Mike, in case anybody missed it the first time...
MidlandMike I don't know if you could consider it an architectural gem, but the NYO&W Middletown station is historic. It had some fire damage to the north end of the station about 10 years ago. A health clinic is trying to get a grant to rehab it.
I don't know if you could consider it an architectural gem, but the NYO&W Middletown station is historic. It had some fire damage to the north end of the station about 10 years ago. A health clinic is trying to get a grant to rehab it.
Excerpt from Engineering News, December 29, 1892
Railway Station at Middletown, N.Y.
The elevation and plan here given show the railway station now under construction at Middletown, N.Y. by the New York, Ontario & Western R.R. Co. from the plans of Mr. Bradford L. Gilbert of New York.
The building is 174 ft. long and 44 ft. wide with a rear extension of 30 ft. in length for kitchen, an extensive awning, an independent express and trainmen's room at the north end and a port-cochere. On the first floor are the general waiting room, woman's waiting room, restaurant, ticket office, toilet-room and other rooms for baggage and trainmen. The general waiting room is 30 x 30 ft. and both this and the woman's room are finished with a red oak wainscoting 12 ft. high; all above this and the ceiling is finished in white spruce. The floors in these two rooms are made of red oak and all other floors of Georgia pine. The restaurant is 90 ft. long by 30 ft. wide with news and cigar stands. There are open fires in this and in the waiting rooms in addition to the regular steam heating appliances.
The second floor is devoted to the railway offices including rooms for the chief and assistant engineers, superintendent of motive power, train despatcher, roadmaster and various clerks and draftsmen. All these rooms are well lighted and heated and in both the second and third stories fire proof vaults of brick and iron are provided for the storage of valuable records.
http://www.nps.gov/nr/feature/places/14000129.htm
The O&W Middletown station/headquarters is still there, but Google Earth shows the damage to the north tower from a fire. Two miles of former O&W track are still there from the NS/MNRR connection to the M&NJ yard in Middletown.
The O & W station and I believe it was the corporate headquarters did exist in Middletown, N.Y. in 1995 when I was last there. There was active Conrail track alongside it, not sure how long that line was or what it served but I would see trains on it.
Leads me to wonder if there was any connection between the New Yorkers doing this and the Massachusetts people refusing connections for the Hampden Railroad, another 'key' piece of strategy shut down essentially by political action at around this time.
Considering the date, I'm sure that anti-trust concerns were a major reason for the attempt of NYC&HR to purchase an interest in NYO&W to be denied.
Miningman So what stopped the NYC from purchasing the O&W?
So what stopped the NYC from purchasing the O&W?
Thanks for asking, I wondered what, too. NY Public Service Commission.
Snippets remain. I believe some O&W track may still be active in Oswego and Rome, NY.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Fascinating Wanswheel!...So what stopped the NYC from purchasing the O&W? Let's suppose for a moment that purchase actually occurred...it may have been abandoned still as a branch but likely it survives in some form to Penn Centrail, maybe even Conrail but likely no further. It's all very interesting in any regard.
54light15When I was first hired as a boiler inspector for the Hartford Steam Boiler Inspection and Insurance Company in 1991, part of my territory was Sullivan county and you could see bits of roadbed of the O & W almost anywhere. The guy training me would show me some of it. I finally asked him, "If the railroad still existed, would you use it?" He said "No, I would drive." I had to tell him to give it a rest with the nostalgia. Regarding the "Borscht Belt" and its resulting decline in passenger traffic, a guy in that area said that they invented air conditoning and that was the end of the Catskills. Naturally Route 17 and later the Thruway didn't help much. . . . [snipped - PDN]
Regarding the "Borscht Belt" and its resulting decline in passenger traffic, a guy in that area said that they invented air conditoning and that was the end of the Catskills. Naturally Route 17 and later the Thruway didn't help much. . . . [snipped - PDN]
"In view of the necessity of readily financing purchases of equipment at a time when the development of the transportation art is providing new forms of equipment, particularly in the passenger field, of which, in interests of efficiency and economy, the carriers should be able to avail themselves, and because after a depression the carriers are usually required to make large expenditures for equipment in order to accommodate the improved traffic, your committee is of the opinion that any doubt should be removed with reference to the validity of the equipment trust as a means of financing equipment purchases."
That's a heckuva 'run-on' sentence, too !
- Paul North.
