If you’re going to switching cars inside a big industry, like an automaker, refinery, chemical plant, paper mill or big food processor, with many specific spots for cars to be loaded or unloaded, what type of information or instructions would you get before you start working?
I know there are different answers depending on prototype industry/plant, but I would appreciate some examples.
Mattias
For a railroad switched industry the switch crew gets a switch list(s) from their yerdmaster showing the cars for the "setting" (as it was known on the BN). Most times the cars for the setting are on different yard tracks and the switch crew digs them out and arranges them in order for easier spotting at the industry.
The yardmaster may also have a list of "pulls" for the crew, or the industry may give the crew the list.
When arriving at the industry the switch foreman first goes to the person in charge of the loading dock at the industry. Many times door plates will have to be removed, hoses may have to be disconnected, etc. Sometimes a car marked as a pull isn't ready to go (not loaded yet or not unloaded yet) so it is left instead of being pulled. The industry may want a car at a particular spot, or cars in a certain order so the dock person will tell the switch foreman that. Once everything is clear and the industry has pulled their blue flags and wheel chocks the switch crew can start their work.
If an industry wants a car moved from one spot to another spot in the industry that's considered an in-plant switch, and the industry is charged for it.
Cars for an industry are cleaned and inspected by the railroad (or a contractor) before going to the yard (or yard track) serving that industry.
Many types of cars are in assigned service, some to a particular industry, others for specific service (paper loading for example). For mty cars, the industry will usually just request so many of a certain type of car when they send their switch order to the yardmaster. For example, the paper mill I used to switch would order X no. of "regular boxes" (70-ton capacity 50' plug door cars), Y no. of "high caps" (50' plug door cars upgraded with 100 ton capacity trucks), and Z no. of "high cubes" (the newer 50' plug door high cube cars like FBOX cars).
For loads to be spotted the industry may want certain cars depending on contents or how long the car has been in the yard (demurrage applies after a specified time so the cars that have been there the longest are typically swpotted first to get them off demurrage, or keep them from going on demurrage).
Typically, most industries are worked at the same time, or at least on the same shift, every day. For the paper mill in Duluth I mentioned previously they were switched twice a day, once on days, once on afternoons. For the afternoon switch they didn't want us there before 8:00 p.m. so the yardmaster arranged our work accordingly.
Kurt Hayek
Thanks for the answer, very informative.
One question, so it's up to the dock person to tell the switch forman if the industry want the tracks to be switched in a specific order. Otherwise it's up to the switch crew to switch the tracks in what order they se fit.
"One question, so it's up to the dock person to tell the switch foreman if the industry wants the tracks to be switched in a specific order. Otherwise it's up to the switch crew to switch the tracks in what order they see fit."
That is correct. The industry may have one track ready to switch but they are still working other tracks (loading or unloading cars) so we would do the one track first. Sometimes nothing is ready and we sit for a while (I've done that more than a few times).
If there is going to be a long delay we may go do other work in the area and return later, or the yardmaster might bring us in (by van) for a meal period if we are getting close to penalty lunch.
hubbabubba2 Thanks for the answer, very informative. One question, so it's up to the dock person to tell the switch forman if the industry want the tracks to be switched in a specific order. Otherwise it's up to the switch crew to switch the tracks in what order they se fit. Mattias
Wherever there are specific spots for specific products (this is normally referred to as a'closed gate' customer) - it is up to the Industry to specify which specific cars go to which specific spots and they will issue appropriate orders to the crew - taking care so as to no set up the liability for a intra-plant switch charge by ordering a car from one specific spot to another specific spot. However, progressive placement rules may apply on some tracks. (Progressive placement is where a track handles cars of the same product - [spot 1 nearest the locomotive - spot 5 furthest from the locomotive] spots 3, 4 & 5, have empties to be pulled - spots 1 & 2 have cars that are loaded or part loaded but can be moved - crew pulls the empties and places 3 new loads, shoving cars in spots 1 & 2 down to spots 4 & 5 and placing the new loads in spots 1, 2, & 3.)
Where there is a single product line and 'open' switching rules are in effect (also known as a 'open gate' customer), the industry will identify which cars are to be pulled and the crew will pull those cars and place inbound cars in their place with moves that require a minimum of switching. Open gate customers are obligated to accept all cars for them when the carrier shows up with them.
In large industries the act of swtiching the industry tracks shuts down the normal production cycle on those tracks until they are fully switched and given back to industry personnel and the Blue Flags and other protections are re-established; therefore most industries only want railroads doing their switching during periods when production is not in 'high gear'.
