruptcy prior to WW2, Chapter 77 proceedings were usually long, drawn-out affairs. The opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway was more like the final nail in the coffin for O&W and probably didn't have that much effect on its traffic.
http://openjurist.org/215/f2d/63/zirn-v-hanover-bank
was mainly about repossession of equipment pursuant to an equipment trust, footnote 7 presaged what was coming (the 'double-negatives' make it a little hard to comprehend):
"7 Although not the basis of our decision, we note the following in passing: (1) That the railroad is still operating goes to show that the orders did not authorize abandonment. (2) The bankruptcy-trustee stated that, if deprived of the diesel-electric locomotives, he can continue to operate by leasing steam locomotives.
We are not to be understood as indicating that, considering this railroad's prolonged grave financial condition and the failure to work out a reorganization plan, the court below should not soon direct the bankruptcy trustee to seek I.C.C. approval of abandonment of operation. Cf. Bankers Trust Co. v. Gebhart, 2 Cir., 195 F.2d 238, 240."
I was amused by this line; "The bankruptcy-trustee stated that, if deprived of the diesel-electric locomotives, he can continue to operate by leasing steam locomotives."
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