New York Central intended to buy NYO&W in 1911.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9905EEDB1E31E233A2575BC0A9649D946096D6CF
Paul3 About the only hope that the NYO&W had was a merger with the New Haven. This was kicked around by both railroads for a while, but the NH eventually saw that the future of the O&W was too bleak to survive. Heck, their own wasn't much better (declaring bankruptcy in 1961). But it is interesting to think of the O&W merged with the NH back in, say, the 1920's or pre-WWI back when the NH had a lot money and power. In fact, I have an old "NYNH&H Operated & Controlled Lines" map showing the NYO&W as part of the NH system. Paul A. Cutler III
About the only hope that the NYO&W had was a merger with the New Haven. This was kicked around by both railroads for a while, but the NH eventually saw that the future of the O&W was too bleak to survive. Heck, their own wasn't much better (declaring bankruptcy in 1961). But it is interesting to think of the O&W merged with the NH back in, say, the 1920's or pre-WWI back when the NH had a lot money and power. In fact, I have an old "NYNH&H Operated & Controlled Lines" map showing the NYO&W as part of the NH system.
Paul A. Cutler III
1991 National Park Service study of DL&W line from Scranton to Slateford Junction
https://archive.org/stream/historicresource00clem#page/n1/mode/2up
When I was first hired as a boiler inspector for the Hartford Steam Boiler Inspection and Insurance Company in 1991, part of my territory was Sullivan county and you could see bits of roadbed of the O & W almost anywhere. The guy training me would show me some of it. I finally asked him, "If the railroad still existed, would you use it?" He said "No, I would drive." I had to tell him to give it a rest with the nostalgia.
Regarding the "Borscht Belt" and its resulting decline in passenger traffic, a guy in that area said that they invented air conditoning and that was the end of the Catskills. Naturally Route 17 and later the Thruway didn't help much. There were still abandoned resort complexes here and there in 1991-1995 when I worked in that area. Some were made into prison halfway houses and so forth. One in Loch Sheldrake became a retreat for the Maharishi, the guy the Beatles hung out with. The boiler room in Brown's Hotel, (affiliated with Jerry Lewis) was the absolute worst I have ever seen. They shut down shortly after.
The OW was noted for extremely sharp curves, and diesels aided in slowing wheel wear greatly. A return to steam would have been disasterous.
The leased steam option is amusing, if only for its effect on what must have been deferred-maintenance track on which the diesels would have been trodding much more easily.
CSSHEGEWISCHNYO&W had filed for bankruptcy prior to WW2, Chapter 77 proceedings were usually long, drawn-out affairs. The opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway was more like the final nail in the coffin for O&W and probably didn't have that much effect on its traffic.
http://openjurist.org/215/f2d/63/zirn-v-hanover-bank
was mainly about repossession of equipment pursuant to an equipment trust, footnote 7 presaged what was coming (the 'double-negatives' make it a little hard to comprehend):
"7 Although not the basis of our decision, we note the following in passing: (1) That the railroad is still operating goes to show that the orders did not authorize abandonment. (2) The bankruptcy-trustee stated that, if deprived of the diesel-electric locomotives, he can continue to operate by leasing steam locomotives.
We are not to be understood as indicating that, considering this railroad's prolonged grave financial condition and the failure to work out a reorganization plan, the court below should not soon direct the bankruptcy trustee to seek I.C.C. approval of abandonment of operation. Cf. Bankers Trust Co. v. Gebhart, 2 Cir., 195 F.2d 238, 240."
I was amused by this line; "The bankruptcy-trustee stated that, if deprived of the diesel-electric locomotives, he can continue to operate by leasing steam locomotives."
Jeff, that's great! I'm sure you'll enjoy it as much as I do mine.
Can't imagine how a book about a New York regional railroad found it's way out to Iowa, but then stranger things have happened.
Anyway, that's what Lady Firestorm and I call "The Thrill Of The Hunt."
Firelock76 I don't see HOW it could have lasted another 19 years. Discounting the trackage rights the O&W had on the New York Central's West Shore line to Weehawken NJ what tree68 said was correct, the O&W literally went from nowhere to nowhere, missing every major city in New York State, complicated story there. When the anthracite business started to dry up it really was all over but the shouting. They tried to make it as a bridge line but there was little luck there. As Don Ball said, "The O&W was a road that could not live." If you're interested in the O&W there was a fine book on the 'road published in 1959 by William F. Helmer called "O&W (The long life and slow death of the New York, Ontario & Western Railway)" Fascinating book that tells the whole story. I got mine from a rail hobby shop in Tappan, NY a few years ago. If you're interested here's the website: www.oldandwearycarshop.com He had several copies in stock at the time, he may still have some if you're interested. At any rate he's a good source for all things "O&W." The "Old and Weary" still has quite a few fans, by the way.