It is up to the Dock Personnel to communicate when the track(s) are safe to switch from the industry perspective and identify any changes that may be required from the switching instuctions the crew have from their carrier.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD—
I never heard of it referred to as "progressive spotting" but that's exactly what we did at the paper mill we switched in Duluth. The mill had two tracks at the paper loading shed, each with four spots in the building. The dock foreman would tell us which cars to pull, and which stayed. For example at "Door 1" (track 1) we might have to pull cars 1 and 3, and leave cars 2 and 4. We grabbed the whole track and pulled out to the main where we would switch out the "guts" (pulls) and set the holds back to the lead. We then shoved back to the spot with cars 2 and 4 first-in to the building plus the mty boxes following and spotted the cars, leaving four cars (the two holds plus two new mty boxes).
Door 4 at the mill was an example of an "open gate" spot: Here we usually just pulled two mty clay tanks and put two loads in their place. It was very rare to have just one of the two tanks to pull.
A few industries our local freights serve provide diagrams of the spots at their facilites. They will designate on the diagram which car, by initial/number, they want at each specific spot. They either fax it to the yard office where the local originates the instructions or leave a copy in a box at the entrance to the facility.
Jeff
Jeff—
We had that also for some industries, especially ones that were switched on nights when there was no one around to give us instructions.
Working industries at night had some challenges: nice because no one was in your way, but stumbling around in the dark was no joy, and if their spots weren't well marked it was guesswork figuring where to actually spot the cars.
sandiego Jeff— We had that also for some industries, especially ones that were switched on nights when there was no one around to give us instructions. Working industries at night had some challenges: nice because no one was in your way, but stumbling around in the dark was no joy, and if their spots weren't well marked it was guesswork figuring where to actually spot the cars. Kurt Hayek
Pretty much every 'plant/factory' switch job has its own requirements[Idiosyncrasies ?). I worked at a plant that had a single spuir track, approx 1/4 mile in length) Our dropped casrs were worked on the East end,( there were usually 2 to 3 cars dropped to be unloaded).
Because our switch crew came from Memphis to the west, they waited for their return trip to work our site. They turned back at Brownsville to go back to Leawood Yd. We had warnings they were in the area, because they ate lunch at our cafeteria, while their engine and train idled on our siding, to clear the mainline.
Over on the ICRR in North Memphis, They worked their industrial switching jobs in the evening; this kept the mainline clear for the " City of NO" to come thru on the 'Passenger main'. Most of the business that were switched used trackside mail boxes to pass the switch orders, and lists to the conductors on their jobs. Crude, but it worked.
Houston Ed could probably be a real good resource to tell you how they switch the industries around the Houston area... When it is dry!
Many shippers will email a list of cars needed to be worked to the rr that the condr will have with him and make copies for all crewmen. This shipper document could also be a fax with data as to what spots to place requested cars, respots, pulls,etc. BNSF Customer Service prefers shippers not to do this but most of them wisely ignore what the rr says anyway
SFbrkmn This shipper document could also be a fax with data as to what spots to place requested cars, respots, pulls,etc. BNSF Customer Service prefers shippers not to do this but most of them wisely ignore what the rr says anyway
This shipper document could also be a fax with data as to what spots to place requested cars, respots, pulls,etc. BNSF Customer Service prefers shippers not to do this but most of them wisely ignore what the rr says anyway
Interesting details, gives a much broder understanding of the work and how the plant personnel passes information to the rr-crew. And "progressive spotting" was news to me. I would have guesed that you'd have to put cars back at the same spot they came from.
Yes, many big plants around the Houston ship chanel. Would love to learn more about how they're switched. With the plants in production around the clock, I guese there would a lot of switching that needs to be coordinated with the plant personnel.
Dakguy201 SFbrkmn This shipper document could also be a fax with data as to what spots to place requested cars, respots, pulls,etc. BNSF Customer Service prefers shippers not to do this but most of them wisely ignore what the rr says anyway I don't think I understand why Customer Service would object to direct communication between the customer and the employees who are going to do the work. Are they afraid of switching surcharges not being imposed? Mere empire building by insisting they be involved? Something else?
Railroads want to get paid for the switching they do - without going through the proper channels intra-plant switches may be made 'under the table'; thus the carrier ends up performing a service for which it isn't getting paid.
The industry is entitled to one placement of a car within the authority of the freight bill. If the car is placed at an additional spot at the industry's direction, a intra-plant switch charge applies.
Closed gate industries that have 'Leased Tracks' and have all their inbound placed on the lease track upon arrival in the serving yard then pay an intra-plant switch charge to have the car placed in their plant - the placement on the lease track was the 'free' placement of the car. Leased tracks are generally obtained by HAZMAT customers, as the HAZMAT regulations perclude the carriers from holding HAZMAT on the carriers property until ordered into an industry. The Leased Track is normally a track in the serving yard that the customer has executed a legally proper lease agreement and thus the customer assumes liability for all cars that are on the Leased Track.
Local industrial traffic management has been known to try to pull every trick in the book, and a few that haven't made the book to avoid paying demmurrage and/or intra-plant switching charges. These charges are 'negligible' when considered against the entire shipping charges for the operation, however, paying them can be construed as inefficiency when the plant's traffic management has to explain them up their own chain of command.
This varies from railroad to railroad, and because I work for a switching/terminal road, our way of doing things are a little more intense, but...
Every train that comes to the PTRA passes several AEI scanners.
Once our clerks pull 2 scans that match, they load the "train sheet" as scanned into our computer.
Keep in mind all these cars have been ordered by customers weeks/ months in advance, so all the info on them is known, who they go to, and where in the plant the customer wanted the car, but that can change depending on the customers current needs or desires.
Cars that were destined for a specific track may become hold or storage cars by the time they arrive.
Or, conversly, cars that were hold or storage cars become spot cars or cars the customer wants staged for delivery.
Our customers have until 10 am the day before delivery to them to update the status of a car.
My job is to take inbound trains from our member lines, (BNSF, UP and KCS) and switch these cars into some paticular order.
We have two basic types of cars...those being "blocked", meaning they are going on to one of our other yards to be reswitched into a specific order and delivery to a customer, or "classified" meaning I put them in the order they go into the plants by either a specific place in the plant, or depending on the customer, no paticular order other than as a large group that the customer will move around inside their plant with their own switch crew.
Cars that are classified are assigned to a paticular yard track...everything in say, track 46 goes to Shell....and when I finish that track, the cars are in the order Shell last told us they needed them, that track will go straight out to Shell as it sits, along with other classified tracks of cars for the other plants that road crew will work.
Track 39 on the other hand, is a "block" track, everything in it is going to our Pasadena yard for more switching and sorting, so I can just kick them in there in no paticular order, they will move as a big block with other tracks going that way.
We have customers that require cars to be placed in different locations inside their facility, in a certain order, and customers who simply want the cars "just inside the gate" as a group...in reality, those customers have a spot track and a pull track...every inbound cars goes in the spot track, all the out bound, or pulls are in another track, makes it easy, shove some in, drag some out, close the gate on the way out.
An example of this type of customer would be VoPak...they store, blend and ship chemicals for the petrochemical industry, have a huge yard and switch crew...they just want the cars inside the spot track, as they may move them several times themselves during their process.
Other customers want a car under a specific rack or in a specific place....
When our computer system prints my switch list, the list shows what zone on my railroad the car goes to, what track it will spot on, and what specific spot on that track the car goes to.
We have a map, in book form, that shows every "spot" in every plant, every track, the track and zone numbers, and often the order the "spots" are in...some have the number one spot at the rear of a track, some have it at the front of a track.
This is where experience comes in handy.
Because I worked our extra board for a few years, I know where each spot is, and the order of the spots, so when switching out the cars in my yard, I can stack them in the order our road crews will place them, depending on which way the spur into the plant faces, railroad north or railroad south.
A few simple moves here in the yard can save a road crew a hour or more out in the plants.
When I build a train for my road crews, I put it together in the order the plants are worked...that may involve something simple as pull up the switch, make a cut on the cars going in, and shove back into the plant, or it may involve pulling up, cutting off from the train, running around the train and then shoving into the plant, again, it depends which way the switch faces...and I place the spot cars in the order the crew will have to place them.
The road crews get an updated list just before they pull out of the yard that shows where each car in their train goes, by zone, track and spot...if the car in question has no specific spot placement order, there is a code we use in place of a spot number that tells the crew "pretty much anywhere inside the plant".
Keep in mind most these crews, not only on my railroad, but on most carriers, have worked these places over and over, and already know where the customer will want the cars...
Before the widespread use of computers, all this paperwork was generated by clerks, written down by hand.