I don't see HOW it could have lasted another 19 years.
Discounting the trackage rights the O&W had on the New York Central's West Shore line to Weehawken NJ what tree68 said was correct, the O&W literally went from nowhere to nowhere, missing every major city in New York State, complicated story there. When the anthracite business started to dry up it really was all over but the shouting. They tried to make it as a bridge line but there was little luck there. As Don Ball said, "The O&W was a road that could not live."
If you're interested in the O&W there was a fine book on the 'road published in 1959 by William F. Helmer called "O&W (The long life and slow death of the New York, Ontario & Western Railway)" Fascinating book that tells the whole story.
I got mine from a rail hobby shop in Tappan, NY a few years ago. If you're interested here's the website: www.oldandwearycarshop.com
He had several copies in stock at the time, he may still have some if you're interested. At any rate he's a good source for all things "O&W."
The "Old and Weary" still has quite a few fans, by the way.
Yesterday, the wife and I (at her suggestion no less) stopped by the hobby shop in Des Moines. They had a large number of books on consignment. While looking through them I came across a copy of this book. It, and a few other gems I found, now reside in my library.
Jeff
A portion of 17/86 at Hancock (west of Cadosia) is built on the ROW of the O&W Scranton Branch, before it turned south to cross the west branch of the Delaware River and the Erie Railroad.
The general location of the Hawk's Mountain tunnel (east of Cadosia) can be seen from the highway, if you know where to look on the south side of the road. Both ends of the tunnel are collapsed/filled.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_17#Elmira_to_Harriman
From MP 87 to 101 seems to be the portion that followed the NYO&W.
Several other portions in the same segment, and in the . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_17#Pennsylvania_to_Elmira
segment, follow the former Erie RR.
I formerly used to travel on NY Route 17, a.k.a. "Future I-86," quite regularly. In several neighborhoods along the route the highway is on a huge embankment separating neighborhoods. And this was in a very rural community. Only years later I learned that these huge fills were the railroad beds of the NYO&W that NY State had acquired after its bankruptcy to build Route 17.
That, and the strange embankment that runs to one of the rest area buildings that has three rails embedded in it like barracade posts. I seem to remember this rest area has a river behind it, and to the west an abandoned NYO&W railroad bridge crosses the river.
Firelock76You know, it's kind of remarkable the long-dead "Old and Weary" still generates this much interest. I never thought this thread would go to two pages and 47 posts.
Well, you can forget about any commuter traffic down the old West Shore, now it's CSX's River Subdivision, and there's now way CSX is going to allow commuter trains on it's lines. They barely tolerate Amtrak.
The only close alternative would be the old Erie Northern Branch. There's been talk and talk and talk and talk about rehabbing it for light rail, but the NIMBY's from Tenafly NJ and points north (it used to run as far as Nyack, now stops at the NJ/NY border) threw fits over the proposal. It may run from Englewood to Hoboken if it ever gets built.
www.northernbranchcorridor.com
Check it out.
Commuters down the west side of the Hudson. Can't see it happening, even though it probably should.
On the other hand, with business being WAY down, maybe, just maybe, CSX would entertain the idea if there was enough money thrown at them to make it worth their while. It'd be a nice ride, at any rate.
daveklepper There has been talk of reviving Weehawken- Havastraw commuter service, but the money has not been forthcoming, yet.
There has been talk of reviving Weehawken- Havastraw commuter service, but the money has not been forthcoming, yet.
The tunnel has been appropriated by the light rail, and the Weehawken yards area have largely been redeveloped. It would seem that a connection to Hoboken would be more do-able.
NYO&W had filed for bankruptcy prior to WW2, Chapter 77 proceedings were usually long, drawn-out affairs. The opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway was more like the final nail in the coffin for O&W and probably didn't have that much effect on its traffic.
NYO&W’s demise was similar to Elvis Presley’s (“good career move”).
You know, it's kind of remarkable the long-dead "Old and Weary" still generates this much interest. I never thought this thread would go to two pages and 47 posts.
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