Most plants had blank copies of our forms, and a mail box just outside their gate, we would pull up, "get the mail" and figure out how to work the plant from that....we would compare the list we left the yard with to the new list from the customer, if nothing was changed, then we worked the plant from our paperwork, any changes would be noted, the move made, and when we got back to the yard, we would call the clerk that "worked" that plant and call in the changes, the clerk would add in the correct charges to the customers switch billing.
Of course, the process is much quicker today with computers, the mail boxes are long gone, as I said earlier, the customer can update their car placement right up to the day before delivery.
We still use paper list, it is pretty cheap, requires little work, but some carriers are introducing notepads and laptops in place of paper list, the conductor has to note changes as they happen, and the information is emailed in, but so far, it does not seem to be a wide spread trend....laptops and notepads can crash, paper on the other hand, well, you can just fold it up and stick it in a pocket for latter!
So, the whole process begins with yard crews working their lists and applying their knowledge, and ends with the road crews having an almost brand new list of who, where and how by the time they get to the plant.
Using the zone, track and spot information on his paperwork, a "new guy" with only a few months experience can figure out how to work a facility...he may make a few un-necessary moves doing so, but it is pretty easy to figure it out.
Most carriers have something like this, and of course protocall and tradition will allow them to work long time customers with ease.
23 17 46 11
These are two pages out of our ZTS, or Zone, Track and Spot book each crew member is issued,you can see the details a crew member would use to place a car.
An old switch list, you can see how much information it has, including what customer, what track and what spot the car is assigned to.
Ed, When I clicked on the right arrow on your Photobucket of p41, I found images of a schnauble (sp) car. It had what looked like ABB lettering on it which I presume is Asea Brown Bovari and for hauling large transformers and generators. What can you tell me about it. Is your railroad its home?
Yup, ABB is on the Brown lead, way back in the day, the Brown and Root folks had big industrial complex on the channel, right next door is the Brown Ship building complex, we serve the 15 or so customers in there, the place is now known as Greensport, it is where Greens Bayou meets the ship channel.
Side note, Brown built my Dad's WWII Destroyer Escort, the DE 419, which he served on during WWII, they sailed it to San Francisco for fitting out before service. They even sent out invitations to the launching of this and several other DEs.
ABB gets Schnauble cars all the time.
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7524811,-95.2024741,61m/data=!3m1!1e3
Zoom in and you can see one being staged into ABB.
ABB is the big group of buildings just above the group of white oil storage tanks.
Feel free to browse my Photobucket stuff, lots of odd cars, locomotives and stuff there.
So the 'Leased tracks' are always on railroad property? Are SIT-yards a variation of 'Leased tracks'? A collection of them?
How about the tracks on the plant property that looks like yard tracks, but might be called something else, like Lubrizol storage or some of all those tracks at Intercontinental on Eds ZTS pages. Are they an alternativ to 'Leased tracks', a complement to them, or are they used in another way?
Great post about all that needs to be sorted before the road crew can start working at the plant Ed.
Also god point about the crew knowing how the plant whant the switching done because they've done it before.
Looking at the pages from the ZTS (thanks for posting them, great sorce of info), I can't see any spots at the tracks. Is that because there arn't any at those particular industries (because they do the spotting them self?), are the spots not shown in the ZTS-maps or have I just missed them?
hubbabubba2 So the 'Leased tracks' are always on railroad property? Are SIT-yards a variation of 'Leased tracks'? A collection of them? How about the tracks on the plant property that looks like yard tracks, but might be called something else, like Lubrizol storage or some of all those tracks at Intercontinental on Eds ZTS pages. Are they an alternativ to 'Leased tracks', a complement to them, or are they used in another way? Mattias
Leased tracks come into play when customers do not possess sufficient track capacity of their own to handle all arriving HAZMAT in accordance with HAZMAT handling regulations. In some cases, customers may end up buying track(s) that they have previously leased from the railroad (as the railroad no longer has any use for it and would otherwise abandon the trackage).
Not every HAZMAT customer leases tracks, as they have sufficient trackage in their plant to handle all normal arrivals. If the customer anticipates a 'peak season' or gets 'the deal of the century' on a commodity and will be receiving the HAZMAT product well in excess of their plant's ability to store it, they will lease tracks for a period of time until their operation returns to normal. Needless to say, the carrier do charge the industries for the track(s) that get leased.
No spots, but there are cars assigned to most of the tracks shown, they just have no order to be in when spotted...and yes, all those customers have their own in house switch crews.
If you look at the switch list, lines 29 through 33 go to Vopak, see the the destination track, 798, and right next to it the spot order, which in this instance is SA, or "spot anywhere" on track 798.
Vopak has it's own crew, who pull all the cars they are releasing today and place them in track 799...the PTRA crew will shove all the inbound spots into tracks 798, and pull all the cars in 799....they will have pull orders on all the cars in the plant that have been released, but all those cars may not necessarly be in track 799...some may still be back under racks, with cars ahead of them still being loaded/unloaded, so the Vopak crew will not gather those up until they can get to them when the othr cars ahead are ready to be moved.
Our crew has a huge computer generated document that list all the released cars in Vopak, often over 100 of them, and as track 799 is pulled, we will hand write a train sheet listing the cars in order, north to south.
Some are empties, some loads of product bound for other places, but with the hand written list, and the huge hazmat document showing all the cars, we can creat our own train sheet showing placement in train, and have all the necessary documentation on load/empty, hazmat and placard code.
This allows Vopak to pretty much send out the cars they are done with, without having to install a fancy computer printer where we have access to it, and they can keep the cars in plant they are done with but can't move quite yet, satisfies the FRA requirements of a train sheet in exact order and hazmat info....these cars will go by a AEI scanner as we head back to the yard with them.
Low tech, some may think crude, but very efficent and fast, we don't have to hunt and peck all over Vopak looking for pull cars, Vopak gets rid of only the cars it wants to.
If an industry has its own switching operation, what kind of arrangements exist between your railroad and them to insure you don't interfere with one another and stay out of one another's work area?
Dakguy201 If an industry has its own switching operation, what kind of arrangements exist between your railroad and them to insure you don't interfere with one another and stay out of one another's work area?
Where a industry has it's own crew(s). There will either be designated track(s) where deliveries to and receipts from the industry will be transacted without any need to contact the industry or the Railroad crew must contact a specific employee position for permission to enter the plant.
edblysard No spots, but there are cars assigned to most of the tracks shown, they just have no order to be in when spotted...and yes, all those customers have their own in house switch crews. If you look at the switch list, lines 29 through 33 go to Vopak, see the the destination track, 798, and right next to it the spot order, which in this instance is SA, or "spot anywhere" on track 798.
Ok, that explains it. I wondered which info in the switch list was the spotting instruction too.
10th column from the left, next to the one that's says "Destination track"...If the car has a specific spot on that track it would note there by number, 01, 02, 03 so forth and so on.
Darkguy...most of the industries we serve get switched by us at pretty much the same time of the day for them and most have gates and derails, both locked with their lock.
With the exception of Solvay, and Greensport, their crews are not licensed, therefor they can't come out on PTRA tracks....because they already know about when we will show up, they usually get their work done and get back in the clear...and we have to call our dispatcher/yardmaster, have that person call the rail operations manager of the plant, and get permission to come in.
Once permission is granted, a designated person from the plant or one of their rail crew will un-lock and remove the derail, and un-lock and open the gates.
In most instances, the PTRA owns the switch and the first 20 to 50 feet of the track leading onto the plant, from that point on, the track belongs to the industry, so the gates and derails are their responsibility...I can't open a gate out here even if the plant guy says I can...if the gate keeper fails, (and they do) and the gate swings shut while we are shoving in, if I opened the gate, we just bought a gate and some fencing....keep in mind that most of the railroads guys are working assigned jobs, they do the same thing every day, and both they and the plant crews end up creating a routine...
Vopak gets worked by us around 4 o:clock every day, so their crew usually gets done around 3:30, and because we spot the same track every time, they will run their switch engine up, open the gate, drop the derail, go back, line us up for the spot track, and tuck their switch engine out of the way and go on with their other duties. They will call our yardmaster on the phone, tell him the gates are open, derail down and that we can come on in at our leisure...we go looking of course, but the same basic routine.
Most places, on my railroad and most of the other carriers will function pretty much the same way...they cant come out on our tracks, and we cant go in on theirs without permission.
So it's a combination of following the rules about who can go where, after geting permission, and finding a routine that works for both parties, like you've done with Vopak.
Do the Vopak crew (or any of the other in house switch crews) any blocking of the cars before you pull them, or do they just leave the cars in what ever order that's convenient to them?
Pretty much whatever order they fall in.
Once we get the cars back to one of our yards, we will switch them into cuts for BNSF, UP and KCS interchange...our "captive shippers" are only captive to us, once we get the car, we can send it out on any of our three member lines the customer wants.
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